"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I've mixed feelings for DB-. Bardock doesn't feel like the Bardock we know for so long, and it doesn't add anything other than some backstory. The TV Special is far better IMO, but DB- will be what's canon to the manga for me, because I don't like choosing what's canon because I simply like it.

Counting the guidebooks, more pretty major inconsistencies arise when you try and work with all the numbers: Goku's official birth year and stated age (737+3), Bluma's stated age and birth year (733+5), DB taking place 10 years after Jaco, and even planet Vegeta being destroyed during Beerus' 39 year nap. No matter how you slice it, things just won't add up correctly.

I'll just ignore the guidebooks on that. Besides, this is based in the TV Special, not in DB-, so I'm fine.

Episode of Bardock is likely contradicted in that Bardock doesn't go through the events of the TV Special. Granted that may not be required, as Episode of Bardock really only needs 3 things to fit with references made in it: Bardock's outfit, challenging Freeza above planet Vegeta, and losing his squad at the hands of Freeza's men. Of those three, two are completely possible. Bardock has a different outfit when we see him, but that was a month before the planet is attacked. Since Toriyama doesn't depict the showdown in DB-, he could easily fly up there and challenge Freeza too. But, DB- seems to imply that Toma, Selypa, Panbukin and Totepo don't exist. It's only a month before they are destroyed and Bardock is called back from his mission with a completely different partner by his side...

Well, even though EoB is promoted to be the TV Special's sequel, it barely has any references to it. It even contradicts it, since the confrontation with Freeza is very different, and we see Bardock remembering some random Saiyans being killed by Freeza's men instead of his own men, which never happened in the TV Special. There is also no mention of Bardock having the ability to see the future. There is only Bardock attacking to Freeza, which is also something we see in the manga.

As for Bardock's armor & his fight against Freeza, it has to happen, EoB or not, since we see it in the manga. Besides, there is no issue with Bardock changing armor, since the one he wears in DB- is battle damaged, and 1 month passed between DB- & Planet Vegeta's destruction.

So, I'll stick with the EoB as manga canon for me, because it is a manga from Ooishi, and because it was covered in Chozenshuu #1. So, until it gets contradicted, it's canon for me. DB- will also be in my manga canon, because it's written by Toriyama, while the TV Special is on the same level as fillers, aka part of my anime canon.

I also notice that Freeza's been getting a lot of focus in recent material: the 2008 special focuses on the fall of his empire and two of his former minions, EOB features his ancestor Chilled and the beginnings of his organization, BOG features a flashback of his fight with Goku and Beerus repeatedly mentioning him, Toriyama recently elaborated a bit more on his family's history in a recent interview, and now here he is in DB Minus. Yet ironically we still know next to nothing about his family and backstory, while we keep getting all of this material on the saiyans.

Freeza was always getting extra focus, he had made appearances in fillers, movies, and GT after his final manga appearance. Makes sense, since out of the main DB villains (Pilaf, Black, Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Majin Boo), he is the one that had the most influence than everyone of them as a villain.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'll just ignore the guidebooks on that. Besides, this is based in the TV Special, not in DB-, so I'm fine.

Well, even though EoB is promoted to be the TV Special's sequel, it barely has any references to it. It even contradicts it, since the confrontation with Freeza is very different, and we see Bardock remembering some random Saiyans being killed by Freeza's men instead of his own men, which never happened in the TV Special. There is also no mention of Bardock having the ability to see the future. There is only Bardock attacking to Freeza, which is also something we see in the manga.

You'd still have to deal with the manga only guides and information where his birth year is given as AGE 737, like Landmark and Forever for example.

Bardock very clearly remembers Panbukin, Selypa and Totepo getting slaughtered in the manga version of Episode of Bardock, and he also reminisces about them after defeating Chilled as well.

Spoiler:

[Gyt Kaliba]

Huh. I'm just wondering how in the heck

Spoiler:

Freeza knew about Super Saiyan God. If it's supposed to be such a forgotten piece of history that not even Vegeta, the most prideful example we have of a Saiyan, knew what the hell it was...how did Freeza find out about it?

Other than that though, I don't really have too much of a problem with what I'm hearing this chapter contains. I've already said earlier in the thread that I don't really mind the idea of kind-hearted Saiyans so long as they were something of a rarity, because I don't see any reason to doubt the possibility. It makes zero sense that the entire race was evil when you think about it.

I admit I am having a bit of trouble accepting how different Bardock seems here though. I'm just so used to how he was in the special, especially the post-bloodied-bandana and vengeance-seeking Bardock, that it's a little different to see him portrayed so...differently here. Say what you will about Episode of Bardock, at least there he was more like he's always been, personality wise anyway.

As for whether this takes away from Goku's personality coming from the head trauma or not...nothing has been flat-out said that's what's being suggested here, so I choose to view them as mutually exclusive. Yes, Goku's parents weren't quite as despicable as other members of the race, okay. That still doesn't necessarily mean that young Kakarot wouldn't have been closer to how the rest of the race was due to external influences, than he would have been to either parent. So maybe once he crash landed on Earth, he was a particularly violent little kid still yet, up until the head trauma.

...Hmm. Come to think of it, this does kind of change the head trauma thing in one way though. What was the exact dialogue Roshi said in the manga about how it occurred? The popular image for years now has basically been Gohan walking by a ravine and baby Goku tumbling into it. But if Goku was still really feisty and also a little older than we previously thought, going off of this new material...could it have been an accident during fighting? Gohan would still have undoubtedly been stronger than Goku at that time, so maybe in an attempt to restrain the boy without hurting him too badly, he accidentally knocked him into the ravine where Goku hit his head?

Oh, and as far as the

Spoiler:

Raditz thinking Goku had been sent to destroy the Earth when he apparently wasn't thing, that too can be easily explained IMO. Raditz was shown as away on a mission with Vegeta here (and I am still wondering where Nappa was then - oh, and I do kind of like that it was Vegeta ignoring the order rather than being 'spared' that left him alive), so all he likely knew was that his younger brother somehow escaped the planet's explosion. Not sure how he would come across this information, but once he found out he naturally assumed he was sent to a planet to take care of the inhabitants as per their usual MO.

I admit I do kind of dislike how that, thematically, removes from the villain-to-hero aspect of Goku's origin, but it doesn't really affect how his personality could come to be. So for the most part, I'm fine.

[Marco Polo]

Oooh, how about this? Pilaf was once the prince of a monster kingdom that was destroyed in the aftermath of Piccolo Daimao's original reign of terror. You see, monsters were discriminated against and the world military was first formed to wipe out several monster kingdoms for fear that they might produce another Piccolo Daimao, not knowing where he really came from. Pilaf was the only survivor, claiming to be the Emperor, but with no kingdom to command, and thus his obsession with conquering the world.

I wouldn't mind that at all. It plays into the "pathetic but kinda sorta loveable" shtick that goes with Pilaf. It's different than your other examples.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You'd still have to deal with the manga only guides and information where his birth year is given as AGE 737, like Landmark and Forever for example.

I know, I'll just ignore them and go by retcon.

Bardock very clearly remembers Panbukin, Selypa and Totepo getting slaughtered in the manga version of Episode of Bardock

They don't really look like them. The woman has long tied hair, while Selypa has short hair. The man on the rock looks like he has Vegeta-like hair, or long hair and doesn't appear to be fat, while Pumbukin has short hair, and he is fat. The other guy looks like Totapo though.

Spoiler:

he also reminisces about them after defeating Chilled as well.

I'm aware, my point was that we see Bardock having flashbacks about things that never happened in the TV Special. His team could have been in a different mission than Bardock during DB-, and they have 1 month to get back to the planet.

[shinmaru]

Commercial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i95-zzT-s8

[Luso Saiyan]

They don't really look like them. The woman has long tied hair, while Selypa has short hair. The man on the rock looks like he has Vegeta-like hair, or long hair and doesn't appear to be fat, while Pumbukin has short hair, and he is fat. The other guy looks like Totapo though.

Despite those small inconsistent details, that shot is supposed to depict the scene from the special. It's his team, the ones he failed to save.

[soulnova]

Yay! My copy has been shipped.

Even then I just saw the pics and I liked it a lot. Sure, there are inconsistencies but overall it was a refreshing outlook from Toriyama.

Now, what I have been starting to wonder... If the Oracle Fish was right and someone powerful would appear some 39 years after... Wouldn't that person actually be *Pan*?

[B]

There's something about Ooishi's art that bugs me here... And it didn't really do that in the JSAT manga or EoB. I guess I need to break down and read Jaco so I can properly determine what Toriyama's doing right. (Loved his BoG color spread)

[auspx]

So, does this contradict EoB? How does it tie-in with BoG? How does Bardock knows about Planet Vegeta's destruction and secretly has Goku leave?

Here is a summary of DB-:

"Bardock is out conquering a planet when Freeza decides to eradicate the Saiyans and orders all of them back to their home world. Bardock returns to planet Vegeta, suspicious of Freeza's actions. Vegeta is out conquering a planet with Raditz and decides to ignore the order.Bardock reunites with Gine now that he is home and begins to wonder about his son. Worried that their planet might be met with a terrible fate, Bardock steals an Attack Ball and launches Kakarotto out into space. 1 month later, Freeza arrives to destroy the planet."

As already mentioned by other users, it ties into Battle of Gods with the Super Saiyan God name drop.

Goku is mentioned to be 3 years old and that it will soon be time for him to exit the pod-thing. This causes a number of "problems" of varying levels of importance, depending on what you care about.

Just counting the manga, Goku being 3, and then 10 years passing after he lands in Jaco, makes him 13, but he is said to be 12 during the Pilaf Arc though (after he learns to count under Roshi). This isn't a big issue, as Goku may not even know how old he was and Gohan just assumed he was two when he found him, or perhaps the 10 years that pass are the same as the "7" years that pass between the Cell and Buu Arcs...meaning not really 7, and not really enough time for Goten to be his stated age either. lol

Counting the guidebooks, more pretty major inconsistencies arise when you try and work with all the numbers: Goku's official birth year and stated age (737+3), Bluma's stated age and birth year (733+5), DB taking place 10 years after Jaco, and even planet Vegeta being destroyed during Beerus' 39 year nap. No matter how you slice it, things just won't add up correctly.

Episode of Bardock is likely contradicted in that Bardock doesn't go through the events of the TV Special. Granted that may not be required, as Episode of Bardock really only needs 3 things to fit with references made in it: Bardock's outfit, challenging Freeza above planet Vegeta, and losing his squad at the hands of Freeza's men. Of those three, two are completely possible. Bardock has a different outfit when we see him, but that was a month before the planet is attacked. Since Toriyama doesn't depict the showdown in DB-, he could easily fly up there and challenge Freeza too. But, DB- seems to imply that Toma, Selypa, Panbukin and Totepo don't exist. It's only a month before they are destroyed and Bardock is called back from his mission with a completely different partner by his side...

I see a huge plot hole here. How does Raditz know that his little brother was sent to Earth? How can he possibly know that? And where is Nappa during all this? If he wasn't with Vegeta and Raditz, how did he survive? I hate to say this but Toybel's DragonBall Zero makes a lot more sense than DB-.

RE: Goku's age. I don't have a problem with him being a 3 year old toddler when he arrived on Earth. Let's face it, he didn't look like a 12 or 13 year old boy in the beginning of DragonBall. He looked like an overweight 5 year old. At the 22nd Martial Arts Tournament he did look like a short, 15 or 16 year old teenager, still he was a little too overweight. At the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament Goku does look like an 18 to 19 year old young man. So he would be 23 or 24 by the time Raditz arrived, 24 or 25 by the time he fought Freeza. It's not a big deal.

[xmysticgohanx]

So how old is he supposed to be in DB now? Is Bulma the same?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Despite those small inconsistent details, that shot is supposed to depict the scene from the special. It's his team, the ones he failed to save.

Checked the TV Special, and you are right, it is them.

But still, EoB doesn't 100% follow the TV Special. All that happened in the TV Special that is relevant to EoB was a) Bardock's comrades were killed, and b) Bardock rebelled & fought alone against Freeza. EoB doesn't show Bardock having the ability to see the future, so having the EoB manga as a sequel to DB- works. It could have gone like this:

• Bardock's team is on a different mission during DB-, and they disobey Freeza's orders to return.
  One month passes without them returning, so Freeza sends his men to kill them.
  Bardock goes to find them, and confirms his suspicions that Freeza is plotting to destroy the Saiyans.
  No one believes him, so he fights alone.
  He is sent to the past.
  Rest of EoB.

[garnetjester]

Well, I have a very unpopular opinion: I loved DB minus. I don't understand how Bardock having some kind of care for his wife (?) and children negates any of his capabilities as a warrior, or in fact, negates the fact that he's still a cold blooded murderer working under Freeza. It's not like he's now a baker and hates fighting. And I didn't think it was even as heart wrenching as it could have been, considering how Kakarotto spend his first 3 years in that capsule thing (from my understanding, I could be very wrong here though) so he didn't even really have any kind of relationship with his parents regardless of his memory loss.

Raditz thinking Kakarotto was sent away to conquer the Earth is easily explained because he never saw his parents again, so he probably just assumed that if his brother had survived it had to be because he was sent out on a mission. Since the Galaxy Patrol found out about Kakarotto's space pod, I imagine Freeza must've done so as well, and probably told the handful of saiyans. He probably didn't care about some low level kid being sent to some far off planet.

I don't know, I really enjoyed this story, and I didn't think it was mushy at all. I liked Bardock's portrayal as a smart guy who suspected Freeza all along, and I don't think his "relationship" with Gine makes him a wuss or something. They weren't even that affectionate towards each other. I don't think this ruins the whole saiyan mythology of them being cold blooded killers, it's genetically very improbable that a whole race is evil, some of them must have different dispositions, just like with anything else.

[The Monkey King]

I must say I preferred the story told in the Bardock Special.
I wish Toriyama just rewatched that then built up on it.
Although it was nice to see Bardock again and the story was kinda sad still,.
But good lord Toriyama's new art style (imo) is awful in comparison to how he used to draw in his prime.
His new art style being used for Jaco is alright because it suited it, but it being used for Dragon Ball characters...no...just no.

[soulnova]

The style felt weird, but it didn't bothered me much. We had already a good look at Jacko so... the style wasn't surprising for me.

[Luso Saiyan]

But still, EoB doesn't 100% follow the TV Special.

If EoB follows anything, it's the TV special. Bardock not having visions of the future during the events of the Episode doesn't contradict anything. He already had the visions of the future of his people during the TV special, which was all that the alien said he would have.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If EoB follows anything, it's the TV special. Bardock not having visions of the future during the events of the Episode doesn't contradict anything. He already had the visions of the future of his people during the TV special, which was all that the alien said he would have.

Not saying that it doesn't follow the TV Special, what I'm saying is that it doesn't follow exclusively the TV Special. If we ignore the TV Special, EoB follows the manga flashback, which shows Bardock rebelling against Freeza as it happened in the TV Special & EoB. So, it can go TV Special --> EoB, but it can also go DB- --> DB manga flashback --> EoB. We won't know much about Bardock's team if we take the manga route, but we don't need to know anything more than that they were comrades of Bardock that he failed to protect & got killed by Freeza's men, which is what EoB shows (and besides, the TV Special doesn't reveal anything more than that, other than going more into detail to their relationship with Bardock).

[ZombieVito]

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH"]

So, I'll stick with the EoB as manga canon for me, because it is a manga from Ooishi, and because it was covered in Chozenshuu #1. So, until it gets contradicted, it's canon for me. DB- will also be in my manga canon, because it's written by Toriyama, while the TV Special is on the same level as fillers, aka part of my anime canon.

But EoB does reference the movie and that for me is enough to kick it out of the canon.

[ZombieVito]

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH"]

So, I'll stick with the EoB as manga canon for me, because it is a manga from Ooishi, and because it was covered in Chozenshuu #1. So, until it gets contradicted, it's canon for me. DB- will also be in my manga canon, because it's written by Toriyama, while the TV Special is on the same level as fillers, aka part of my anime canon.

But EoB does reference the movie and that for me is enough to kick it out of the canon.

[Luso Saiyan]

Not saying that it doesn't follow the TV Special, what I'm saying is that it doesn't follow exclusively the TV Special.

No argument there.