Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Do we have any idea how strong base goku and vegeta are in the Db super manga?

Likely just the same as they are in the anime. Goku put up the same kinda fight he did against Frost as he did in the anime. Vegeta had to go Super Saiyan for Frost and Magetta and he fought evenly with Cabba again just like in the anime.

There's no particular difference.

[TheMikado]

as of current in manga:

whis - 15
beerus - 10
ssb goku/vegeta - 8
ssg goku - 6.5

No, as of manga, Beerus being 10 means SSG < 1

Maybe I wasn't clear in why this is a so weird.
How can this possibly work?

Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Goku < Piccolo < Weak Frost < Strong Frost < SSJ Goku

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

1. That is more like atleast 8 months.
2. Base goku > Piccolo. Frost was holding back against piccolo.

What in the manga implies SSG less than 10% Beerus??????
Also the the tournament was pretty much immediately after RoF.. Where did you get 8 months from? Where are you seeing this information?

[TheMikado]

Do we have any idea how strong base goku and vegeta are in the Db super manga?

Likely just the same as they are in the anime. Goku put up the same kinda fight he did against Frost as he did in the anime. Vegeta had to go Super Saiyan for Frost and Magetta and he fought evenly with Cabba again just like in the anime.

There's no particular difference.

There's nothing in the manga that showed their bases to be substantial greater than they were in BoGs or Buu arc for that matter. They only thing that shows their bases greater than SSJ3 is the anime. Remember we don't know what forms they fought Frieza in the the manga, it could have transpired entirely different in that continuity just based on the Champa arc Hit fight.

[TheMikado]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

Hi welcome to the forums. The main issue seems to be that there is a group that believes there should be a God Ki but not SSJ based form. Basically that God Ki and be flipped on and off or mixed independently of the SSJ form. To add further confusion the manga shows that form in the return of SSG where it utilizes God Ki but not SSJ. The manga basically showed the progression many expected with the Two base theory.

plain base < SSJ < SSG/God base < SSB

The problem is the manga seems to show

Plain base < SSJ < SSB and makes the base basically at God level this causes everyone who can take on Base Goku and higher God tier in the anime.

[Chiki]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

There is no consensus on Base Trunks > SS3 Gotenks in the anime. It's just an idiotic statement tbh, and you'd have to suspend all kinds of logic and reasoning to believe in it. Vegeta was at the same level Trunks was when Trunks left at the end of the Cell arc, and in 7 years of training, Vegeta only unlocked SS2. That's it. He became nowhere near above SS3 Gotenks level. So how can Trunks get that far by training alone? You just shouldn't respect dumb statements tbh, and you're right, if the two base theory ends up being false in the anime I do think it might be filler that should not be taken seriously. In the manga I'm 100% sure he won't be anywhere near SS3 Gotenks level.

There is a consensus that the two base theory is true in the manga, since Goku uncontroversially has two bases, non-SSG Base and SSG, It's just a matter of definition and is undeniable. There isn't a consensus on the two base theory in the anime.

[dbgtFO]

Also the the tournament was pretty much immediately after RoF.. Where did you get 8 months from? Where are you seeing this information?

It's because they used the Earth's Dragon Balls in episode 30 or 31(can't recall), forcing the Champa arc to logically take place at least 8 months after RoF(Freeza was wished back 4 months before returning to Earth).
Could just be a Toei insert and thus not part of the plot Toriyama gave them and it's never said, if they had been training non-stop since the end of RoF. Could have just started that day for all we know.

[Lionel]

Maybe I wasn't clear in why this is a so weird.
How can this possibly work?

Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Goku < Piccolo < Weak Frost < Strong Frost < SSJ Goku

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

I don't know. How does Piccolo go from being shocked at Vegeta's ability to perceive Freeza's attacks to confidently challenging him to a fight in 625 days worth of "mountain training" by himself, i.e. the training which doesn't yield much in the way of power gains according to most people?

If Frost was truly holding back power then it should have been easy for him to break Piccolo's appendage rope, but what does he do instead? He resorts to the poison needle which is evidently used only as a last resort given his actions during the fight with Goku.

[Bullza]

There's nothing in the manga that showed their bases to be substantial greater than they were in BoGs or Buu arc for that matter. They only thing that shows their bases greater than SSJ3 is the anime. Remember we don't know what forms they fought Frieza in the the manga, it could have transpired entirely different in that continuity just based on the Champa arc Hit fight.

Well it's just going to be the same.

Toriyama wrote Resurrection F where their Base strenght was considerably greatly than before in that movie. He has then wrote these plot outlines which act as a continuation of Resurrection F.

The anime and manga are then adapting these plot outlines. They are appropriately shown to still be substantially stronger than normal in base in the anime adaptation so why would it be completely different with the manga adaptation?

That Goku absorbed Gods power and then he went and trained with Whis is a vital plot point. Them being much stronger than before was mentioned in an interview and shown in the movies, the anime, the video games and even another manga by Toyotaro.

So why would the Super manga also by Toyotaro which is adapting material that follows up from the recent movie be completely different? That's just going against what Toriyama has written whilst also currently adapting what Toriyama is writing.

[buutenks]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

There is no consensus on Base Trunks > SS3 Gotenks in the anime. It's just an idiotic statement tbh, and you'd have to suspend all kinds of logic and reasoning to believe in it. Vegeta was at the same level Trunks was when Trunks left at the end of the Cell arc, and in 7 years of training, Vegeta only unlocked SS2. That's it. He became nowhere near above SS3 Gotenks level. So how can Trunks get that far by training alone? You just shouldn't respect dumb statements tbh, and you're right, if the two base theory ends up being false in the anime I do think it might be filler that should not be taken seriously. In the manga I'm 100% sure he won't be anywhere near SS3 Gotenks level.

There is a consensus that the two base theory is true in the manga, since Goku uncontroversially has two bases, non-SSG Base and SSG, It's just a matter of definition and is undeniable. There isn't a consensus on the two base theory in the anime.

Well, based on what Trunks said, when Black first arived, Black hit Trunks so hard he knocked him out of his ssj form or ssj2. Then in ep 48, Trunks is shown being able to hold his own for awhile.

So, most likely Trunks gained huge gains in power from constantly fighting Black in the course of 1 year.

Tho i wonder, how strong is base/ssj goku in the manga compared to previous sagas?

[Noah]

There is no consensus on Base Trunks > SS3 Gotenks in the anime. It's just an idiotic statement tbh, and you'd have to suspend all kinds of logic and reasoning to believe in it. Vegeta was at the same level Trunks was when Trunks left at the end of the Cell arc, and in 7 years of training, Vegeta only unlocked SS2. That's it. He became nowhere near above SS3 Gotenks level. So how can Trunks get that far by training alone? You just shouldn't respect dumb statements tbh, and you're right, if the two base theory ends up being false in the anime I do think it might be filler that should not be taken seriously. In the manga I'm 100% sure he won't be anywhere near SS3 Gotenks level.

There is a consensus that the two base theory is true in the manga, since Goku uncontroversially has two bases, non-SSG Base and SSG, It's just a matter of definition and is undeniable. There isn't a consensus on the two base theory in the anime.

Great analysis, Chiki.

[TheMikado]

There's nothing in the manga that showed their bases to be substantial greater than they were in BoGs or Buu arc for that matter. They only thing that shows their bases greater than SSJ3 is the anime. Remember we don't know what forms they fought Frieza in the the manga, it could have transpired entirely different in that continuity just based on the Champa arc Hit fight.

Well it's just going to be the same.

Toriyama wrote Resurrection F where their Base strenght was considerably greatly than before in that movie. He has then wrote these plot outlines which act as a continuation of Resurrection F.

The anime and manga are then adapting these plot outlines. They are appropriately shown to still be substantially stronger than normal in base in the anime adaptation so why would it be completely different with the manga adaptation?

That Goku absorbed Gods power and then he went and trained with Whis is a vital plot point. Them being much stronger than before was mentioned in an interview and shown in the movies, the anime, the video games and even another manga by Toyotaro.

So why would the Super manga also by Toyotaro which is adapting material that follows up from the recent movie be completely different? That's just going against what Toriyama has written whilst also currently adapting what Toriyama is writing.

Because it could easily be changed to have Final Frieza face SSG Goku instead. Toriyama could have decided that Saiyan beyond God was an actual form and made it so or Just plain SSG. In either case it wouldn't take much to make that small change and still line up with the rest of the manga exactly. As we've seen so far saying that because it's in the anime is NOT grounds to say it would also be in the manga. There's just literally no evidence in the manga that their bases are above SSJ3 levels. If I am proven wrong later that's fine but I would like evidence that it's that way in the manga.

[Bullza]

Great analysis, Chiki.

It's really not because Dragon Ball does not follow that kind of logic as we've seen many times.

Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million in one zenkai boost but Vegeta had three zenkai boosts where he was beaten much worse on all three occasions and he never got close to 3 million.

Goku spent 3 years training with Kami and Popo and even went in the ROSAT briefly and he didn't get anywhere close to as strong as what Tien, Krillin, Yamcha and even Yajirobe and probably Chiaotzu got after training with them for less than a year.

Tagoma went from being as strong as Zarbon to as strong as Perfect Cell possibly at least just from being knocked around for 4 months.

Cabba probably wasn't even half of Vegeta's age and he'd never even heard of Super Saiyan yet he could match him in their base forms.

So the argument that Trunks can't be this strong because of "logic" isn't an argument at all.

[Bullza]

Because it could easily be changed to have Final Frieza face SSG Goku instead. Toriyama could have decided that Saiyan beyond God was an actual form and made it so or Just plain SSG. In either case it wouldn't take much to make that small change and still line up with the rest of the manga exactly.

But that's just speculative and such a change would have been present in the anime if that were the case and it wasn't. If it was also going to be different to that extent then the manga wouldn't have skipped it over.

As far as the readers are concerned the events that were skipped over played out as they did in the movie. The writer would obviously know that so would have wrote the following arcs accordingly.

As we've seen so far saying that because it's in the anime is NOT grounds to say it would also be in the manga.

Well that's very different because Toriyama's plot outlines aren't specific on everything and that's why there are differences between the two and Toriyama has said the anime changes and expands on things.

But for them to drastically alter the material he'd already written in detail beforehand makes no sense especially without explanation.

There's just literally no evidence in the manga that their bases are above SSJ3 levels. If I am proven wrong later that's fine but I would like evidence that it's that way in the manga.

There's no evidence the opposite is true either.

This is just overcomplicating something very simple. Toriyama wrote Resurrection F which included Goku and Vegeta being much stronger than before. He's now writing a plot that follows directly on from Resurrection F and the manga is an adaptation of this very same plot.

The anime's doing the same thing and that's consistent with what had previously been established so why would the manga not be? They have pretty much the same fights with the same results and Toyotaro knows that Goku and Vegeta powered up greatly so why would he purposefully write it so that events played out differently to what readers think they did and go against what Toriyama's written and adapt what Toriyama's writing at the same time?

No they're just three versions of the same story. There's no radically different manga version where there was some unseen and unknown events which meant that pretty much half the cast was drastically weaker than in the other versions. They're just the same, that's it.

[Lionel]

Where does Hit's glance at Super Saiyan Goku fit into all this? It may not have been much, but to garner any kind of reaction from the likes of him must connote to something, especially since Frost transforming into his Assault form didn't warrant anything. The glance is anime exclusive, however. In the manga I don't think Hit paid any attention to Goku when he first transformed.

[Chiki]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

There is no consensus on Base Trunks > SS3 Gotenks in the anime. It's just an idiotic statement tbh, and you'd have to suspend all kinds of logic and reasoning to believe in it. Vegeta was at the same level Trunks was when Trunks left at the end of the Cell arc, and in 7 years of training, Vegeta only unlocked SS2. That's it. He became nowhere near above SS3 Gotenks level. So how can Trunks get that far by training alone? You just shouldn't respect dumb statements tbh, and you're right, if the two base theory ends up being false in the anime I do think it might be filler that should not be taken seriously. In the manga I'm 100% sure he won't be anywhere near SS3 Gotenks level.

There is a consensus that the two base theory is true in the manga, since Goku uncontroversially has two bases, non-SSG Base and SSG, It's just a matter of definition and is undeniable. There isn't a consensus on the two base theory in the anime.

Well, based on what Trunks said, when Black first arived, Black hit Trunks so hard he knocked him out of his ssj form or ssj2. Then in ep 48, Trunks is shown being able to hold his own for awhile.

So, most likely Trunks gained huge gains in power from constantly fighting Black in the course of 1 year.

Tho i wonder, how strong is base/ssj goku in the manga compared to previous sagas?

1. The meeting in ep 51 wasn't their first meeting. Their conversation makes that abundantly clear.
2. Trunks had a rage boost and that's why he held his own.

Base and SSJ Goku are probably quite a bit more powerful compared to BoG Base and SSJ, but nothing too much since Base Cabba was even with Vegeta.

Btw guys arguing with Bullza will never get you anywhere, just don't bother with it honestly. It's literally just not possible to argue with someone who says they won't use logic in debates which involve logical reasoning.

[Bullza]

Btw guys arguing with Bullza will never get you anywhere, just don't bother with it honestly. It's literally just not possible to argue with someone who says they won't use logic in debates which involve logical reasoning.

Was there a need to lie? I never said that.

You putting an emphasis on logic in the power levels is why you are so off track. This is a fictional anime series where it has been proven many times that the series does not follow logical consistency when it comes to power levels and characters get as strong as the plot calls for them to be.

[Kaboom]

Btw guys arguing with Bullza will never get you anywhere, just don't bother with it honestly. It's literally just not possible to argue with someone who says they won't use logic in debates which involve logical reasoning.

There's no need for comments like this.

[Draconic]

Haven't posted here in a while so I will try to explain my views on the scalings, in dawn of the new arc, with, of course, reference to previous ones.

First of all, going by Vegeta's line that him and Goku are close to their limits, I assume whatever power up they got from training post RoF was minimal and not enough to make a difference. So, Super Saiyan Blue stay pretty much consistent in my rankings troughout all the arcs.

Now, regarding base forms, I do not believe the two base theory. I believe that after Goku fought Beerus and absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, he gained a massive boost over his Buu arc/beginning of BoG arc self. As we've seen in the anime, however, the power of Super Saiyan God was transfered to his Super Saiyan form (not fully, but enough to keep him going on against Beerus). This means that his base form would be 50x weaker than that.

Next, we know from Copy-Vegeta's fight against SSJ3 Gotenks that the base forms are above him. I would place them somewhere around Buuhan (therefore NOT god-tier).

Now let's move on to the U6 fighters. This means that Frost's First and Assault form must be below that, probably around Super Buu and Buutenks (for consistency with the last ranking). The only form above base Saiyans would be his Final one, however both Goku and Vegeta owned him pretty bad so he is not god-tier either. This leaves us with the Piccolo mess that is pretty much where the scalings became confusing for some.

To analyze Piccolo we have to take a look at the RoF arc, specifically Gohan. Gohan seems to be above Piccolo even in base form, judging by their prestations against Tagoma. This means, though weakened, Gohan has still kept his Ultimate powers, but can't access them without the drawbacks of Super Saiyan anymore. This puts Super Saiyan Gohan at around his Ultimate level (in SSJ he knocks Tagoma down with a single punch, similar to Vegeta who we established is aroud Buuhan's power).
After Freeza is defeated, Gohan decides to train with Piccolo and get back in shape again. After eight months, Piccolo manages not only to catch up but also dominate Gohan, who, based on his appearence (in both the Champa arc episode he appears in and the Black arc) managed to reaccess his Ultimate powers, at least at BoG level. This means Piccolo is above Ultimate Gohan. However, I see no real reason to put him above Goku and Vegeta's base forms as his good performance against an weakened Frost was due to skill, not power. Judging also by his comment to Frost if he would use the Assault Form, I think Piccolo gravitates somewhere between Buutenks and Buuhan.

Magetta follows up and is the first opponent that manages to challenge a Super Saiyan. However, the anime provides some more constrictions to Vegeta, which means the guy might not be at Super Saiyan God level, but is still powerful enough to stand up to it. Not quite god-tier, but we're getting there.

Cabba is nowhere near Vegeta in base form, only managing to put up a good fight due to surprising his opponent with his skills, after which Vegeta turns SSJ. So I don't have Cabba at Buuhan level, but down a notch to around where Piccolo stands too. Also, his SSJ is also not close to god-tier, as he causes Vegeta much less trouble than Magetta, to the point where he tanks a punch to the face with 0 damage.

Coming now to Hit, he is god-tier without a doubt as he seems to be above even a Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Strongest fighter in the tournament for sure.

Moving on to the Black arc, the main problem here is Future Trunks. I personally see no reason for him to be above Buu arc SSJ2, as he did no special training. I guess fighting Black would make him stronger than Goku and Vegeta during their fight, but saying he isabove Gotenks is in my opinion absurd. He also shows nothing special. Black is always toying with him during their fights and Super Saiyan 2 Goku was not taking him seriously, but simply testing him, going SSJ3 just to show him he has a long way to go still.

Black however, seems to be at Super Saiyan God level in just his base form. Goku is a Super Saiyan 2 during their battle, but most of the battle is completley dominated by him which puts Black a little below him. The only thing this seems to contradict is Trunks' statement that Black should be more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, but again, Goku was not seriously fighting Trunks during that sparring match.

With that, it seems only Zamasu is left, which I put below Black, but still at Super Saiyan God level. He poses no problem to SSJ2 Goku during their fight and goes down with Goku not even breaking a sweat.

To conclude:

Botamo < Piccolo RoF < Base Gohan RoF < Majin Buu < Ginyu-Tagoma < SSJ2 Future Trunks < SSJ3 Gotenks < 1st Form Frost < Assault Form Frost < SSJ Gohan RoF/Ultimate Gohan/Gohan BoG/Gohan U6 < Piccolo U6 <= Base Cabba < Final Form Freeza < Base Goku/Vegeta < Final Form Frost < SSJ Cabba < Magetta < SSJ Goku/Vegeta <= Zamasu < SSG Goku < Black Goku <= SSJ2 Goku < SSJ3 Goku < SSB Goku/Vegeta <= Golden Freeza < SSBKKx10 Goku <= Hit < Champa < Beerus < Whis = Vados

[Lionel]

Skill overlaps performance in battle only so much. You need to have the speed, strength, and acuity to react and adjust which are all power based attributes. That's why we're not seeing Roshi fight Black despite his vast array of techniques and centuries worth of experience. Piccolo's performance against Frost spoke just as much about his power as it did his intelligence and skill. Again, how else do you explain Frost resorting to the poisoned needle if he could have broken Piccolo's grip using raw strength instead?

[apex_pretador]

as of current in manga:

whis - 15
beerus - 10
ssb goku/vegeta - 8
ssg goku - 6.5

No, as of manga, Beerus being 10 means SSG < 1

Maybe I wasn't clear in why this is a so weird.
How can this possibly work?

Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Goku < Piccolo < Weak Frost < Strong Frost < SSJ Goku

Considering how strong Goku is at greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels how could Piccolo possibly leap frog that in a few days no RoSaT??

1. That is more like atleast 8 months.
2. Base goku > Piccolo. Frost was holding back against piccolo.

What in the manga implies SSG less than 10% Beerus??????
Also the the tournament was pretty much immediately after RoF.. Where did you get 8 months from? Where are you seeing this information?

2. 8 months from the anime, Shenron is used despite the fact that 4 months before RoF, all 3 wishes were used up.

1. Beerus 10% vs SSG?

- Vegeta as SSB was less than 10% of his power against hit. Beerus never commented about it being lower than goku who fought him.
- Goku as SSG (more powerful than BoG SSG) , was stated to be more powerful than SSB Vegeta in the tournament, and beerus was SHOCKED. So, current SSG being above 1/10th of SSB is a "shock". Which means current SSB is atleast 10x SSG from BoG.
- Beerus being shocked also means that he didn't realize that SSG Goku > SSB Vegeta(10%), which means they should be close enough.