Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Khin]

- But that's it. We don't know when exactly Vegeta surpassed his father but we do know thanks to the guide that King Vegeta was stronger until he died.
- Freeza powered up by a good deal by Piccolo's comments but Vegeta was still sure to beat him. There's has to be a gap between his 3rd and final forms.
- Now that you bumped Perfect Cell you should bump Vegeta and Trunks in the CG.
- Goku still intimidated Kaioshin with SSJ though.
- Vegeta made it very clear that power was the deciding factor when choosing the participants. Goku didn't pick Gohan because he knows he doesn't like fighting.
- 6!? Isn't BoG 4 years after Buu?

- King Vegeta already died in Minus tho.
- Piccolo only said that it was a large Ki.It doesn't mean that his Ki is way way higher than before.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 304 (DBZ 110), P8.3
Context: after Freeza finishes his final transformation
Piccolo: “Wh-what an absurdly large ki….!”

- Why would i ?
- Does't mean Kaioshin is weaker.It just means that Goku won't hesitate killing him.A mere 11% gap disadvantage is enough for Goku to kill Kaioshin especially if Kaioshin won't attack back at him.
- Eh ? I don't buy this.Gohan is still above Piccolo even in base.Skills and experience > a little power gap.
- Just checked it,its around 5 years,Pan is 4 in EOZ and was just born in ROF.Meaning ROF happnened around 6 years after Boo.

[DanielSSJ]

- Does't mean Kaioshin is weaker.It just means that Goku won't hesitate killing him.A mere 11% gap disadvantage is enough for Goku to kill Kaioshin especially if Kaioshin won't attack back at him.

Judging from how Super Saiyan Gohan, who is weaker than Goku, could pull out the Z Sword when Kaioshin and the other gods of the past couldn't suggests that the Super Saiyans are above him.

[Khin]

- Does't mean Kaioshin is weaker.It just means that Goku won't hesitate killing him.A mere 11% gap disadvantage is enough for Goku to kill Kaioshin especially if Kaioshin won't attack back at him.

Judging from how Super Saiyan Gohan, who is weaker than Goku, could pull out the Z Sword when Kaioshin and the other gods of the past couldn't suggests that the Super Saiyans are above him.

I don't think lifting strength have anything to do with power.Just after pulling the Z Sword,Base Gohan was able to carry it,yet Kibito on the other hand who isn't that much weaker than him can't even move the damn thing.

[ZombieVito]

- Why would i ?
- Eh ? I don't buy this.Gohan is still above Piccolo even in base.Skills and experience > a little power gap.

Well Vegeta was very confident he would beat Cell. I think the gap should be significant.
Eh? I never said Gohan wasn't stronger than Piccolo. Goku never picked Gohan because he knows he doesn't like fighting but once he says he would like to participate then Goku drops Piccolo for him. Vegeta made it very clear that they were choosing by power. Skills and experience were never even mentioned.

[ahill1]

- Does't mean Kaioshin is weaker.It just means that Goku won't hesitate killing him.A mere 11% gap disadvantage is enough for Goku to kill Kaioshin especially if Kaioshin won't attack back at him.

Judging from how Super Saiyan Gohan, who is weaker than Goku, could pull out the Z Sword when Kaioshin and the other gods of the past couldn't suggests that the Super Saiyans are above him.

I don't think lifting strength have anything to do with power.Just after pulling the Z Sword,Base Gohan was able to carry it,yet Kibito on the other hand who isn't that much weaker than him can't even move the damn thing.

But Kibito is way weaker than base Gohan. Only the guidebook states otherwise and we know that's not true.

[Khin]

But Kibito is way weaker than base Gohan. Only the guidebook states otherwise and we know that's not true.

Guidebooks are still official,and that statement doesn't contradict anything in the manga.Gohan wasn't sure he can beat Kibito in base,though this line is pretty confusing.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”
Note: That last sentence is one of those that’s kinda hard to translate literally. “Covering up” (gomakasu) is in the sense of faking it or deceiving someone, not simply in the sense of wearing a disguise, and in context he's almost certainly talking about covering up his true power (since that's what he mentions disguising himself in order to prevent people from finding out about). So essentially, Gohan doesn’t think he can win while still covering up his actual power. Hence Viz’s ‘by accident’ being in quotation marks: they mean the sort of thing Shen did, hiding his power by making it look like he won by pure accident. So I can see what Viz was going for with their translation, but I think it is kinda confusing.

- Why would i ?
- Eh ? I don't buy this.Gohan is still above Piccolo even in base.Skills and experience > a little power gap.

Well Vegeta was very confident he would beat Cell. I think the gap should be significant.
Eh? I never said Gohan wasn't stronger than Piccolo. Goku never picked Gohan because he knows he doesn't like fighting but once he says he would like to participate then Goku drops Piccolo for him. Vegeta made it very clear that they were choosing by power. Skills and experience were never even mentioned.

- Aside from this line,i don't see any indication that Vegeta is far stronger than surpressed Perfect Cell.And it's not like Vegeta know that Cell was only surpressing his power at that time.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

- I still won't make up my mind for it.

[apex_pretador]

2,000,000 is the absolutely minimum for 3rd Form Freeza I'd say. My Freeza saga power levels:


Kuririn - 300,000

Vegeta (after resting, full power burst) - 500,000

Freeza (full power, infuriated) - 530,000
- (transformed) - 1,060,000
- (powered up further) - 1,200,000
- (full strength) - 1,400,000
- (transformed again) - 2,000,000
- (initial true form) - 3,100,000
- (embarassing Vegeta) - 4,400,000
- (50%) - 100,000,000

Son Gohan - 400,000
- (enranged) - 1,000,000
- (full power assault) - 1,100,000
- (healed) - 1,000,000
- (aggravated) - 1,700,000
- (Full-power Massive Masenko) - 1,920,000

Piccolo (assimilation, weighted) - 1,250,000
- (unweighted) - 1,500,000

Vegeta (massive auto-evolution) - 3,000,000

Son Goku (healed) - 4,300,000
- (Kaio-ken x 10) - 43,000,000
- (Kaio-ken x 20) - 86,000,000
- (Kamehameha) - 96,000,000
- (chi dropping after burst) - 1,500,000
- (Genki Dama) - 120,000,000

SSJ Son Goku - 215,000,000
- (Kamehameha) - 534,000,000

Freeza (after Genki Dama) - 77,000,000
- (70% chi burst) - 140,000,000
- (100%) - 200,000,000
- (Force Field) - 537,500,000
- (worn down) - 175,000,000
- (sliced in half) - 1,000
- (Goku's energy donated) - 33,000,000
- (desperation blast) - 66,000,000
- (reduced to residue) - 500

Great list, keep it up!

Not necessarily.

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 3,000,000
-- Kaioken x10: 30,000,000
-- Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 150,000,000

Freeza [3rd suppression]: 530,000
-- 2nd suppression: 800,000
-- Power up [vs Son Gohan]: 950,000
-- Full power: 1,200,000
-- 1st suppression: 1,800,000
-- True form: 3,600,000
-- 50% of full power: 60,000,000
-- 70% of full power: 84,000,000
-- Full power: 120,000,000

Vegeta: 250,000
-- Zenkai boost [vs True form Freeza]: 2,400,000

Son Gohan: 200,000
-- Enraged [vs 2nd suppression Freeza]: 700,000
-- Zenkai boost [vs 1st suppression Freeza]: 400,000
-- Enraged [vs 1st suppression Freeza]: 1,600,000

Piccolo: 120,000
-- After assimilating Nail: 1,000,000
-- Without weighted clothes: 1,200,000
-- With Son Gohan and Kuririn’s energy: 1,500,000

Kuririn: 75,000

I think freeza said "my power NOW is atleast over 1 million" before powering up vs gohan.

[apex_pretador]

OK, here comes my improved GT list:

Baby arc:

Spoiler:

Uub - 10,000,000,000
Adult goku - 10,000,000,000
________________________
Kid goku - 10,000,000,000

SS gohan - 8,000,000,000
Base gohan - 2,000,000,000
SS goten - 2,000,000,000

Piccolo - in billions

Vegeta - 6,000,000,000
SS vegeta - 30,000,000,000
Baby vegeta - 50,000,000,000

Kid goku - 10,000,000,000 , SS3 - 50,000,000,000

Baby vegeta :

• 50,000,000,000
  100,000,000,000
  130,000,000,000

Ozaru baby - 400,000,000,000
SS4 goku - 400,000,000,000 (well, he comes out to be equal to SS vegetto from buu arc)

Majuub - 100,000,000,000

Super 17 arc:

Spoiler:

Majuub - 100,000,000,000
SS vegeta - 160,000,000,000
Super 17 - 220,000,000,000 (pre)

SS goku - 250,000,000,000

Shadow dragon arc:

Spoiler:

Base goku (100 yrs later) = infinite ^ 100
Base kid goku (shenron absorbed) = 10x infinite
Base kid goku - infinite
SS4 gogeta - 32,000,000,000,000
Omega shenron - 12,000,000,000,000
SS4 vegeta - 1,600,000,000,000 (10x SS vegeta)
SS4 goku (Beyond limits) - 1,600,000,000,000
Syn shenron - 1,200,000,000,000
SS4 goku (initial) - 800,000,000,000
Nuova shenron - 800,000,000,000
Ice shenron - 700,000,000,000

[Desassina]

I hate treading old ground, but allow me to post mine, with the characters I believe are necessary. The rules I propose myself to are:
- Increments of 1.25 and 1.6 times the battle power, which multiplied by each other give 2. Alternatively, 1.6 can be broken down into 1.25 and 1.28.
- Grade II is 1.25 times SSJ, Grade III is 1.6. SSJ2 is twice the amount of SSJ. Full Power SSJ will have its own rules once I reach its moment.
- Transformations are not static multipliers, but they range between the ones we know from the Super Exciting Guides.

I will lump close powers together, and I won't tinker with those numbers if the differences are small. Use these numbers as a reference instead.

Freeza Battle

SSJ Goku - 150'000k
Freeza (100%) - 120'000k

Trunks' Arrival

SSJ Goku - 192'000k
SSJ Trunks - 187'500k
Mecha Freeza - 150'000k

Androids Show Up

SSJ Vegeta - 240'000k
SSJ Trunks - 240'000k
Piccolo - 192'000k
Android 18 (62.5%) - 240'000k

Cell Appears

Piccolo - 384'000k
Android 17 (100%) - 384'000k
Imperfect Cell (Full Power) - 480'000k
Semi-Perfect Cell - 600'000k
GII SSJ Vegeta - 750'000k

Up to Cell Games

Perfect Cell (50%) - 960'000k
GIII SSJ Trunks - 960'000k
FPSSJ Gohan (suppressed) - 600'000k
FPSSJ Goku (half way) - 800'000k
Piccolo (after RoSaT) - 768'000k
SSJ Vegeta (2nd time) - 960'000k

Cell Games Until the End

FPSSJ Goku - 1'200'000k
Perfect Cell (62.5%) - 1'200'000k
FPSSJ Gohan - 1'200'000k
SSJ Trunks - 960'000k
SSJ2 Gohan - 2'400'000k
Perfect Cell (100%) - 1'920'000k
Super Perfect Cell - 2'400'000k

Babidi/Buu Saga

SSJ Goku (62.5x) - 2'400'000k
Yakon - 512'000k
SSJ Gohan (80x) - 2'400'000k
Dabura - 2'400'000k
Kaioshin - 960'000k
Piccolo - 768'000k
SSJ2 Goku - 3'840'000k
Majin Vegeta - 3'840'000k

And it ends here, for now.

[ahill1]

But Kibito is way weaker than base Gohan. Only the guidebook states otherwise and we know that's not true.

Guidebooks are still official,and that statement doesn't contradict anything in the manga.Gohan wasn't sure he can beat Kibito in base,though this line is pretty confusing.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”
Note: That last sentence is one of those that’s kinda hard to translate literally. “Covering up” (gomakasu) is in the sense of faking it or deceiving someone, not simply in the sense of wearing a disguise, and in context he's almost certainly talking about covering up his true power (since that's what he mentions disguising himself in order to prevent people from finding out about). So essentially, Gohan doesn’t think he can win while still covering up his actual power. Hence Viz’s ‘by accident’ being in quotation marks: they mean the sort of thing Shen did, hiding his power by making it look like he won by pure accident. So I can see what Viz was going for with their translation, but I think it is kinda confusing.

- Why would i ?
- Eh ? I don't buy this.Gohan is still above Piccolo even in base.Skills and experience > a little power gap.

Well Vegeta was very confident he would beat Cell. I think the gap should be significant.
Eh? I never said Gohan wasn't stronger than Piccolo. Goku never picked Gohan because he knows he doesn't like fighting but once he says he would like to participate then Goku drops Piccolo for him. Vegeta made it very clear that they were choosing by power. Skills and experience were never even mentioned.

- Aside from this line,i don't see any indication that Vegeta is far stronger than surpressed Perfect Cell.And it's not like Vegeta know that Cell was only surpressing his power at that time.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

- I still won't make up my mind for it.

Are you serious? when Gohan cannot even sense Kibito's chi and everyone is unsure at his power? And yes, Kibito being on base Gohan's level contradicts the manga, since the former can't even lift the Zeta sword, yet the latter can move it around with some difficulty.

[Kaboom]

Only Kibito's battle power, meaning "ki level," was specifically said to be similar to Gohan's. But not necessarily equal, just strong enough to be a challenge for him. Gohan's training with the Z-sword was revealed to have helped his "arm strength," so I'd guess that's what lifting it in the first place was about too. So Kibito's power level is somewhat less than Gohan's, who being part Saiyan probably also has an extra edge on him in physical strength. Maybe even a big one since Kibito's an older dude from a race that's more about mystic powers than brute strength. Hence Gohan can (barely) lift the sword while Kibito can't.

Gohan — PL: 10, Strength: 12
Kibito — PL: 8, Strength: 6

Ta-daaah~ Everything explained, everything fits together, no haughty "dumb silly guidebooks are dumb and wrong" spiels necessary.

[dbgtFO]

It isn't so much as "the guidebooks are crappy and wrong!" more like what is the reason for that statement in the first place?
To me it just seems like they read, what Gohan thought to himself and deemed it good enough.
Looking at the statement critically, Gohan was only speculating, as ahill1 points out, so there's good reason for it to be ignored, when Kibito later on shows incapable of picking up the Z-sword unlike the father-son duo.

Also, while I agree that individuals can have varying levels in different departments of the body, I don't buy this should make Kibito incapable of picking up the sword at least. I can understand him dropping the sword, if his arms are weaker than Gohan's, but failing to pick up the sword should not be beyond him. If we look at it realistically it's basically a deadlift, where you use not just the arms, but pretty much every major muscle group, so Kibito has no excuse for failure.

[Desassina]

And finally, the rest of the Buu saga, where I increase their power by 1.25, 1.6 and 2. I'll present them in tiers this time, and use symbolic numbers that resemble multipliers.

Buuhan - 800
Buutenks - 625
Kid Buu - 400
Buff Buu - 320
Super Buu - 250
Evil Buu - 200
Fat Buu - 160
Good Buu - 125

SSJ Vegetto - 1000
SSJ3 Goku - 400
Ultimate Gohan - 320
SSJ3 Gotenks - 250
Majin Vegeta - 100
South Kai - 80
Dai Kai - 50
SSJ Gohan - 40

[DanielSSJ]

Only Kibito's battle power, meaning "ki level," was specifically said to be similar to Gohan's. But not necessarily equal, just strong enough to be a challenge for him. Gohan's training with the Z-sword was revealed to have helped his "arm strength," so I'd guess that's what lifting it in the first place was about too. So Kibito's power level is somewhat less than Gohan's, who being part Saiyan probably also has an extra edge on him in physical strength. Maybe even a big one since Kibito's an older dude from a race that's more about mystic powers than brute strength. Hence Gohan can (barely) lift the sword while Kibito can't.

Gohan — PL: 10, Strength: 12
Kibito — PL: 8, Strength: 6

Ta-daaah~ Everything explained, everything fits together, no haughty "dumb silly guidebooks are dumb and wrong" spiels necessary.

Works for me! I like the idea that equal power levels don't necessarily translate to equal stats.

[Doctor.]

Has anyone ever bothered to make a Kiri list?

[ekrolo2]

Has anyone ever bothered to make a Kiri list?

...... How has no one done this yet?!

[ahill1]

Has anyone ever bothered to make a Kiri list?

This would be fun. I'll try.

Do you think Goku was suppressed when Bobbidi readed him at 3,000 kiri?

[ekrolo2]

Has anyone ever bothered to make a Kiri list?

This would be fun. I'll try.

Do you think Goku was suppressed when Bobbidi readed him at 3,000 kiri?

If we're taking the V-jump 1 Kiri=50 000 PL then he's suppressed something fierce since his PL at that would only amount to a 150 million.

[ahill1]

Has anyone ever bothered to make a Kiri list?

This would be fun. I'll try.

Do you think Goku was suppressed when Bobbidi readed him at 3,000 kiri?

If we're taking the V-jump 1 Kiri=50 000 PL then he's suppressed something fierce since his PL at that would only amount to a 150 million.

So according to V-jump, Goku SSJ was at 150,000,000 right? I don't think this is accurate. They seem to think that Goku SSJ is always at his power in Namek, which is not true. Since now I believe Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabra, 3,000 to Goku could work. The only problem with that is that Goku base should be on par with Yakon [800 kiris]. This would make the Saiyans base extremly powerful, while they should not be too ahead of #18 (since Trunks and Goten base are in #18's level IMO and I don't think the adults are multi-folds stronger than the kids).

[ekrolo2]

This would be fun. I'll try.

Do you think Goku was suppressed when Bobbidi readed him at 3,000 kiri?

If we're taking the V-jump 1 Kiri=50 000 PL then he's suppressed something fierce since his PL at that would only amount to a 150 million.

So according to V-jump, Goku SSJ was at 150,000,000 right? I don't think this is accurate. They seem to think that Goku SSJ is always at his power in Namek, which is not true. Since now I believe Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabra, 3,000 to Goku could work. The only problem with that is that Goku base should be on par with Yakon [800 kiris]. This would make the Saiyans base extremly powerful, while they should not be too ahead of #18 (since Trunks and Goten base are in #18's level IMO and I don't think the adults are multi-folds stronger than the kids).

I don't think the kids are in the ballpark of 18 or even above Freeza. If they were, they wouldn't have used SSJ to beat her at the tournament.