"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ssj_duelist]

I'm sorry but wth have I just read?

So according to the manga, if ALL the Kaioshin die (Supreme Kais and Don Kaio, not the lesser Kais), then Beerus magically dies, and that explains why Beerus doesn't exist in the future timeline?!

That creates more issues than it solves. First of all, future Beerus not interfering could be a result of him being asleep or strait up not given a crap because Beerus is like that, especially a Beerus who has never met Goku and Vegeta. And secondly if Beerus was about to die by the hands of (lol) Dabura, why didn't he intervene? Why didn't he intervene when Bibidi was killing the Kaioshin? Why didn't Whis wake him up to intervene? Why didn't Whis intervene himself? This is a really bad retcon and I hope it stays far away from the anime and it a Toyotarism and not a Toriama thing.

[THEGOKU]

Honestly the problem seems to be there are too many transformations and in Super it just seems like they are going "Eh we haven't used SSJ3 in a while lets just do that one" I mean it is very very difficult to try and place all the powerlevels accurately. All the forms are a multiplier and I have to think of it this way. In the Cell Arc when Vegeta fought Perfect Cell he wasn't as strong as Goku when he fought Perfect Cell. Both were SSJ but Goku was just stronger within the same form so I kind of can see how Trunks can be that strong in his SSJ2 form without having gone SSJ3.

[Pannaliciour]

The power level problems started with ROF when Goku (base) matched the extreme powerfull final form freeza.

[ssj_duelist]

Looks like Beerus was asleep when Boo killed the Kaioshins, Whis was going to wake him up but he said that as long as the Kaioshin who was sealed (Elder Kaioshin) is alive, it will be fine.

This is a great explainer and I really like it but 1 thing, how did Old Kaioshin die? There is 0 reason that anyone would know he's in the sword. Unless Supreme Kai trained him with the sword.

[THEGOKU]

Looks like Beerus was asleep when Boo killed the Kaioshins, Whis was going to wake him up but he said that as long as the Kaioshin who was sealed (Elder Kaioshin) is alive, it will be fine.

This is a great explainer and I really like it but 1 thing, how did Old Kaioshin die? There is 0 reason that anyone would know he's in the sword. Unless Supreme Kai trained him with the sword.

That is the only thing we can assume at this point and it would make sense for him but again the Z-Sword was on their planet stuck in the ground and couldn't be removed so the battle would of had to take place there which it did not and I can't see any reason Old Kaioshin would go to earth. After all it could be that Beerus isn't dead in Trunk's timeline and just never came to earth because he didn't need to since Goku was already dead.

[GodVegetto91]

The power level problems started with ROF when Goku (base) matched the extreme powerfull final form freeza.

No it didn't. It was PERFECT at the time if you assume Base=SSJ God. The powerlevels truly started getting messed up by the U6 arc when Where they so needlessly needed to turn regular Super Saiyan all of a sudden.

[HeroR]

The power level problems started with ROF when Goku (base) matched the extreme powerfull final form freeza.

No it didn't. It was PERFECT at the time if you assume Base=SSJ God. The powerlevels truly started getting messed up by the U6 arc when Where they so needlessly needed to turn regular Super Saiyan all of a sudden.

It wasn't needlessly. It just showed that the U6 fighters are stronger than a normal Super Saiyan God, just like Golden Freeza, but not as strong as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, Toriyama said in an interview that Goku will work on improving his base and normal Super Saiyan form, Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan fits with what Toriyama said.

Also, Black being the strongest in Trunks' timeline doesn't makes sense since Whis should still be around, and he's stronger than Beerus. So by explaining Beerus' absent, it raises several more questions. Like, is Zen-O aware that all the gods in U7 are dead? Shouldn't there be new fruit from the true that the Supreme Kais grow on since all the Kais are dead? Old Kai should still be alive since he's stuck in a sword and no one said he was ever freed.

[GodVegetto91]

Wait was it actually mentioned that Beerus died in the future? That doesn't make any sense. Since i see no reason for Old Kaioshin to have been killed bu Buu considering he was still locked up inside the Z Sword.

[kinisking]

The power level problems started with ROF when Goku (base) matched the extreme powerfull final form freeza.

No it didn't. It was PERFECT at the time if you assume Base=SSJ God. The powerlevels truly started getting messed up by the U6 arc when Where they so needlessly needed to turn regular Super Saiyan all of a sudden.

It wasn't needlessly. It just showed that the U6 fighters are stronger than a normal Super Saiyan God, just like Golden Freeza, but not as strong as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, Toriyama said in an interview that Goku will work on improving his base and normal Super Saiyan form, Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan fits with what Toriyama said.

Also, Black being the strongest in Trunks' timeline doesn't makes sense since Whis should still be around, and he's stronger than Beerus. So by explaining Beerus' absent, it raises several more questions. Like, is Zen-O aware that all the gods in U7 are dead? Shouldn't there be new fruit from the true that the Supreme Kais grow on since all the Kais are dead? Old Kai should still be alive since he's stuck in a sword and no one said he was ever freed.

I disagree. That was definitely the point where everything got fucked. If frost was so strong, then piccolo should've been demolished. I don't care if he was tired. Freeza was tired after that spirit bomb but could've destroyed everyone and that was a smaller power difference. Also, why the hell is cabbe so strong then? Not even a super saiyan but somehow he's stronger than a ssg. Then comes future trunks arc which is even worse. There is no way in hell future trunks could come even close to Goku or Goku black if they're ssg or higher.

[Kishido]

Here again... Why is Future Beerus dead if Elder Kai is sealed away? In the future there was no Gohan to break him free

Further more... Why do U7 has 5 Kaioshins or with Elder Kai 6 of them... and U10 for example just 1 so far?

[HeroR]

I disagree. That was definitely the point where everything got fucked. If frost was so strong, then piccolo should've been demolished. I don't care if he was tired. Freeza was tired after that spirit bomb but could've destroyed everyone and that was a smaller power difference. Also, why the hell is cabbe so strong then? Not even a super saiyan but somehow he's stronger than a ssg. Then comes future trunks arc which is even worse. There is no way in hell future trunks could come even close to Goku or Goku black if they're ssg or higher.

First, Freeza was using only half of his power when he was hit by the Spirit Bomb. Also, despite being hurt, it was never said he was tired or had a massive drop in energy. Frost specifically said that he was low on energy and he treated Piccolo with kid gloves because he underestimated him, something Piccolo lampshaded. If Frost really wanted to kill Piccolo, he probably could, but that wasn't his goal, while Freeza was ready to murder everyone.

Cabba is strong because he is strong. U6 Saiyans evolved differently from their U7 counterparts, like not having tails, which Toriyama said makes Saiyans stronger like Goten and Trunks. So the Saiyans from U6 don't have to follow the same power line as their U7 counterparts since there is already key differences between the two races.

Finally, Trunks was never shown or said to be as strong as Goku in any form. Super Saiyan 2 Goku did nothing against Trunks and just blocked all his attacks before easily catching his fists. We also saw Black easily take down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in a flashback, while Super Saiyan 2 Goku fought evenly with Black. So Trunks has never been shown to be as strong as even Ultimate Gohan.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Here again... Why is Future Beerus dead if Elder Kai is sealed away? In the future there was no Gohan to break him free

If you want a solid answer, you're going to have to wait. Present Whis reveals that the Hakaishin and the Kaioshin share a life connection, and goes on to say the God of Destruction is likely dead in the future after Trunks mentions Kaioshin died against Dabra. Those are the facts we have. We don't have the entire chapter for the full context, if there even is any more.

Present Kaioshin didn't know the Elder Kaioshin was stuck in the Z Sword. Chances are that the Kaioshin in the future didn't know either. If he and Trunks didn't fiddle with it (or at the very least didn't break it), Beerus would remain alive...but you can't expect present Whis to know the full details of what did or didn't happen based on what little we know Trunks tells him.

[ssj_duelist]

The U6 characters bar Hit are not anywhere near God level or even final form Frieza. Them transforming massively screwed up power continuity.

[sintzu]

I try not to understand power levels in Super anymore.

I've never payed much attention to power levels in general but it's hard to ignore something this big.

I'd be OK with it if it happened when he thought Mai was killed for a moment but for him to be normally this powerful doesn't make any sense at all.

[kinisking]

I disagree. That was definitely the point where everything got fucked. If frost was so strong, then piccolo should've been demolished. I don't care if he was tired. Freeza was tired after that spirit bomb but could've destroyed everyone and that was a smaller power difference. Also, why the hell is cabbe so strong then? Not even a super saiyan but somehow he's stronger than a ssg. Then comes future trunks arc which is even worse. There is no way in hell future trunks could come even close to Goku or Goku black if they're ssg or higher.

First, Freeza was using only half of his power when he was hit by the Spirit Bomb. Also, despite being hurt, it was never said he was tired or had a massive drop in energy. Frost specifically said that he was low on energy and he treated Piccolo with kid gloves because he underestimated him, something Piccolo lampshaded. If Frost really wanted to kill Piccolo, he probably could, but that wasn't his goal, while Freeza was ready to murder everyone.

Cabba is strong because he is strong. U6 Saiyans evolved differently from their U7 counterparts, like not having tails, which Toriyama said makes Saiyans stronger like Goten and Trunks. So the Saiyans from U6 don't have to follow the same power line as their U7 counterparts since there is already key differences between the two races.

Finally, Trunks was never shown or said to be as strong as Goku in any form. Super Saiyan 2 Goku did nothing against Trunks and just blocked all his attacks before easily catching his fists. We also saw Black easily take down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in a flashback, while Super Saiyan 2 Goku fought evenly with Black. So Trunks has never been shown to be as strong as even Ultimate Gohan.

Eh, maybe Freeza was a bad example but still. The power level difference was too big. Also piccolo was blocking frosts punches with one hand. You think frost would have taken it more seriously.

Okay, I'll give you that one.

In the manga he's apparently as strong as ss3 goku. That's ridiculous even if you don't consider base form equals ssg. In anime, he was weaker but goku was struggling to block his attack using 4 fingers. But back in the Android arc he was able to block it with one finger easily in the same form. For black are you referring to episode 51? It's debatable whether or not he was ss2 because we don't know when he achieved the form. Also black said trunks gave him some trouble, so trunks was close enough, even if black was stronger

[jjgp1112]

The thing to remember with SSJ3 is that it's kind of a bizarre, supernatural form that Goku could only achieve in a dead body that doesn't have "real" ki, and Gotenks in a magical fusion. When Goku tries to do it in a living body he winds up wrecking it. So I think it stands to reason that even if Trunks and Vegeta can't actually reach Super Saiyan 3, they can build up their strength enough that they can match its Super Saiyan 2. Obviously that would require absurd leaps in training, but we've seen far more extreme cases of that throughout Dragon Ball anyway.

[jplaya2023]

trunks SSJ2 hair should be sharper on the ends and they should be more split tips. I'm not complaining although the manga version of his ssj2 is superior to the anime version.

did this chapter show vegeta training trunks?

[Grimlock]

trunks SSJ2 hair should be sharper on the ends and they should be more split tips. I'm not complaining although the manga version of his ssj2 is superior to the anime version.

Indeed, the manga is not correct but it's way better than the anime. Gotta give some credits to Toyotaro for that.

EDIT: FINALLY! The manga is "out"! Goku and Trunks fight was done so much better (with Trunks with the "proper" hair as Super Saiyan 2)!

Can't wait for the translation.

[HeroR]

Eh, maybe Freeza was a bad example but still. The power level difference was too big. Also piccolo was blocking frosts punches with one hand. You think frost would have taken it more seriously.

Okay, I'll give you that one.

In the manga he's apparently as strong as ss3 goku. That's ridiculous even if you don't consider base form equals ssg. In anime, he was weaker but goku was struggling to block his attack using 4 fingers. But back in the Android arc he was able to block it with one finger easily in the same form. For black are you referring to episode 51? It's debatable whether or not he was ss2 because we don't know when he achieved the form. Also black said trunks gave him some trouble, so trunks was close enough, even if black was stronger

Piccolo was only able to block because Frost went easy on him, Piccolo got on Frost about. If Frost had taking Piccolo seriously, he could have KO him with one powerful attack. He didn't because he figure why go all out on an inferior opponent. That logic can be used on any villain like why didn't 60 million Freeza flattered 3 million Goku on hit, even after he exhausted himself using the Kaio-Ken X20.

Who as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Goku didn't struggle with Trunks at all and grin when Trunks attacked him.

Black was also said in the anime to be as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Both Goku and Black held back when they fought. We also know Trunks gained Super Saiyan 2 some time after he beat Dabura, so he did challenge Black as a Super Saiyan 2 and lost. Trunks only gave Black trouble because he kept running away before he could kill him. The same as the manga.

[Ajay]

Wow, that was a very long chapter.

Toyotaro almost certainly put more emphasis on the end of the chapter, as the art in the opening few pages seemed to be quite far below his usual standard.

Considering how good the rest of it looked, I think I'm okay with that.

Be interesting to see how much the chapter differs dialogue-wise from the anime. You know, aside from the craziness that we've already heard.