Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[ekrolo2]

I don't know how Toriyama's comment makes sense about a species that improves based on how much adversity they face. Surely a less hostile world where they're not likely to face as many challenges would stunt them instead of helping?

[JazzMazz]

I don't know how Toriyama's comment makes sense about a species that improves based on how much adversity they face. Surely a less hostile world where they're not likely to face as many challenges would stunt them instead of helping?

EDIT: I see what you mean.

At the same time, I think them also developing a more even and gentle spirit also helps(somehow).

[ekrolo2]

I don't know how Toriyama's comment makes sense about a species that improves based on how much adversity they face. Surely a less hostile world where they're not likely to face as many challenges would stunt them instead of helping?

EDIT: I see what you mean.

At the same time, I think them also developing a more even and gentle spirit also helps(somehow).

Yes because somehow, Saiyan genetics create a special Super Saiyan Cell based on how nice and/or angry you are now. People say Midi-chlorians are terrible but S-Cells almost by themsleves are proof DB shouldn't have come back.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I don't know how Toriyama's comment makes sense about a species that improves based on how much adversity they face. Surely a less hostile world where they're not likely to face as many challenges would stunt them instead of helping?

EDIT: I see what you mean.

At the same time, I think them also developing a more even and gentle spirit also helps(somehow).

Yes because somehow, Saiyan genetics create a special Super Saiyan Cell based on how nice and/or angry you are now. People say Midi-chlorians are terrible but S-Cells almost by themsleves are proof DB shouldn't have come back.

S-Cells are pretty inoffensive. It’s just Toriyama’s way of explaining why Saiyans like Goten and Trunks have an easier time turning Super Saiyan compared to others like Goku and Vegeta. It’s a lot like how Clark Kent got stronger through living on a planet like Earth compared to everyone else on Krypton. Not to mention, the whole S-Cells thing has only been mentioned by a comment from Toriyama rather than from the material itself. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get brought up in this movie.

People say a lot of things about the Star Wars prequels, to the point of goddamn exhaustion. They’re mostly okay movies. Episode III is great, though. Idgaf what anyone says. That movie is heaps of fun.

[ekrolo2]

EDIT: I see what you mean.

At the same time, I think them also developing a more even and gentle spirit also helps(somehow).

Yes because somehow, Saiyan genetics create a special Super Saiyan Cell based on how nice and/or angry you are now. People say Midi-chlorians are terrible but S-Cells almost by themsleves are proof DB shouldn't have come back.

S-Cells are pretty inoffensive. It’s just Toriyama’s way of explaining why Saiyans like Goten and Trunks have an easier time turning Super Saiyan compared to others like Goku and Vegeta. It’s a lot like how Clark Kent got stronger through living on a planet like Earth compared to everyone else on Krypton. Not to mention, the whole S-Cells thing has only been mentioned by a comment from Toriyama rather than from the material itself. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get brought up in this movie.

People say a lot of things about the Star Wars prequels, to the point of goddamn exhaustion. They’re mostly okay movies. Episode III is great, though. Idgaf what anyone says. That movie is heaps of fun.

S-Cells don't really explain anything though and could be argued to cause more problems. Gohan is a kind, gentle spirit who doesn't want to hurt or much less kill anyone and he has to work to get Super Saiyan the same way Goku and Vegeta did. Goku is also a kind, gentle soul who has no maliciousness in him and yet he has to work like crazy to get SS as well. Tarble is a soft Saiyan and is banished for it but he doesn't magically have an insane battle power because of it. U6 Saiyan's are all apparently nice people yet they've never attained Super Saiyan in the entire history of their species, unless you want to count the manga's lore drop of "The Legendary Saiyan!" as the exception.

It also feels like Toriyama's attempt at trying soften the rough edges of the Saiyan species which I feel is a detriment. Goku being the spawn of a race of genocidal monsters who killed and destroyed because they got off on it makes him becoming an unintentional (sometimes intentional) hero of Earth that much more poignant and makes his battle against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc considerably more effective. All this softening them up just annoys me and takes away from the series.

The reason why Midi-chlorians work, for me anyway, is two fold: there's obviously a genetic thing about the Force even in the OT and they're indifferent. Luke even says in Return that the Force runs strong in his family and that's pretty obvious by the fact he and Leia inherit Vader's Force potential. The second one is more important: midi-chlorians don't give a shit who you are, they don't care if you're angry or nice, they are an aspect of yourself you can use with training for whatever reason or not the same way lots of people never exercise certain muscles in their entire lives.

The indifference of the midi-chlorians to your personality feels appropriate to the SW setting and doesn't boil down things down to how nice and cuddly you are like S-Cells do. Look no further than Anakin/Vader for proof. Anakin had a crap load of midi-chlorians but because he coasted along with his raw potential and never really applied himself, he never realized his true power. Then when he lost most of his biological body, and most of his midi-chlorians by extension, he used what he had to become much, much more powerful than Anakin Skywalker ever was as Vader.

[ricky84]

Yes because somehow, Saiyan genetics create a special Super Saiyan Cell based on how nice and/or angry you are now. People say Midi-chlorians are terrible but S-Cells almost by themsleves are proof DB shouldn't have come back.

S-Cells are pretty inoffensive. It’s just Toriyama’s way of explaining why Saiyans like Goten and Trunks have an easier time turning Super Saiyan compared to others like Goku and Vegeta. It’s a lot like how Clark Kent got stronger through living on a planet like Earth compared to everyone else on Krypton. Not to mention, the whole S-Cells thing has only been mentioned by a comment from Toriyama rather than from the material itself. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get brought up in this movie.

People say a lot of things about the Star Wars prequels, to the point of goddamn exhaustion. They’re mostly okay movies. Episode III is great, though. Idgaf what anyone says. That movie is heaps of fun.

S-Cells don't really explain anything though and could be argued to cause more problems. Gohan is a kind, gentle spirit who doesn't want to hurt or much less kill anyone and he has to work to get Super Saiyan the same way Goku and Vegeta did. Goku is also a kind, gentle soul who has no maliciousness in him and yet he has to work like crazy to get SS as well. Tarble is a soft Saiyan and is banished for it but he doesn't magically have an insane battle power because of it. U6 Saiyan's are all apparently nice people yet they've never attained Super Saiyan in the entire history of their species, unless you want to count the manga's lore drop of "The Legendary Saiyan!" as the exception.

It also feels like Toriyama's attempt at trying soften the rough edges of the Saiyan species which I feel is a detriment. Goku being the spawn of a race of genocidal monsters who killed and destroyed because they got off on it makes him becoming an unintentional (sometimes intentional) hero of Earth that much more poignant and makes his battle against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc considerably more effective. All this softening them up just annoys me and takes away from the series.

The reason why Midi-chlorians work, for me anyway, is two fold: there's obviously a genetic thing about the Force even in the OT and they're indifferent. Luke even says in Return that the Force runs strong in his family and that's pretty obvious by the fact he and Leia inherit Vader's Force potential. The second one is more important: midi-chlorians don't give a shit who you are, they don't care if you're angry or nice, they are an aspect of yourself you can use with training for whatever reason or not the same way lots of people never exercise certain muscles in their entire lives.

The indifference of the midi-chlorians to your personality feels appropriate to the SW setting and doesn't boil down things down to how nice and cuddly you are like S-Cells do. Look no further than Anakin/Vader for proof. Anakin had a crap load of midi-chlorians but because he coasted along with his raw potential and never really applied himself, he never realized his true power. Then when he lost most of his biological body, and most of his midi-chlorians by extension, he used what he had to become much, much more powerful than Anakin Skywalker ever was as Vader.

None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions.

1. Vegeta himself said in the early Android arc that all that training he did in space got him nowhere. It was him getting pissed at himself for not being about catch up to Goku that allowed him to finally become SSJ.

2. Goku became SSJ by watching Krillin get killed and getting pissed at Freeza for it.

3. Future Trunks in the anime was shown to fail trying to transform by training, but finally does it after seeing Future Gohan dead.

4. Gohan in the anime does it when getting pissed at himself for not being able to do it by training with Goku.

5. Cabba does it after Vegeta threaten to kill his family.

6. Kale does it either by feeling intense jealousy (anime) or rage (manga).

The only ones to skip the emotional process were Present Trunks, Goten and Caulifla, and training wasn't much of a factor for them either. Even the non-canon examples like Bardock and M8 Broly were all done by emotional triggers, not any kind of hard work.

Western fans really need to let go of the hard-work fallacy when it comes to DB, because the franchise never really believed in it.

[ekrolo2]

None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions.

1. Vegeta himself said in the early Android arc that all that training he did in space got him nowhere. It was him getting pissed at himself for not being about catch up to Goku that allowed him to finally become SSJ.

2. Goku became SSJ by watching Krillin get killed and getting pissed at Freeza for it.

3. Future Trunks in the anime was shown to fail trying to transform by training, but finally does it after seeing Future Gohan dead.

4. Gohan in the anime does it when getting pissed at himself for not being able to do it by training with Goku.

5. Cabba does it after Vegeta threaten to kill his family.

6. Kale does it either by feeling intense jealousy (anime) or rage (manga).

The only ones to skip the emotional process were Present Trunks, Goten and Caulifla, and training wasn't much of a factor for them either. Even the non-canon examples like Bardock and M8 Broly were all done by emotional triggers, not any kind of hard work.

Western fans really need to let go of the hard-work fallacy when it comes to DB, because the franchise never really believed in it.

Training does matter in getting Super Saiyan, Goku gets angry and mad several times sooner and he never got Super Saiyan because he didn't reach a high enough strength level in his regular state to achieve it. Same thing with Vegeta, he gets absolutely furious at Goku and Freeza for outclassing him and yet it does nothing because his regular power isn't good enough to help trigger it along.

Anime bullshit doesn't count, why are you even using that for Gohan and Future Trunks? Yes, Cabba gets angry because someone threatened to kill his family, because no U6 Saiyan ever, in the entire history of their planet traveling, injustice fighting species has EVER gotten friends or family threatened or killed or gotten mad enough to even accidentally become a Super Saiyan. Right, sure and Base Goku being above Grade 2 Vegeta in M8 makes perfect sense. Kale is some bizarre freak of nature so I don't know why you're even using her as an example. an exception to the rule does not a rule make.

But all of this means little because even Toriyama, after going on a tirade about gentleness improving S-Cells says that yes, you do need certain levels of battle power to activate SS, it's not just about being nice otherwise Gohan would've been shitting out Super Saiyans 1 to Blue before Raditz even appeared. Not even gonna dignify the idiocy of us "western" fans not getting DB because the franchise is absolutely about training and getting stronger, it's a fundamental aspect of the series and the various Wuxia stories that inspired it.

[ricky84]

Yes because somehow, Saiyan genetics create a special Super Saiyan Cell based on how nice and/or angry you are now. People say Midi-chlorians are terrible but S-Cells almost by themsleves are proof DB shouldn't have come back.

S-Cells are pretty inoffensive. It’s just Toriyama’s way of explaining why Saiyans like Goten and Trunks have an easier time turning Super Saiyan compared to others like Goku and Vegeta. It’s a lot like how Clark Kent got stronger through living on a planet like Earth compared to everyone else on Krypton. Not to mention, the whole S-Cells thing has only been mentioned by a comment from Toriyama rather than from the material itself. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get brought up in this movie.

People say a lot of things about the Star Wars prequels, to the point of goddamn exhaustion. They’re mostly okay movies. Episode III is great, though. Idgaf what anyone says. That movie is heaps of fun.

S-Cells don't really explain anything though and could be argued to cause more problems. Gohan is a kind, gentle spirit who doesn't want to hurt or much less kill anyone and he has to work to get Super Saiyan the same way Goku and Vegeta did. Goku is also a kind, gentle soul who has no maliciousness in him and yet he has to work like crazy to get SS as well. Tarble is a soft Saiyan and is banished for it but he doesn't magically have an insane battle power because of it. U6 Saiyan's are all apparently nice people yet they've never attained Super Saiyan in the entire history of their species, unless you want to count the manga's lore drop of "The Legendary Saiyan!" as the exception.

It also feels like Toriyama's attempt at trying soften the rough edges of the Saiyan species which I feel is a detriment. Goku being the spawn of a race of genocidal monsters who killed and destroyed because they got off on it makes him becoming an unintentional (sometimes intentional) hero of Earth that much more poignant and makes his battle against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc considerably more effective. All this softening them up just annoys me and takes away from the series.

The reason why Midi-chlorians work, for me anyway, is two fold: there's obviously a genetic thing about the Force even in the OT and they're indifferent. Luke even says in Return that the Force runs strong in his family and that's pretty obvious by the fact he and Leia inherit Vader's Force potential. The second one is more important: midi-chlorians don't give a shit who you are, they don't care if you're angry or nice, they are an aspect of yourself you can use with training for whatever reason or not the same way lots of people never exercise certain muscles in their entire lives.

The indifference of the midi-chlorians to your personality feels appropriate to the SW setting and doesn't boil down things down to how nice and cuddly you are like S-Cells do. Look no further than Anakin/Vader for proof. Anakin had a crap load of midi-chlorians but because he coasted along with his raw potential and never really applied himself, he never realized his true power. Then when he lost most of his biological body, and most of his midi-chlorians by extension, he used what he had to become much, much more powerful than Anakin Skywalker ever was as Vader.

Another fact you forgot is that according to Toriyama, multiple factors play into how much S-cells a character has, not just their personality. He never said being nice/pure of heart is the main factor, just one of them (its the main reason why Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta in Z, Super is a different story). Others include your parents' power levels at birth (explaining Goten and Present Trunks), your own power level in general (explaining why none of the main cast it before the Late Namek arc), being raised under better conditions (another advantage of Goten, Present Trunks and the U6 saiyans), etc.

And you're wrong about midi-chlorians and Vader. Midi-chlorians are a problem because they go against everything about how the force works in the original trilogy. It was portrayed as a supernatural, mystic property that's tapped into through enlightenment (sort of like ki). Comparing it to S-cells is a false analogy because the SSJ transformations were always obviously a biological thing since its exclusive to a single race of mortal beings.

And no, Original-Trilogy Vader is not stronger than Prequel-Trilogy Anakin. This has been clarified in several SW spin-off material. Losing much of his body/midi-chlorians made him considerably weaker than his Revenge of the Sith counterpart and lower his potential to the point where he could never surpass Sidious.

[FortuneSSJ]

New DBMFL post continues to look at the artwork for the film.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I rathered that Planet Vegeta always had a red sky, but that's not bad. I love the fact that it has two moons though.

[ekrolo2]

S-Cells are pretty inoffensive. It’s just Toriyama’s way of explaining why Saiyans like Goten and Trunks have an easier time turning Super Saiyan compared to others like Goku and Vegeta. It’s a lot like how Clark Kent got stronger through living on a planet like Earth compared to everyone else on Krypton. Not to mention, the whole S-Cells thing has only been mentioned by a comment from Toriyama rather than from the material itself. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get brought up in this movie.

People say a lot of things about the Star Wars prequels, to the point of goddamn exhaustion. They’re mostly okay movies. Episode III is great, though. Idgaf what anyone says. That movie is heaps of fun.

S-Cells don't really explain anything though and could be argued to cause more problems. Gohan is a kind, gentle spirit who doesn't want to hurt or much less kill anyone and he has to work to get Super Saiyan the same way Goku and Vegeta did. Goku is also a kind, gentle soul who has no maliciousness in him and yet he has to work like crazy to get SS as well. Tarble is a soft Saiyan and is banished for it but he doesn't magically have an insane battle power because of it. U6 Saiyan's are all apparently nice people yet they've never attained Super Saiyan in the entire history of their species, unless you want to count the manga's lore drop of "The Legendary Saiyan!" as the exception.

It also feels like Toriyama's attempt at trying soften the rough edges of the Saiyan species which I feel is a detriment. Goku being the spawn of a race of genocidal monsters who killed and destroyed because they got off on it makes him becoming an unintentional (sometimes intentional) hero of Earth that much more poignant and makes his battle against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc considerably more effective. All this softening them up just annoys me and takes away from the series.

The reason why Midi-chlorians work, for me anyway, is two fold: there's obviously a genetic thing about the Force even in the OT and they're indifferent. Luke even says in Return that the Force runs strong in his family and that's pretty obvious by the fact he and Leia inherit Vader's Force potential. The second one is more important: midi-chlorians don't give a shit who you are, they don't care if you're angry or nice, they are an aspect of yourself you can use with training for whatever reason or not the same way lots of people never exercise certain muscles in their entire lives.

The indifference of the midi-chlorians to your personality feels appropriate to the SW setting and doesn't boil down things down to how nice and cuddly you are like S-Cells do. Look no further than Anakin/Vader for proof. Anakin had a crap load of midi-chlorians but because he coasted along with his raw potential and never really applied himself, he never realized his true power. Then when he lost most of his biological body, and most of his midi-chlorians by extension, he used what he had to become much, much more powerful than Anakin Skywalker ever was as Vader.

Another fact you forgot is that according to Toriyama, multiple factors play into how much S-cells a character has, not just their personality. He never said being nice/pure of heart is the main factor, just one of them (its the main reason why Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta in Z, Super is a different story). Others include your parents' power levels at birth (explaining Goten and Present Trunks), your own power level in general (explaining why none of the main cast it before the Late Namek arc), being raised under better conditions (another advantage of Goten, Present Trunks and the U6 saiyans), etc.

And you're wrong about midi-chlorians and Vader. Midi-chlorians are a problem because they go against everything about how the force works in the original trilogy. It was portrayed as a supernatural, mystic property that's tapped into through enlightenment (sort of like ki). Comparing it to S-cells is a false analogy because the SSJ transformations were always obviously a biological thing since its exclusive to a single race of mortal beings.

And no, Original-Trilogy Vader is not stronger than Prequel-Trilogy Anakin. This has been clarified in several SW spin-off material. Losing much of his body/midi-chlorians made him considerably weaker than his Revenge of the Sith counterpart and lower his potential to the point where he could never surpass Sidious.

Toriyama doesn't cite it as the only way you can do it but he does cite it specifically as the best way which pretty much puts a big edge in favor of this over things that make more sense like training. Hell, why does Vegeta even get any version of Super Saiyan if a gentle spirit is so pivotal? He's a remorseless, scum sucking, genocidal piece of shit until the seven year gap at which point he's still got more than enough issues to not classify as an actual, good person until well into the Boo arc. Which doesn't answer any of my other inquires like how no gentle, kind U6 Saiyan has discovered SS before or why a species based around rising above adversity is some helped by living on a less adverse planet.

The Force is clearly genetic, Luke and Leia are strong in the Force because they're Vader's children, Luke even says as much when he says the Force is strong in his family. Midi-chlorians are nothing more than an overt specification of something that's already a thing by Empire & Return, to act as though its not is ignoring whats in the story.

I don't know of any official material that says Vader is weaker than his ROTS counterpart, what I have heard is that in Legends he's worth around 80% of Palpatine's power in-spite of the fact he's a mutilated head, torse with four stumps and massive cybernetics keeping him together.

[ricky84]

None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions.

1. Vegeta himself said in the early Android arc that all that training he did in space got him nowhere. It was him getting pissed at himself for not being about catch up to Goku that allowed him to finally become SSJ.

2. Goku became SSJ by watching Krillin get killed and getting pissed at Freeza for it.

3. Future Trunks in the anime was shown to fail trying to transform by training, but finally does it after seeing Future Gohan dead.

4. Gohan in the anime does it when getting pissed at himself for not being able to do it by training with Goku.

5. Cabba does it after Vegeta threaten to kill his family.

6. Kale does it either by feeling intense jealousy (anime) or rage (manga).

The only ones to skip the emotional process were Present Trunks, Goten and Caulifla, and training wasn't much of a factor for them either. Even the non-canon examples like Bardock and M8 Broly were all done by emotional triggers, not any kind of hard work.

Western fans really need to let go of the hard-work fallacy when it comes to DB, because the franchise never really believed in it.

Training does matter in getting Super Saiyan, Goku gets angry and mad several times sooner and he never got Super Saiyan because he didn't reach a high enough strength level in his regular state to achieve it. Same thing with Vegeta, he gets absolutely furious at Goku and Freeza for outclassing him and yet it does nothing because his regular power isn't good enough to help trigger it along.

Anime bullshit doesn't count, why are you even using that for Gohan and Future Trunks? Yes, Cabba gets angry because someone threatened to kill his family, because no U6 Saiyan ever, in the entire history of their planet traveling, injustice fighting species has EVER gotten friends or family threatened or killed or gotten mad enough to even accidentally become a Super Saiyan. Right, sure and Base Goku being above Grade 2 Vegeta in M8 makes perfect sense. Kale is some bizarre freak of nature so I don't know why you're even using her as an example. an exception to the rule does not a rule make.

But all of this means little because even Toriyama, after going on a tirade about gentleness improving S-Cells says that yes, you do need certain levels of battle power to activate SS, it's not just about being nice otherwise Gohan would've been shitting out Super Saiyans 1 to Blue before Raditz even appeared. Not even gonna dignify the idiocy of us "western" fans not getting DB because the franchise is absolutely about training and getting stronger, it's a fundamental aspect of the series and the various Wuxia stories that inspired it.

That Toriyama interview confirms everything I've said bro lmao.

1. Nowhere in the original manga was it ever stated or implied that training alone is what give Gohan & Future Trunks SSJ1. The anime filler isn't contradicted at all.

2. Why the hell would the U6 saiyans randomly tap into a transformation they never previously seen or heard of, thus would set their mind into?

3. Nobody said it was all about being nice, did you even read my post?

4. And no, having a special heritage/biological advantages is a common theme in Wuxia stories too. There are several examples of Wuxia fiction were the hero puts in less hard work than his rivals yet is far stronger and more talented than them. Kind of like how Goku on the whole trains less than Vegeta, Piccolo and Tien yet is constantly stronger than them all, or Goku how is able to do the Kamehameha in one try (which took Roshi 50 years), or how Goku who has only been training with Whis for 2 years was able unlock UI, yet none the Gods of Destruction who have been training under Angels for millions of years could do the same.

"Nurture over nature" and "hardwork over talent" are Western fallacies. The entire point of training/hard work is to reach one's natural potential. If you don't have the natural potential (genetics/biology) to be able to do something, no amount of training/hard work will give you the ability to do it. This is a real life fact that has always been acknowledged in nearly all of Anime/Manga and Wuxia fiction. The S-cells concept is just another version of this.

[BlueBasilisk]

I figured that planet with the Palace was Vegeta. The village at the foot of the cliff looks like Bardock and Gine's village from Minus and strongly resembles Caulifla and Kale's village on Sadala. Nice that they confirmed it. I can imagine those two moons causing lots of trouble though...

None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions.

1. Vegeta himself said in the early Android arc that all that training he did in space got him nowhere. It was him getting pissed at himself for not being about catch up to Goku that allowed him to finally become SSJ.

2. Goku became SSJ by watching Krillin get killed and getting pissed at Freeza for it.

3. Future Trunks in the anime was shown to fail trying to transform by training, but finally does it after seeing Future Gohan dead.

4. Gohan in the anime does it when getting pissed at himself for not being able to do it by training with Goku.

5. Cabba does it after Vegeta threaten to kill his family.

6. Kale does it either by feeling intense jealousy (anime) or rage (manga).

The only ones to skip the emotional process were Present Trunks, Goten and Caulifla, and training wasn't much of a factor for them either. Even the non-canon examples like Bardock and M8 Broly were all done by emotional triggers, not any kind of hard work.

Western fans really need to let go of the hard-work fallacy when it comes to DB, because the franchise never really believed in it.

Just to add a bit to #4, in the manga it's even easier for Gohan. He just pisses himself off by imagining Frieza torturing his friends. And it works!

I think the point of the S-cells is to explain why the evil Saiyans on Vegeta were so weak compared to the ones we have now when every aspect of their biology is geared toward increasing power. Pretty much everything they could do wrong they were doing wrong and it kept them from realizing their true capabilities.

The Saiyans on Vegeta lived for battle like Goku and Vegeta do (or most of them were, apparently), but they were cruel and savage warmongers who rested on their natural power/zenkai and either did not know they could train to get stronger or didn't believe in doing so, which iirc would keep their S-cell count relatively low. On the opposite side of that you have Gine who is more gentle-hearted than the normal Saiyan which should hypothetically give her a higher S-cell count, but she didn't have a high natural power level so she got pushed off the battlefield and into a service job by a society that didn't believe in trying to raise up the weak, so there's no telling what kind of potential she might have had with proper training. I suspect most average full blooded Saiyans would be too hung up on MAH PRIDE like Vegeta was to properly humble themselves before a master anyway.

Gohan's personality is pretty similar to Gine's. He doesn't like fighting either but he had mentors like Goku and Piccolo who shaped him into a warrior. Then you have Goten and young Trunks who grew up in peaceful times but love to fight, so they're absurdly strong for their ages and things come easily to them. They figured out Super Saiyan on their own and Super Saiyan 3 in the span of maybe a week after seeing Goku do it once.

It's a very handy explanation for Goku being able to rocket past Vegeta on Namek despite being weaker than Raditz just a few months before. Goku got much bigger boosts from his zenkais than Vegeta did and he needed fewer of them to get as strong as he did. Vegeta never really kept neck and neck with Goku until Ressurection F, and by that point he'd accepted a domestic life and family and had become less savage and more peaceful.

I expect that's why the Universe 6 Saiyans seem to be so much stronger on average than the ones from Universe 7. They have a good balance of a good heart, peaceful environment along with the instinct to fight and a drive for self-improvement. Just look at the way Caulifla treated Kale despite her perceived weakness. I can't see a normal Vegeta Saiyan (Vegetan?) ever treating her that way or trying to boost her up, and they sure as hell wouldn't have talked her out of a berserk rage with kindness.

[ekrolo2]

None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions.

1. Vegeta himself said in the early Android arc that all that training he did in space got him nowhere. It was him getting pissed at himself for not being about catch up to Goku that allowed him to finally become SSJ.

2. Goku became SSJ by watching Krillin get killed and getting pissed at Freeza for it.

3. Future Trunks in the anime was shown to fail trying to transform by training, but finally does it after seeing Future Gohan dead.

4. Gohan in the anime does it when getting pissed at himself for not being able to do it by training with Goku.

5. Cabba does it after Vegeta threaten to kill his family.

6. Kale does it either by feeling intense jealousy (anime) or rage (manga).

The only ones to skip the emotional process were Present Trunks, Goten and Caulifla, and training wasn't much of a factor for them either. Even the non-canon examples like Bardock and M8 Broly were all done by emotional triggers, not any kind of hard work.

Western fans really need to let go of the hard-work fallacy when it comes to DB, because the franchise never really believed in it.

Training does matter in getting Super Saiyan, Goku gets angry and mad several times sooner and he never got Super Saiyan because he didn't reach a high enough strength level in his regular state to achieve it. Same thing with Vegeta, he gets absolutely furious at Goku and Freeza for outclassing him and yet it does nothing because his regular power isn't good enough to help trigger it along.

Anime bullshit doesn't count, why are you even using that for Gohan and Future Trunks? Yes, Cabba gets angry because someone threatened to kill his family, because no U6 Saiyan ever, in the entire history of their planet traveling, injustice fighting species has EVER gotten friends or family threatened or killed or gotten mad enough to even accidentally become a Super Saiyan. Right, sure and Base Goku being above Grade 2 Vegeta in M8 makes perfect sense. Kale is some bizarre freak of nature so I don't know why you're even using her as an example. an exception to the rule does not a rule make.

But all of this means little because even Toriyama, after going on a tirade about gentleness improving S-Cells says that yes, you do need certain levels of battle power to activate SS, it's not just about being nice otherwise Gohan would've been shitting out Super Saiyans 1 to Blue before Raditz even appeared. Not even gonna dignify the idiocy of us "western" fans not getting DB because the franchise is absolutely about training and getting stronger, it's a fundamental aspect of the series and the various Wuxia stories that inspired it.

That Toriyama interview confirms everything I've said bro lmao.

1. Nowhere in the original manga was it ever stated or implied that training alone is what give Gohan & Future Trunks SSJ1. The anime filler isn't contradicted at all.

2. Why the hell would the U6 saiyans randomly tap into a transformation they never previously seen or heard of, thus would set their mind into?

3. Nobody said it was all about being nice, did you even read my post?

4. And no, having a special heritage/biological advantages is a common theme in Wuxia stories too. There are several examples of Wuxia fiction were the hero puts in less hard work than his rivals yet is far stronger and more talented than them. Kind of like how Goku on the whole trains less than Vegeta, Piccolo and Tien yet is constantly stronger than them all, or Goku how is able to do the Kamehameha in one try (which took Roshi 50 years), or how Goku who has only been training with Whis for 2 years was able unlock UI, yet none the Gods of Destruction who have been training under Angels for millions of years could do the same.

"Nurture over nature" and "hardwork over talent" are Western fallacies. The entire point of training/hard work is to reach one's natural potential. If you don't have the natural potential (genetics/biology) to be able to do something, no amount of training/hard work will give you the ability to do it. This is a real life fact that has always been acknowledged in nearly all of Anime/Manga and Wuxia fiction. The S-cells concept is just another version of this.

1. I never said hard work alone got you through it, you're the one who said it was irrelevant to getting SS the first time as shown here: "None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions." The very first thing you said when this conversation started.

2. Why the hell did Yamoshi become the first Super Saiyan according to the logic of "You've never seen or heard of it therefore you can't get it!"? He wasn't aware of what a SS was or how you got it, neither was Goku or Cabba.

3. I did, which doesn't change the fact Toriyama is suddenly emphasizing the gentle spirit angle as the best way of getting SS, as per his own words.

4. How does Goku exactly train less than Vegeta, Piccolo or Tien? He's the one who went out and found various masters and means to push himself to new limits, Roshi even cites this as the reason Goku as a child is far above Yamcha and Krillin: Goku goes out and finds new things to push him while the two of them are stuck at Roshi. When the two of them do actually train under someone new like Popo, they get fairly good increases in power because of it. Do the Saiyan's have natural advantages over other species? Sure, doesn't mean they'll amount to anything without training. If Goku never trained as hard as he did, he'd never amount to anything.

I also never said anything about nature over nurture or that hard work beats talent, you're the one who said training was a Western fans thing being ingrained on Dragon Ball which it is absolutely not.

[ricky84]

Toriyama doesn't cite it as the only way you can do it but he does cite it specifically as the best way which pretty much puts a big edge in favor of this over things that make more sense like training. Hell, why does Vegeta even get any version of Super Saiyan if a gentle spirit is so pivotal? He's a remorseless, scum sucking, genocidal piece of shit until the seven year gap at which point he's still got more than enough issues to not classify as an actual, good person until well into the Boo arc. Which doesn't answer any of my other inquires like how no gentle, kind U6 Saiyan has discovered SS before or why a species based around rising above adversity is some helped by living on a less adverse planet.

1. Vegeta is a member of the royal family. Their power levels at birth are higher than the others on average (Tarble being the outlier), so their S-cells should logically be higher than others as well.

2. Why would the U6 saiyans tap into something they neither heard of nor even imagined randomly? That makes no logical sense.

3. "Which doesn't answer any of my other inquires like how no gentle, kind U6 Saiyan has discovered SS before or why a species based around rising above adversity is some helped by living on a less adverse planet. "

Because improving through training, discipline and emotional phases >> improving through constant warfare. Ever notice how the peaceful, disciplined hero is typically superior to the brutal savage in Wuxia stories? Its the same idea. And being raised in a better environment doesn't mean you don't fight. Just look at any warring First-World country like Imperial Japan for example.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, to link this little S-Cells tirade back on topic, it could be that Broly's unique disposition could be used as a means by which to lay out S-Cells plainly in the official story, and not just as a side-comment from Toriyama in an interview.

He has several powered-up states, and S-Cells could be a way of explaining why they're different than the usual Super Saiyan forms we have.

[ricky84]

I figured that planet with the Palace was Vegeta. The village at the foot of the cliff looks like Bardock and Gine's village from Minus and strongly resembles Caulifla and Kale's village on Sadala. Nice that they confirmed it. I can imagine those two moons causing lots of trouble though...

None of the cases of characters going SSJ for the first time had anything to do with training or hard work. They were all emotional/unconscious reactions.

1. Vegeta himself said in the early Android arc that all that training he did in space got him nowhere. It was him getting pissed at himself for not being about catch up to Goku that allowed him to finally become SSJ.

2. Goku became SSJ by watching Krillin get killed and getting pissed at Freeza for it.

3. Future Trunks in the anime was shown to fail trying to transform by training, but finally does it after seeing Future Gohan dead.

4. Gohan in the anime does it when getting pissed at himself for not being able to do it by training with Goku.

5. Cabba does it after Vegeta threaten to kill his family.

6. Kale does it either by feeling intense jealousy (anime) or rage (manga).

The only ones to skip the emotional process were Present Trunks, Goten and Caulifla, and training wasn't much of a factor for them either. Even the non-canon examples like Bardock and M8 Broly were all done by emotional triggers, not any kind of hard work.

Western fans really need to let go of the hard-work fallacy when it comes to DB, because the franchise never really believed in it.

Just to add a bit to #4, in the manga it's even easier for Gohan. He just pisses himself off by imagining Frieza torturing his friends. And it works!

I think the point of the S-cells is to explain why the evil Saiyans on Vegeta were so weak compared to the ones we have now when every aspect of their biology is geared toward increasing power. Pretty much everything they could do wrong they were doing wrong and it kept them from realizing their true capabilities.

The Saiyans on Vegeta lived for battle like Goku and Vegeta do (or most of them were, apparently), but they were cruel and savage warmongers who rested on their natural power/zenkai and either did not know they could train to get stronger or didn't believe in doing so, which iirc would keep their S-cell count relatively low. On the opposite side of that you have Gine who is more gentle-hearted than the normal Saiyan which should hypothetically give her a higher S-cell count, but she didn't have a high natural power level so she got pushed off the battlefield and into a service job by a society that didn't believe in trying to raise up the weak, so there's no telling what kind of potential she might have had with proper training. I suspect most average full blooded Saiyans would be too hung up on MAH PRIDE like Vegeta was to properly humble themselves before a master anyway.

Gohan's personality is pretty similar to Gine's. He doesn't like fighting either but he had mentors like Goku and Piccolo who shaped him into a warrior. Then you have Goten and young Trunks who grew up in peaceful times but love to fight, so they're absurdly strong for their ages and things come easily to them. They figured out Super Saiyan on their own and Super Saiyan 3 in the span of maybe a week after seeing Goku do it once.

It's a very handy explanation for Goku being able to rocket past Vegeta on Namek despite being weaker than Raditz just a few months before. Goku got much bigger boosts from his zenkais than Vegeta did and he needed fewer of them to get as strong as he did. Vegeta never really kept neck and neck with Goku until Ressurection F, and by that point he'd accepted a domestic life and family and had become less savage and more peaceful.

I expect that's why the Universe 6 Saiyans seem to be so much stronger on average than the ones from Universe 7. They have a good balance of a good heart, peaceful environment along with the instinct to fight and a drive for self-improvement. Just look at the way Caulifla treated Kale despite her perceived weakness. I can't see a normal Vegeta Saiyan (Vegetan?) ever treating her that way or trying to boost her up, and they sure as hell wouldn't have talked her out of a berserk rage with kindness.

You basically explained everything better than I did. Pre-Buu arc Vegeta and most U7 saiyans in general would have never considered seeking out a master for improvement, their egos wouldn't allow it lmao. That's why Vegeta embarrassing himself to get Whis to train him is such a big development for him. If Kale grew up on Planet Vegeta they would have treated her worse than Gine. Hell, they probably would have tried to kill her like baby Broly (despite her superior potential).

[ricky84]

Does anybody think Yamoshi had a U6 counterpart? And if he did do you think we would ever see or hear about him/her?

[ZeroNeonix]

Does anybody think Yamoshi had a U6 counterpart? And if he did do you think we would ever see or hear about him/her?

I actually have this fan theory that there were originally six universes that were eventually copy/pasted by Zeno. In that scenario, Yamoshi would be a part of both U6 and U7 history. It would explain why there are twin universes as well, as two universes just happening to evolve the exact same races independently of each other is highly improbable, and yet every single universe has a twin.

[BlueBasilisk]

Does anybody think Yamoshi had a U6 counterpart? And if he did do you think we would ever see or hear about him/her?

That's an interesting question. I don't see any reason why he couldn't have one. I think the rest depends on how much U6's history mirrors U7. If the evil Saiyans were never the dominant power in U6 then it's entirely possible said counterpart was an unremarkable Saiyan who lived an unremarkable life.

[Mister_Popo]

Do you guys think the entire fight against Broly can play on the earth? As for the part of the story that takes place in the past, we already have the new planet Banpa and Vegeta. The filmmakers have already provided two 'new' planets, so why design a third 'new' planet especially for the second part of the fight?

The fight against Broly shows three different sets:

1. The ice-like backdrop, probably one of the Earth pole caps, where the first part of the battle takes place. Presumably Goku and Vegeta will go there to Super Saiyan God.

2. The decor that resembles Resurrection F, with the rock cliffs and the blue water. That is very similar to earth. Goku's shirt is already ripped at that moment. This seems more like a continuation of the same fight as that on the ice (perhaps with a short break in between), then a second part on a completely separate planet.

3. The lava-like environment. In the fragments from the trailer we see that Broly versus Freeza, Bulma looking for 'something' and the final shot of Goku vs Broly play in that environment. Blue Goku has similar damage with the ROF environment.

Could not the lava-like planet be the earth? It is perhaps Broly's goal not to destroy the earth, but rather to win the fight against Goku. But we see that he has lost a lot of control in the end. There is also a shot of water that travels and huge energy ball in the background. Could that be the ROF-like environment that is destroyed and evaporated by the energy of the fight, energy that Broly can not fully control? After the destruction of the earth, the fight could continue, almost a la Namek, on a planet that has almost come to its end.