What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[Gog]

Cell never says he wants to destroy the universe, he isn't even serious about destroying the Earth until he comes back from his suicidal explosion. Before that, he IS evil Goku. He intentionally lets Trunks go so he can come back stronger and pose a threat to him, he lets Goku eat a senzu so he can power up and they can keep fighting some more and then he purposefully tortures Gohan and everyone he cares about to get a strong opponent to fight.

Except he was, it was stated by android 16, it was stated by Cell multiple times, time after time again if Son Goku fails, if the Z fighters fail, then they've doomed the world. He'll enjoy killing everyone on the face on the earth. Yes he does that, but what he was planning to do after the Cell games spits on the idea that Cell is a evil Goku, in any shape or form.

This is a far cry from say Freeza or Vegeta who flipped shit the second anyone even momentarily put up an actual fight against them, Cell only does so when he's completely outclassed but before that, he WANTS his enemies to get stronger for his own amusement. Vegeta and Freeza wouldn't stand for this.

Except for the fact, that absolutely nobody was stronger than Cell besides Gohan at that moment. The reason why he flipped out as he did was because Gohan was stronger than him. That's it. YES he wants his enemies to be stronger for a good fight. But his actual motivations are so un evil Goku like. That I'm baffled that this comparison exists in the first place.

[ekrolo2]

Except he was, it was stated by android 16, it was stated by Cell multiple times, time after time again if Son Goku fails, if the Z fighters fail, then they've doomed the world. He'll enjoy killing everyone on the face on the earth. Yes he does that, but what he was planning to do after the Cell games spits on the idea that Cell is a evil Goku, in any shape or form.

It doesn't spit on it because Cell would simply destroy the world outright if he was just interested in destroying things. He wouldn't waste time by letting someone potentially challenging appear before him to pose a threat and yet he does: because he wants a good fight and he knows threats, murder and torture are a good way to rile guys like Goku, Piccolo and Trunks up for a battle. There's also a big difference between destroying the planet or solar system and the entire universe, unlike us who know the DB verse is worthless shit tier outside of Earth, Cell doesn't and he has no reason to think that destroying this dinky little rock will rob him of all future adversaries.

Except for the fact, that absolutely nobody was stronger than Cell besides Gohan at that moment. The reason why he flipped out as he did was because Gohan was stronger than him. That's it. YES he wants his enemies to be stronger for a good fight. But his actual motivations are so un evil Goku like. That I'm baffled that this comparison exists in the first place.

Fighting strong people IS his motivation upon reaching perfection though, its not blind destruction cause he'd just fucking blow up the Earth outright, he has no reason to not do this immediately if he wasn't interested in a good fight yet we repeatedly see that this IS the case. The very reason he makes the Cell Games at all is because Trunks informs him on how much stronger he, Vegeta and the others can get and he wants to see the fruits of their training. And, like an evil Goku would, he's not above using murder, torture and threats to get it done. That IS what an evil Goku who's closest to Goku's actual personality would do: a guy who wants a good fight and will do literally anything to get it.

Cell's problem, however, is that he's got Vegeta and Freeza in him so unlike Goku who can keep relatively calm under less than ideal conditions, he freaks out and flips shit when someone stronger than him shows up.

[Gog]

It doesn't spit on it because Cell would simply destroy the world outright if he was just interested in destroying things. He wouldn't waste time by letting someone potentially challenging appear before him to pose a threat and yet he does: because he wants a good fight and he knows threats, murder and torture are a good way to rile guys like Goku, Piccolo and Trunks up for a battle. There's also a big difference between destroying the planet or solar system and the entire universe, unlike us who know the DB verse is worthless shit tier outside of Earth, Cell doesn't and he has no reason to think that destroying this dinky little rock will rob him of all future adversaries.

It does spit on it, but a more light mist, Cell wanted to fight Strong opponents worthy of his power. However Cell also wanted to destroy planet earth, and potentially the entire universe, however by destroying earth, Cell is removing the only fighters in the entire universe that are even on the same level as he is. Yes he makes threats, but when he states that he's going to destroy the planet if they lose, he will destroy the planet if the lose. Except for the fact that Cell had Freeza and King Cold inside of him, so he has their memories, and knows that everyone outside of earth, isn't even Raditz tier.

Fighting strong people IS his motivation upon reaching perfection though, its not blind destruction cause he'd just fucking blow up the Earth outright, he has no reason to not do this immediately if he wasn't interested in a good fight yet we repeatedly see that this IS the case. The very reason he makes the Cell Games at all is because Trunks informs him on how much stronger he, Vegeta and the others can get and he wants to see the fruits of their training. And, like an evil Goku would, he's not above using murder, torture and threats to get it done. That IS what an evil Goku who's closest to Goku's actual personality would do: a guy who wants a good fight and will do literally anything to get it.

Yes fighting people, to test the power of his perfect form is one of his motivations, but its overshadowed by his largest motivation. Destroy everyone and everything. He wants to test his power, and have a good time, but at the end of the day. He will kill all of you regardless. He can't be reasoned with he will only destroy.

Cell's problem, however, is that he's got Vegeta and Freeza in him so unlike Goku who can keep relatively calm under less than ideal conditions, he freaks out and flips shit when someone stronger than him shows up.

Cell's problem isn't that he has Freeza or Vegeta in him, if that was the case, then he would try to rule the universe, and live life on the edge. The problem with Cell is that he's Cell.

[ABED]

Yes fighting people, to test the power of his perfect form is one of his motivations, but its overshadowed by his largest motivation. Destroy everyone and everything. He wants to test his power, and have a good time, but at the end of the day. He will kill all of you regardless. He can't be reasoned with he will only destroy.

Nihilism is a perfectly good motivation for a villain. I'm not sure where the idea that characters, but especially villains can't hold contradictory or seemingly senseless views. They aren't out to be constructive and take legitimate steps towards a legitimate goal.

Cell is removing the only fighters in the entire universe that are even on the same level as he is.

He's not, that's the point. If they all lose, they aren't at his level.

[ekrolo2]

It does spit on it, but a more light mist, Cell wanted to fight Strong opponents worthy of his power. However Cell also wanted to destroy planet earth, and potentially the entire universe, however by destroying earth, Cell is removing the only fighters in the entire universe that are even on the same level as he is. Yes he makes threats, but when he states that he's going to destroy the planet if they lose, he will destroy the planet if the lose. Except for the fact that Cell had Freeza and King Cold inside of him, so he has their memories, and knows that everyone outside of earth, isn't even Raditz tier.

As I already explained, Cell destroying the Earth isn't his primary factor, he wants to test himself first and he knows that by threatening to destroy the planet (and having many accompanying acts beforehand prove the validity of his threat) is a good way to make the Earth's fighters come at him with everything they've got. His problem, however, is the same as Vegeta's: he's only really interested in a good fight as long as he remains the dominant one, hence where Vegeta and to a lesser degree Freeza's contributions to his physiology effect his way of thinking.

Wouldn't him having Goku's DNA reveal to him they've got magic cheat codes stored away on Namek too?

Yes fighting people, to test the power of his perfect form is one of his motivations, but its overshadowed by his largest motivation. Destroy everyone and everything. He wants to test his power, and have a good time, but at the end of the day. He will kill all of you regardless. He can't be reasoned with he will only destroy.

Him destroying the Earth comes after his desire to fight, as I already said above, Cell wants a good fight and he'll do whatever it takes to get it, like an evil Goku would. An evil Goku also wouldn't just leave a planet alone once he get all the entertainment out of it he could, he'd destroy it because why not? It's the reverse of Goku's policy of letting worthless scrubs go.

Cell's problem isn't that he has Freeza or Vegeta in him, if that was the case, then he would try to rule the universe, and live life on the edge. The problem with Cell is that he's Cell.

He's like Vegeta and to a lesser degree Freeza in that he only tolerates a strong opponent as long as he remains top dog overall. Of course, Vegeta and Freeza are prone to flipping shit over this kind of thing much faster, hence where Goku comes in as Cell is not only fine with Goku almost killing him twice, that just makes him want to fight more.

Nihilism is a perfectly good motivation for a villain. I'm not sure where the idea that characters, but especially villains can't hold contradictory or seemingly senseless views. They aren't out to be constructive and take legitimate steps towards a legitimate goal..

This is a realy obvious example but the Joker is a perfect example of all this, he always talks a big game about how he's just doing things for the sake of doing them but he's very clearly lying and manipulating people around him for a definitive end goal.

[Gog]

As I already explained, Cell destroying the Earth isn't his primary factor, he wants to test himself first and he knows that by threatening to destroy the planet (and having many accompanying acts beforehand prove the validity of his threat) is a good way to make the Earth's fighters come at him with everything they've got. His problem, however, is the same as Vegeta's: he's only really interested in a good fight as long as he remains the dominant one, hence where Vegeta and to a lesser degree Freeza's contributions to his physiology effect his way of thinking

Of course destroying the earth, and the rest of the universe isn't his first primary thought. He's going to first test out the powers of the perfect form, and have a good fight. But here's my main issue with calling Cell evil Goku. He's not, his action's just don't say evil Goku, he's going to destroy the world in the end. Everything pointed towards that fact, no one's denying that, there was no thought box from Cell going tee, hee they will defiantly get better from that threat. He isn't evil Goku he' like him.

Wouldn't him having Goku's DNA reveal to him they've got magic cheat codes stored away on Namek too?

Except for the fact those cheat codes are on new Namek, and besides half the time the cast forgets about those things as well.

Him destroying the Earth comes after his desire to fight, as I already said above, Cell wants a good fight and he'll do whatever it takes to get it, like an evil Goku would. An evil Goku also wouldn't just leave a planet alone once he get all the entertainment out of it he could, he'd destroy it because why not? It's the reverse of Goku's policy of letting worthless scrubs go.

Yes, he's like an evil Goku. But an evil Goku would keep earth around for the sole point that, that would be his only place where he would have worthy fighters. Cell doesn't want a good fight, well he does but he mostly wanted to test out the powers of his perfect form. Besides we actually have what an evil Goku would be like, beat by beat. He's called Beerus. He actually ticks off more boxes than Cell does.

He's like Vegeta and to a lesser degree Freeza in that he only tolerates a strong opponent as long as he remains top dog overall. Of course, Vegeta and Freeza are prone to flipping shit over this kind of thing much faster, hence where Goku comes in as Cell is not only fine with Goku almost killing him twice, that just makes him want to fight more.

Because Cell was in almost complete control that entire fight, he never flipped out because of it. Goku vaporizes him, regenerates.

[Doctor.]

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

[Gog]

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

Also it explains the lack of kaio ken. And why he never actually used it

[Doctor.]

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

Also it explains the lack of kaio ken. And why he never actually used it

Cell says he can use the Genkidama though, which is nonsensical. Small plot hole.

[ekrolo2]

Of course destroying the earth, and the rest of the universe isn't his first primary thought. He's going to first test out the powers of the perfect form, and have a good fight. But here's my main issue with calling Cell evil Goku. He's not, his action's just don't say evil Goku, he's going to destroy the world in the end. Everything pointed towards that fact, no one's denying that, there was no thought box from Cell going tee, hee they will defiantly get better from that threat. He isn't evil Goku he' like him.

An evil Goku keeping with the personality of the original is a man who'd torture, murder and threaten to make strong opponents come so he can fight then discard them when they're not useful to him anymore. We also don't need to have a thought box saying this: Cell flat out uses the "I'm gonna blow the world up card!" on Goku and then on Gohan to goad them into fighting him more/harder,

Yes, he's like an evil Goku. But an evil Goku would keep earth around for the sole point that, that would be his only place where he would have worthy fighters. Cell doesn't want a good fight, well he does but he mostly wanted to test out the powers of his perfect form. Besides we actually have what an evil Goku would be like, beat by beat. He's called Beerus. He actually ticks off more boxes than Cell does.

Beerus is what Goku and even Cell would become after millennia of having fuck all to amuse them which is an interesting end goal/eventuality but it's not really close to Goku's standard personality, more of some twisted conclusion for him. Goku also has a tendency to let scrubs beneath his level go free, like the Ginyu Force, an evil Goku wouldn't do this, he'd prove his superiority over them and once he's drained them of all they can give him entertainment wise, he'd kill them.

Cell even has a good in-universe reason for this: everyone's tapped out. Vegeta and Trunks go into this special room again (multiple times for all he knows) and they're still scrubs to him, same thing with Piccolo and even the legendary Goku can't match his full power. The series itself even later on confirms this when Goku & Vegeta BARELY get stronger than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak at SS2. For all Cell knows, this IS the highest these guys can get in a relatively brief amount of time.

Because Cell was in almost complete control that entire fight, he never flipped out because of it. Goku vaporizes him, regenerates.

He definitely flips out when Goku blows him in half, Cell's even shocked by Goku charging the Kamehameha and he admits Goku had him on the ropes with his blast barrage. And yet, Cell doesn't flip Vegeta/Freeza level shit despite the fact both of these things could've killed him.

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

Also it explains the lack of kaio ken. And why he never actually used it

Cell says he can use the Genkidama though, which is nonsensical. Small plot hole.

He doesn't have KK because he'd win by default with it.

[Gog]

An evil Goku keeping with the personality of the original is a man who'd torture, murder and threaten to make strong opponents come so he can fight then discard them when they're not useful to him anymore. We also don't need to have a thought box saying this: Cell flat out uses the "I'm gonna blow the world up card!" on Goku and then on Gohan to goad them into fighting him more/harder,

Evil Goku would totally do all of that, but if it was to potentially ruin his fun, or his potential of fighting a good opponent, then the chances of that would lower significantly . Your right because Cell was absolutely 100% going to blow the world up if they failed. You can't argue against that, he confirms it. In fact he was going to blow up the world regardless if he was still having a fun time with Goku. He was using the promise of him blowing up the world, to make them fight harder. But at the end of the day, he would blow it up.

Beerus is what Goku and even Cell would become after millennia of having fuck all to amuse them which is an interesting end goal/eventuality but it's not really close to Goku's standard personality, more of some twisted conclusion for him. Goku also has a tendency to let scrubs beneath his level go free, like the Ginyu Force, an evil Goku wouldn't do this, he'd prove his superiority over them and once he's drained them of all they can give him entertainment wise, he'd kill them.

Actually, that would be really interesting, and fuck I want that to be the end of Goku's character. except for the fact that the Ginyu force didn't give Goku a fun time, he just one shot those fools. If Evil Goku ever found someone nearly as strong as him, or slightly stronger, he would keep them, as they would be more entertaining. Something Cell didn't do, he's like evil Goku. He's not though

Cell even has a good in-universe reason for this: everyone's tapped out. Vegeta and Trunks go into this special room again (multiple times for all he knows) and they're still scrubs to him, same thing with Piccolo and even the legendary Goku can't match his full power. The series itself even later on confirms this when Goku & Vegeta BARELY get stronger than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak at SS2. For all Cell knows, this IS the highest these guys can get in a relatively brief amount of time.

Except he really doesn't if you realize that. At that moment in time the people on earth were leagues, and leagues above anybody in the universe. You could retcon his actions by stating that their was still Lord Beerus, and he was stronger than Freeza. But besides that the people on earth, are his best opportunity for fun.

He definitely flips out when Goku blows him in half, Cell's even shocked by Goku charging the Kamehameha and he admits Goku had him on the ropes with his blast barrage. And yet, Cell doesn't flip Vegeta/Freeza level shit despite the fact both of these things could've killed him.

Are we on the same page here? All I remember him doing was getting shocked, then just shrugging it off like it was less than literally nothing.

He doesn't have KK because he'd win by default with it.

The true reason why he lacks Kaio ken is because it was the Cell Games

[funrush]

Super's random buffs and nerfs. Raditz never had to worry about bullets, and now Krillin does. Wasn't he like dozens of times stronger than Raditz? And Roshi is somehow now on the same tier as the other human fighters? Trunks's blue aura thing? And this is fanboy nitpicking but maybe Vegito not being as comically overpowered as he was in the manga. Black Goku literally ripping a hole in space with that scythe was the first time I actually felt like these characters have been getting stronger.

Super's lack of definite characterization. In Z, Vegeta's the stupid prideful one and Goku's the slightly more rational one, yet can act "stupid" if it benefits others. See: Vegeta letting Cell become perfect, and Goku getting mad at Vegeta for crushing the Potara. Now, it's sort of swapped. They have that one line in the U6 tourney where Vegeta says something like "Goku has this bad habit of not getting serious quickly." And Goku savors his fight with Black instead of incapacitating him.

The Yamamoto scandal. Yamamoto's soundtrack might be my favorite DB soundtrack ever, and it sucks that there's no way to get his version of Kai without spending a huge amount of money or pirating. And even then, that's not the whole thing. There will never be an official dub release with his mindblowing Gohan SS2 transformation song. Stings more that Kikuchi's OST in Kai lacks a punch due to the cobbled together placement. EDIT: I guess I'll have to settle for this.

[Noah]

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

Didn't he also collected Saiyan arc Goku cells?

[Doctor.]

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

Didn't he also collected Saiyan arc Goku cells?

No, Cell says his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai.

You're thinking of Gero. Gero watched Goku's progress until the Saiyan arc.

[Gog]

Another particularly lame thing to come out of main dragon ball, is Whis's fix all staff.

[SaiyanZ]

Cell wouldn't know about Namek because his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai. It's why he doesn't have IT, too.

Didn't he also collected Saiyan arc Goku cells?

No, Cell says his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai.

Wait, this was specifically said?

[Doctor.]

Didn't he also collected Saiyan arc Goku cells?

No, Cell says his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai.

Wait, this was specifically said?

I'm on mobile, so I can't post the pages now, but I'm sure Cell said he collected Goku and Piccolo's cells from the 23rd Budokai, to which Piccolo replies "That's why you're Kamehameha was weak, Goku wasn't very strong back then."

[rereboy]

No, Cell says his Goku cells are from the 23rd Budokai.

Wait, this was specifically said?

I'm on mobile, so I can't post the pages now, but I'm sure Cell said he collected Goku and Piccolo's cells from the 23rd Budokai, to which Piccolo replies "That's why you're Kamehameha was weak, Goku wasn't very strong back then."

Cell: "Cells from Son Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta were harvested when the latter came to Earth".

DBZ Vizbig, Volume 5, page 388.

[Doctor.]

Wait, this was specifically said?

I'm on mobile, so I can't post the pages now, but I'm sure Cell said he collected Goku and Piccolo's cells from the 23rd Budokai, to which Piccolo replies "That's why you're Kamehameha was weak, Goku wasn't very strong back then."

Cell: "Cells from Son Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta were harvested when the latter came to Earth".

DBZ Vizbig, Volume 5, page 388.

Oh, that's weird, I could be sure it was the 23rd Budokai. Guess I was wrong.

[Grimlock]

In the manga, Piccolo says that it's Goku's cells from three years ago and there's a draw of Saiyan saga's Goku, but that's impossible since they're in AGE 767, The battle with Vegeta occured in AGE 762. That would mean Cell has Goku's cells from AGE 764, when Goku arrived and showed his Super Saiyan to Trunks instead.