The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Because only a Super Saiyan 2 and above was able to fight Boo without being instantly wrecked? And yes, I know that Boo's power fell after he expelled his evil, but still. I doubt Goten has the discipline or heart for battle (like Goku, Vegeta and other veteran warriors) needed to even transform into a Super Saiyan 2. And we can't just assume that because Goten achieved Super Saiyan with no rage trigger, then he can achieve Super Saiyan 2 with no rage trigger as well. Gohan only managed to ascend to Super Saiyan 2 after getting pissed off enough at the Cell Games.

But are we entirely confident that a rage trigger is essential for that transformation? While that's certainly how Gohan reached it, the fact that both Goku and Vegeta both reached it independently in the time since (while under relatively unknown circumstances, I'll admit) seems to suggest that rage is not the only means with which to do it. The larger part of the equation would appear to be strenuous training. The first stage of Super Saiyan DOES seem to require an emotional component, but 2 and especially 3 appear to be somewhat "unlocked" via the original transformation, to be gained by motivated individuals who push their limits.

Goten doesn't have the discipline, no. That's why he slacks off like he does. But had he bothered to keep up his training, I see no reason why he shouldn't have been able to advance like other Saiyans have before him.

You're right, a rage trigger may not be essential for the transformation, and someone's probably going to come up with quotes from the Daizenshuu soon. But I just see it as Goku and Vegeta being exceptionally talented martial artists, and Gohan being a special case, due to his anger boosting his power and all. Goten and Trunks are just riding on inborn power that was already there for them. I'm not as sure that they'd be able to reach Super Saiyan 2 like the others.

Then again, maybe it's just my annoyance at them being able to reach regular Super Saiyan in the first place, and the possibility of Super Saiyan 2 for them would just be taking the piss.

Either way, I never looked at Goku's comment to mean that if Goten had trained, he'd be able to match or even defeat Boo. Perhaps he just meant that Goten wouldn't be massacred as badly if he trained.

[p123]

The real problem comes when Piccolo says that Oob vs Goku will determine everything, as well as Goku saying that it's possible that Oob would win the tournament. Goku seems to confirm that Oob is that powerful when he quits against him. It's possible that rage burst was Kid Boo's full power.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The real problem comes when Piccolo says that Oob vs Goku will determine everything, as well as Goku saying that it's possible that Oob would win the tournament. Goku seems to confirm that Oob is that powerful when he quits against him. It's possible that rage burst was Kid Boo's full power.

Piccolo doesn't say that. He only says that it'll be the most notable fight this time around. Which could mean that he too has sensed Oob's potential, knows that this kid will throw out some surprises and may be enough of a star talent to capture Goku's attention as a new challenge.

And Goku doesn't actually know how strong Oob is. He can sense his ki, but he knows that it's suppressed, and can only sense the potential within him. So he can only tell that Oob has a great deal of latent power inside him, but as he fights him, he realizes that he doesn't know how to use his full potential.

Goku only quit against Oob because he knew how unpolished his ability was, and he wanted to train him to use his hidden power so he could have a real fight with him.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P2.4-8
Context: Vegeta asks Goku why he’s entering the next Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku: “Because someone’s entering who seems incredible! I’ve had my eye on him for awhile, and he came to the tournament grounds this morning.”
Vegeta: “What!? …I don’t feel any ki that strong…”
Goku: “He’s completely suppressing his ki now. ..But somehow I can tell…That he’s definitely strong…”

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P6.4-5
Context: as Goku and Oob are about to fight
Piccolo: “This will be the most notable fight this time around…”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? How about we live together at my house and I’ll teach you!”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P13.6
Goku: “Hey, Oob. Once your training is complete, we’ll have a match again, properly this time! [ ] To tell the truth, this is my number one objective!”

[p123]

Goku expects Oob to possibly be the strongest at the tournament.

Goku says that Oob is as amazing as he expected.

[CatouttaHell]

Oob's true ability is probably equal to Pure Boo's power. Goku wanted to feel that power to be sure Oob is who he thinks he is.

Since he knew from the start that Oob was stronger than everyone in the universe but Vegeta and Gohan by virtue of being able to fight his base form equally I don't see what else it could be.

Oob is probably a Ma Junior and Piccolo Daimao situation where the reincarnation is just as powerful as the old version and will eventually completely eclipse his former self IMO.

If even a base form character can topple . . . well, any form of Boo, then that would basically have been Goku admitting that Goten is impossibly weak. Which I doubt.

Goten really isn't that powerful, and that's coming from someone who thinks Goten (Post-RoSaT) being able to one-shot Vegeta (Pre) is plausible.

It's basically flat-out stated that Goten slacked for at least most of the 10 year gap due to the Earth being in peace and probably didn't increase that much, if at all.

The fact that Goten thinks he can't possibly beat Good Boo while Base Goku holds his own against someone far stronger than Good Boo suggests Goten is incredibly weak and irrelevant by that time unfortunately.

[FNF]

Either way, I never looked at Goku's comment to mean that if Goten had trained, he'd be able to match or even defeat Boo. Perhaps he just meant that Goten wouldn't be massacred as badly if he trained.

I don't know how you interpreted Goku's comment like that.
This;
Goku: “It’s only a problem because you keep slacking off in your training.”
..basically means this;
Goku: "He would have been no problem for you if you had kept training hard".


Also you basically countered yourself by posting the quote where Goku says Oob was as good as he expected.
Enraged Oob ~ Kid Buu.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I'm not as sure that they'd be able to reach Super Saiyan 2 like the others.

I get calling them lazy, because for the most part... they are. But saying that they're flat-out incapable? I dunno if I can go along with that. Even just Gotenks kinda validates that the ability is at least there.

Goten really isn't that powerful, and that's coming from someone who thinks Goten (Post-RoSaT) being able to one-shot Vegeta (Pre) is plausible.

It's basically flat-out stated that Goten slacked for at least most of the 10 year gap due to the Earth being in peace and probably didn't increase that much, if at all.

The fact that Goten thinks he can't possibly beat Good Boo while Base Goku holds his own against someone far stronger than Good Boo suggests Goten is incredibly weak and irrelevant by that time unfortunately.

But "weak and irrelevant" in what context? The context that Super Saiyan 1 is almost completely pointless, even so far back as the Boo arc? Yeah, that's pretty much true. But even if Goten hadn't trained particularly hard, he must have trained at least some, and even disputing that I can't imagine that he somehow got weaker.

Speaking for Goku having fought with someone "far stronger" than Good Boo, well... call me crazy, but I just don't see it. There's no denying that Oob simply IS, or at least has the potential to be, as strong or stronger than Boo... but are we really given indication that Oob displayed that kind of power at the tournament? Or was Goku simply impressed because Oob fights in a way-- far beyond normal human capacity-- that validates his identity and SUGGESTS his true ability? This may be a personal qualm with me, and I welcome anyone who wants to offer clear evidence to the contrary, but I have never been given much reason to consider that End-of-Z Goku in base ever managed to match SSj Goku (Namek) in power. And if that's the case, then there's no way Oob could possibly be on the level of Good Boo-- if he were, base Goku wouldn't simply have been impressed, he'd have been humiliated.

All this is saying, though, for me anyway, is that Good Boo is still plenty relevant. Base Goku being enough to combat with any Boo-level strength is ridiculous overpowering (to me, anyway), and therefore Goten is stronger and more "relevant" than he's given credit for as a result.

But still. What do the rest of you think? o_O


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

This may be a personal qualm with me, and I welcome anyone who wants to offer clear evidence to the contrary, but I have never been given much reason to consider that End-of-Z Goku in base ever managed to match SSj Goku (Namek) in power.
...
But still. What do the rest of you think? o_O

I'm inclined to agree with you. But be careful, though. It's dangerous thinking in some parts to NOT consider the Boo-arc base Saiyans to be more powerful than Freeza, Piccolo, Semiperfect Cell, and Kaioshin combined.

Agreed about Oob, as well. Did he actually portray Kid Boo / Super Saiyan 3 levels of power at the 28th Tournament? Extremely doubtful. Did he show whatever was needed for Goku to recognize that potential and know without a doubt that he was Boo's reincarnation? Definitely.

[In Brightest Day]

I sense a shit storm brewing.

I wholeheartedly agree with you though, Lemmy.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I'm inclined to agree with you. But be careful, though. It's dangerous thinking in some parts to NOT consider the Boo-arc base Saiyans to be more powerful than Freeza, Piccolo, Semiperfect Cell, and Kaioshin combined.

Well, I mean... of course everyone is entitled to his own opinion. That's just mine.

I've just never seen anything that points to that, is all. People especially like to bloat Goku's base form to all kinds of SSj levels at the end of Z, but from a realistic viewpoint I don't understand how or why they do it. Is it because it's ten years later? I guess I see that aspect of it, but that's ten years of what? Training on earth, with no worthwhile sparring partners or overwhelming cataclysmic threat? What gains could he possibly get from "peacetime" training like that? Nothing significant, I would surmise, and certainly nothing mindblowing that would put his base form on par with Buu or Cell or even Freeza. Because then... well, crap. That's just total haxx. Even if you ignore that it's just such an illogical increase, just consider instead that the Super Saiyan multipliers would kick in-- suddenly Son Goku would equate to the second coming of Jesus Christ. (Y'know, like in GT.)

It just doesn't make any sense. SSj Goku (Namek) is logically ahead of any non-fused Saiyan's base form right up 'til the last day of Z, because the alternative flies in the face of how I understand training and Super Saiyan to work. But again, that's just me. And I'm all for hearing other opinions on the subject.

Agreed about Oob, as well. Did he actually portray Kid Boo / Super Saiyan 3 levels of power at the 28th Tournament? Extremely doubtful. Did he show whatever was needed for Goku to recognize that potential and know without a doubt that he was Boo's reincarnation? Definitely.

That is precisely how I see it.

I sense a shit storm brewing.

I wholeheartedly agree with you though, Lemmy.

No shitstorm. Just havin' a conversation, just havin' a conversation. o_O


~Da Lemmy

[FNF]

Well, I mean... of course everyone is entitled to his own opinion. That's just mine.

I've just never seen anything that points to that, is all. People especially like to bloat Goku's base form to all kinds of SSj levels at the end of Z, but from a realistic viewpoint I don't understand how or why they do it. Is it because it's ten years later? I guess I see that aspect of it, but that's ten years of what? Training on earth, with no worthwhile sparring partners or overwhelming cataclysmic threat? What gains could he possibly get from "peacetime" training like that? Nothing significant, I would surmise, and certainly nothing mindblowing that would put his base form on par with Buu or Cell or even Freeza. Because then... well, crap. That's just total haxx. Even if you ignore that it's just such an illogical increase, just consider instead that the Super Saiyan multipliers would kick in-- suddenly Son Goku would equate to the second coming of Jesus Christ. (Y'know, like in GT.)

It just doesn't make any sense. SSj Goku (Namek) is logically ahead of any non-fused Saiyan's base form right up 'til the last day of Z, because the alternative flies in the face of how I understand training and Super Saiyan to work. But again, that's just me. And I'm all for hearing other opinions on the subject.

That is precisely how I see it.

I'm just going say it as simply as I possibly can by using circular logic.

In the Buu saga base Goku is implied to be slightly stronger than Yakon correct?
Now Kaioshin was strong enough to wipe out Freeza in a single blow right?
So since Kaioshin was trying to convince Goku to fight Yakon together, that implies that Yakon might have been too strong for Kaioshin to handle alone.

We are now left with;
Base Goku=>Yakon>Kaioshin>>>Freeza

It is more illogical to believe Freeza>Base Saiyans by the Buu saga (or even post RoSaT imo) than vice versa.

[Rocketman]

I've just never seen anything that points to that, is all. People especially like to bloat Goku's base form to all kinds of SSj levels at the end of Z, but from a realistic viewpoint I don't understand how or why they do it. Is it because it's ten years later? I guess I see that aspect of it, but that's ten years of what? Training on earth, with no worthwhile sparring partners or overwhelming cataclysmic threat? What gains could he possibly get from "peacetime" training like that? Nothing significant, I would surmise, and certainly nothing mindblowing that would put his base form on par with Buu or Cell or even Freeza.

Seems as though the Lemmy has met MOUNTAIN TRAINING.

[Kaboom]

So since Kaioshin was trying to convince Goku to fight Yakon together, that implies that Yakon might have been too strong for Kaioshin to handle alone.
We are now left with;
Base Goku=>Yakon>Kaioshin>>>Freeza

Ah, but there's a few kinks which make that not as simple as it seems. The Ki of Bobbidi's mind-slave minions is difficult or impossible to sense, as first noted with Spopovich, then indicated again when Goku uses air currents to detect Yakon rather than sensing his Ki. So if Yakon's Ki can't be sensed, then Kaioshin can only guess how powerful he, or any of Bobbidi's minions, really is. Given his fear of anything and everything related to Majin Boo, he would be very likely to over-estimate their power. Whereas the Saiyans decided to test them by actually fighting, and... well, won. Quite handily.

Given that Kaioshin is considered and confirmed to be stronger than Piccolo, who was only a few steps behind the Super Saiyans even as recently as the Cell Games... it's just as arguable that Kaioshin is likewise not actually too far behind them either.

There's always multiple viable explanations for these sort of things...

[Nineteen]

I tend to agree with the consensus: neither Goku's Base form, nor any of the base Saiyans, ever reached the level of power demonstrated by SSJ Goku circa Namek. My line of reasoning is this: if Goku's power inflation carried on right through to the end of the series, it would have had to have been present during the training for the arrival of the Androids. Not only 17 and 18 but also 19 and 20 would have, under this scenario, been much more powerful than Freeza. But all the indication suggests they were individually around that level, and that the training the characters engaged in for that battle netted them only modest gains, with the exception of Piccolo, who has always seemed to benefit the most from training.

[CatouttaHell]

But "weak and irrelevant" in what context? The context that Super Saiyan 1 is almost completely pointless, even so far back as the Boo arc? Yeah, that's pretty much true. But even if Goten hadn't trained particularly hard, he must have trained at least some, and even disputing that I can't imagine that he somehow got weaker.

I never said he got weaker. I don't believe Ki can atrophy so I have him a good amount stronger.

Speaking for Goku having fought with someone "far stronger" than Good Boo, well... call me crazy, but I just don't see it. There's no denying that Oob simply IS, or at least has the potential to be, as strong or stronger than Boo... but are we really given indication that Oob displayed that kind of power at the tournament? Or was Goku simply impressed because Oob fights in a way-- far beyond normal human capacity-- that validates his identity and SUGGESTS his true ability?

Oob was already displaying power far beyond normal human capacity before his rage burst at the end.

Goku called that power his "true ability" and only then was sure that Oob was just as strong as Pure Boo. Considering both of those factors I don't see how that final burst couldn't be equal to Pure Boo.

Oob being just as strong as Pure Boo in the beginning and then surpassing him by a large margin makes a lot more sense than him just one day reaching his level IMO.

He's supposed to be the next hero so he should be able to leave even Ultimate Gohan and SSjin 3 Gotenks in the dust eventually.

This may be a personal qualm with me, and I welcome anyone who wants to offer clear evidence to the contrary, but I have never been given much reason to consider that End-of-Z Goku in base ever managed to match SSj Goku (Namek) in power. And if that's the case, then there's no way Oob could possibly be on the level of Good Boo-- if he were, base Goku wouldn't simply have been impressed, he'd have been humiliated.

No offence but Base Saiya-jins not even surpassing SSjin Goku is pretty contradictory IMO.

• Base Goten and Trunks fight evenly with #18 in a clownsuit.
• Gohan and Vegeta are confident staying in base for the whole Budoukai despite Piccolo being there.
• Kaioshin is stated to be worlds above Freeza and even Piccolo and yet is freaked out at the power of the Base Saiya-jins and is scared of Yakon and Pui-Pui.
• Kaioshin thinks he's below the Saiya-jins from the very beginning, and then implies that the power Base Vegeta used to kill Pui-Pui blew his expectations out of the water.
• Babidi senses Piccolo and the Saiya-jins and considers Piccolo trash compared to them just based off of their base strength.
• Kuririn and Yamucha think Base Gotenks (Pre) can beat the same guy who SSjin 2 Demon Prince Vegeta couldn't do anything against. Gotenks even manages to survive his encounter with Boo unlike Vegeta.
• Base Gotenks (Post) completely blows Piccolo's expectations for SSjin Gotenks' improvements in the RoSaT out of the water.
• Base Gohan (Post-Z Sword) swings the Z Sword around with much more ease than he did in SSjin 2 before.
• Goku thinks a guy who he can fight evenly in base could beat him and Good Boo. Piccolo thinks Base Goku vs. Oob will be the most important match of the Tenkaichi Budoukai.

Not only 17 and 18 but also 19 and 20 would have, under this scenario, been much more powerful than Freeza.

Piccolo thought that #19 and #20 were the same guys who the guy who one-shotted a much stronger version of Freeza was scared of.

Piccolo > Dr. Gero (Post) > Dr. Gero (Pre) > SSjin Trunks > Mecha-Freeza >= SSjin Goku (Namek) seems heavily implied IMO.

Ah, but there's a few kinks which make that not as simple as it seems. The Ki of Bobbidi's mind-slave minions is difficult or impossible to sense, as first noted with Spopovich, then indicated again when Goku uses air currents to detect Yakon rather than sensing his Ki. So if Yakon's Ki can't be sensed, then Kaioshin can only guess how powerful he, or any of Bobbidi's minions, really is.

That would work if he didn't say they needed to gang up on him after seeing Yakon's movements.

Nothing really suggests Kaioshin is that powerful. He already thought he was below Goku before he even met him, and implied that the power Vegeta used to beat Pui-Pui was by far beyond anything he had expected.

I'd honestly go as far as to say Pui-Pui > Estimated Base Saiya-jins > Kaioshin is heavily implied personally.

[Fox666]

Piccolo thought that #19 and #20 were the same guys who the guy who one-shotted a much stronger version of Freeza was scared of.

Actually the strength of no.20 was questioned many times in the course of the story.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow….Was it that you weren’t was as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

So it doesn't necessarily means that Trunks couldn't defeat these androids.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm not as sure that they'd be able to reach Super Saiyan 2 like the others.

I get calling them lazy, because for the most part... they are. But saying that they're flat-out incapable? I dunno if I can go along with that. Even just Gotenks kinda validates that the ability is at least there.

Yeah, I guess you're right. If they trained their asses off like Goku and Vegeta, perhaps they could reach Super Saiyan 2 and perhaps Goku's right about Goten having a chance against Mr. Boo if he trained. I'll admit it's not a theory I like, though. I still think that Goten and Trunks don't have as much potential as Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, because they're riding on inborn power and have Super Saiyan already unlocked for them at the beginning, and the only reason Gotenks managed to reach Super Saiyan 3 was because he was a magical Fusion.

No offence but Base Saiya-jins not even surpassing SSjin Goku is pretty contradictory IMO.

No, you find it contradictory. Your interpretations of certain scenes and lines don't go for everyone.

[p123]

I think GT definitely took the Base Goku > Good Boo implication from the End of Z and ran with it.

That's probably where they got the idea to make Base Goku GT > Kid Boo.

[Fox666]

I think GT didn't took anything. Like the fillers and movies, the saiyans in their regular state are almost strong as their Super Saiyan selves.

[p123]

That's probably where they got the idea to make the Saiyans so strong though. Whether they interpreted correctly or incorrectly is irrelevant, but I think that makes sense regarding their thinking process.

GT seems to be going by a 2.5x boost since Base Goku wasn't using even half of his power when he transformed into Super Saiyan against General Rild.