Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Just read Hermes translation and the Saiyan forms make more sense now, but it appears Trinks specifically asked Vegeta to not hold back, the question now becomes what Vegeta actually holding back a lot or is the SSB gap in power really that small, or both?

[BWri]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

Hi welcome to the forums. The main issue seems to be that there is a group that believes there should be a God Ki but not SSJ based form. Basically that God Ki and be flipped on and off or mixed independently of the SSJ form. To add further confusion the manga shows that form in the return of SSG where it utilizes God Ki but not SSJ. The manga basically showed the progression many expected with the Two base theory.

plain base < SSJ < SSG/God base < SSB

The problem is the manga seems to show

Plain base < SSJ < SSB and makes the base basically at God level this causes everyone who can take on Base Goku and higher God tier in the anime.

Thanks! I prefer the straightforward way the manga represents it. It seems like a straight line. The anime way would be better if they were more explicit in explaining it all. I could totally go with the two base theory then cuz it's simple when you get right down to it. All they'd have to do is have Piccolo or someone say "oh I can't sense Goku's ki now" "Vegeta's ki has disappeared" and I'd be okay with it. But manga has the simple way: base < SSJ-SSJ3 < SSG <SSB and I like that because it's explained.

I suppose the Copy Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks fight could be waved off as filler but I don't see it as being like Yamcha vs Olibu or Popo vs Goten and Trunks because their base forms should be more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks.

My terminology is wrong in this situation anyway, since there is no longer a single original source aside from Toriyama's note/script thingy, there is no filler really, just headcanon and my headcanon tells me the copy arc just aint right. But according to anime canon I guess it's a certainty that base Vegeta and Goku are stronger than SS3 Gotenks and now F. Trunks as well. Or was Goku just fighting F. Trunks and Black without god ki?

Whether it's been retconned or what now, Battle of Gods clearly showed Base Goku to be much stronger than Ultimate Gohan who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Copy Vegeta stomping SSJ3 Gotenks is one of the few things that's perfectly consistent to me at least.

That was in BoG? You mean after Goku absorbed the god powers post ritual?

[BWri]

I appreciate you guys here so much, man! Seriously! I've been lurking for a while and it's cool to see how much logic and effort you all put into what has become an illogical mess. I feel so bad for your overworked brains and the mental gymnastics you have to use to fit everything together. Because of that, I've seen some really creative theories here that have blown my mind.

Back in my day (I'm 27) the most controversial debate was probably the Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo in the Buu Arc. Now it seems to be the two base theory debate. Is there anything more controversial? The base Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks > SS3 Gotenks thing seems pretty suspect. What's the consensus on that? I looked at that copy arc as 100% filler (as much as it can be considered so in DBS) so to me it's nothing different than Yamcha vs Olibu. Just when I was hoping the power levels would stable (once during FnF and once before U6 when Veggie told 59 that they couldn't get much stronger) but the inflation is REAL.

There is no consensus on Base Trunks > SS3 Gotenks in the anime. It's just an idiotic statement tbh, and you'd have to suspend all kinds of logic and reasoning to believe in it. Vegeta was at the same level Trunks was when Trunks left at the end of the Cell arc, and in 7 years of training, Vegeta only unlocked SS2. That's it. He became nowhere near above SS3 Gotenks level. So how can Trunks get that far by training alone? You just shouldn't respect dumb statements tbh, and you're right, if the two base theory ends up being false in the anime I do think it might be filler that should not be taken seriously. In the manga I'm 100% sure he won't be anywhere near SS3 Gotenks level.

There is a consensus that the two base theory is true in the manga, since Goku uncontroversially has two bases, non-SSG Base and SSG, It's just a matter of definition and is undeniable. There isn't a consensus on the two base theory in the anime.

Logically speaking, yes Trunks should be at a similar level to Vegeta in all honesty. I could see him being a little higher or lower. My headcanon tells me that the copy-arc was shenanigans but with they way the show, manga, and movies work I just concede that its anime canon and that the anime levels will just be doomed to super inflation. Going by the anime's logic I think both Piccolo and Trunks got some crazy jumps, which is fine by me since they added to my enjoyment of the Cell saga. I don't think either are god level, but I do think they're mid to high tier Buu saga level in the anime. Manga wise I like Piccolo at somewhere above Dabura and Cell yet far below SPCell (it just makes sense to me) and I put Trunks' SSJ2 at somewhere between SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga. Well, Trunks is uncertain in the manga, but that level makes sense to me while still keeping him relevantly strong. We'll have to wait to see manga feats though to be certain.

[buutenks]

Base Goku can sense god ki, Trunks cannot. That means SSJ2 Trunks is not as strong as base Goku or Vegeta.

But still, considering he did survive an assault from ssj blue Vegeta(even tho he was obviously holding back) id say that still places ssj2 Trunks above ssj3 Gotenks.

What i believe is, Trunks took so many beatings from Black, that he jumped from ssj2 Gohan level, to High tier Buu saga level(Buuhan/Buutenks).

As to Trunks telling Vegeta to not hold back. Trunks was thinking Vegeta has ssj3, like Goku. ssj Blue is way out of ssj3 Goku's league. that is why vegeta was laughing, cos Trunks.

[Chiki]

Base Goku can sense god ki, Trunks cannot. That means SSJ2 Trunks is not as strong as base Goku or Vegeta.

But still, considering he did survive an assault from ssj blue Vegeta(even tho he was obviously holding back) id say that still places ssj2 Trunks above ssj3 Gotenks.

What i believe is, Trunks took so many beatings from Black, that he jumped from ssj2 Gohan level, to High tier Buu saga level(Buuhan/Buutenks).

As to Trunks telling Vegeta to not hold back. Trunks was thinking Vegeta has ssj3, like Goku. ssj Blue is way out of ssj3 Goku's league. that is why vegeta was laughing, cos Trunks.

No, there's no reason whatsoever to think that Trunks is any stronger than SS2 Vegeta from the Buu arc. He didn't undergo any special training. The fact that SS2 Trunks is nowhere near as strong as Base Goku or Vegeta is proof of the fact that he did not have any bullshit power ups. If he did not have any bullshit power ups, then there is no reason to think that he is above the SS2s of the Buu arc, period.

SSB Vegeta was just messing around with Trunks. Why would Vegeta OHKO Trunks and end their game just like that? That makes no sense. That wouldn't be a fair game. You admitted he was messing around so there's no reason to think that SS2 Trunks is stronger than Gotenks.

[buutenks]

Base Goku can sense god ki, Trunks cannot. That means SSJ2 Trunks is not as strong as base Goku or Vegeta.

But still, considering he did survive an assault from ssj blue Vegeta(even tho he was obviously holding back) id say that still places ssj2 Trunks above ssj3 Gotenks.

What i believe is, Trunks took so many beatings from Black, that he jumped from ssj2 Gohan level, to High tier Buu saga level(Buuhan/Buutenks).

As to Trunks telling Vegeta to not hold back. Trunks was thinking Vegeta has ssj3, like Goku. ssj Blue is way out of ssj3 Goku's league. that is why vegeta was laughing, cos Trunks.

No, there's no reason whatsoever to think that Trunks is any stronger than SS2 Vegeta from the Buu arc. He didn't undergo any special training. The fact that SS2 Trunks is nowhere near as strong as Base Goku or Vegeta is proof of the fact that he did not have any bullshit power ups. If he did not have any bullshit power ups, then there is no reason to think that he is above the SS2s of the Buu arc, period.

SSB Vegeta was just messing around with Trunks. Why would Vegeta OHKO Trunks and end their game just like that? That makes no sense. That wouldn't be a fair game. You admitted he was messing around so there's no reason to think that SS2 Trunks is stronger than Gotenks.

Hmm, also true. i guess, since ssj blue>>>>>base.

So ye i guess. Maybe Trunks is inbetween ssj2 and 3 from buu arc. Its not to far fetched to say he surpassed Majin Vegeta. Considering how much he got his butt kicked in one year by Black.

[Bullza]

How you figure? Because he knocked Vegeta down when he was off-guard?

No, Super Saiyan Cabba was knocked unconscious from a small punch to the gut. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks took a kick and several punches and was still conscious. He also asked him to not hold back too.

So SSJ2 Trunks > SSJ Cabba.

[buutenks]

How you figure? Because he knocked Vegeta down when he was off-guard?

No, Super Saiyan Cabba was knocked unconscious from a small punch to the gut. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks took a kick and several punches and was still conscious. He also asked him to not hold back too.

So SSJ2 Trunks > SSJ Cabba.

Eh, Trunks had ssj3 in mind. After which vegeta laughed. Vegeta was obviously holding back allot.

Also ssj2 Trunks is not strong enough to feel god ki, while base Goku can. That is proof enough that ssj2 Trunks is nowhere near base Goku/Vegeta.

SSjb>>>>>ssj2>>ssj>>base Goku/Vegeta>>>>>>>ssj2 Trunks.

[Chiki]

Base Goku can sense god ki, Trunks cannot. That means SSJ2 Trunks is not as strong as base Goku or Vegeta.

But still, considering he did survive an assault from ssj blue Vegeta(even tho he was obviously holding back) id say that still places ssj2 Trunks above ssj3 Gotenks.

What i believe is, Trunks took so many beatings from Black, that he jumped from ssj2 Gohan level, to High tier Buu saga level(Buuhan/Buutenks).

As to Trunks telling Vegeta to not hold back. Trunks was thinking Vegeta has ssj3, like Goku. ssj Blue is way out of ssj3 Goku's league. that is why vegeta was laughing, cos Trunks.

No, there's no reason whatsoever to think that Trunks is any stronger than SS2 Vegeta from the Buu arc. He didn't undergo any special training. The fact that SS2 Trunks is nowhere near as strong as Base Goku or Vegeta is proof of the fact that he did not have any bullshit power ups. If he did not have any bullshit power ups, then there is no reason to think that he is above the SS2s of the Buu arc, period.

SSB Vegeta was just messing around with Trunks. Why would Vegeta OHKO Trunks and end their game just like that? That makes no sense. That wouldn't be a fair game. You admitted he was messing around so there's no reason to think that SS2 Trunks is stronger than Gotenks.

Hmm, also true. i guess, since ssj blue>>>>>base.

So ye i guess. Maybe Trunks is inbetween ssj2 and 3 from buu arc. Its not to far fetched to say he surpassed Majin Vegeta. Considering how much he got his butt kicked in one year by Black.

Maybe. I get the impression that Zenkai boosts no longer exist though.

[HeroR]

How you figure? Because he knocked Vegeta down when he was off-guard?

No, Super Saiyan Cabba was knocked unconscious from a small punch to the gut. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks took a kick and several punches and was still conscious. He also asked him to not hold back too.

So SSJ2 Trunks > SSJ Cabba.

But Vegeta wasn't trying to knock Trunks out since they were training. With Cabba, he didn't hold back and floored him.

[Bullza]

Also ssj2 Trunks is not strong enough to feel god ki, while base Goku can. That is proof enough that ssj2 Trunks is nowhere near base Goku/Vegeta.

SSjb>>>>>ssj2>>ssj>>base Goku/Vegeta>>>>>>>ssj2 Trunks.

Well yeah obviously Goku has absorbed the power of a God and has the power within him already so of course he'd be able to sense God Ki. Trunks hasn't even come across it before.

It doesn't make any sense for SSJ2 Trunks to be weaker than their base forms, that'd make him weaker than Magetta, Frost and Cabba. He's already got feats that put him above SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ Cabba and Frost. There's no indication that Magetta, Frost and Cabba could have sensed God Ki either.

There's no way he'd have been able to keep track and withstand a kick from SSJB Vegeta if he was that weak.

But Vegeta wasn't trying to knock Trunks out since they were training. With Cabba, he didn't hold back and floored him.

He told Vegeta not to hold back and it's not in his nature to do so. If Trunks were that weak he'd be taken out with a Beerus' style poke let alone still be standing from a kick.

[Chiki]

One observation I made this ep: some people think that Cabba can sense SSB Vegeta's ki because he says "I can possess this power?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNgykntrIzE

Hit can sense SSB Kaioken Goku's ki despite having no prior experiences with gods. It's made abundantly clear that people who are strong enough can sense god ki, such as Base Vegeta (who never got SSG, so he has no experience with SSG), maybe Cabba and Hit.

[TheMikado]

So I'm curious, Trunks specifically asked Vegeta to not hold back if the consensus he did to ridiculous levels or is SSB not actually that powerful?

With this last episode I can see the two base theory not applying to the anime ONLY if SSB isn't much stronger than SSJ3.

We know in the anime multipliers still apply.

Base is maybe x500 what it was in Buu arc, SSJ4 would be x400 over base and a SSB is like an x500 multiplier in my opinion.

So SSB would be like 250,000x stronger than their Buu arc base. which is definitely God level.

All that said I don't see how Vegeta could be holding back SSB to less than SSJ3 restrained Goku levels and Trunksvcant sense it anyway so what's the point?

[Chiki]

So I'm curious, Trunks specifically asked Vegeta to not hold back if the consensus he did to ridiculous levels or is SSB not actually that powerful?

With this last episode I can see the two base theory not applying to the anime ONLY if SSB isn't much stronger than SSJ3.

We know in the anime multipliers still apply.

Base is maybe x500 what it was in Buu arc, SSJ4 would be x400 over base and a SSB is like an x500 multiplier in my opinion.

So SSB would be like 250,000x stronger than their Buu arc base. which is definitely God level.

All that said I don't see how Vegeta could be holding back SSB to less than SSJ3 restrained Goku levels and Trunksvcant sense it anyway so what's the point?

Well I'd need to watch the battle with subs (no subs out yet) but I didn't see Trunks telling Vegeta to hold back in SSB with my tiny bit of Japanese.

Also it's entirely possible to hold back in SSB. In RoF the movie, Sorbet's weak-ass laser ring blew a hole inside SSB Goku's heart lol.

[Draconic]

Trunks told Vegeta not to hold back and use Super Saiyan 3, thinking it was his greatest transformation. Vegeta laughs it off and turns Super Saiyan Blue, saying Super Saiyan 3 is nothing compared to that. It never points out to him NOT holding back in the Blue form, just not holding back the form itself, like Goku.

EDIT: Just to clarify, not Vegeta is saying SSJ3 is nothing, but how the scene itself plays out does.

[Noah]

Damn, call about inconsistency! SSGSS might be supressed as shit, because 1-Hit by SSJ3 Goku was enough to finish Trunks but this same Trunks withstood SSGSS Vegeta blows, f****** Super power scale!

[TheMikado]

Damn, call about inconsistency! SSGSS might be supressed as shit, because 1-Hit by SSJ3 Goku was enough to finish Trunks but this same Trunks withstood SSGSS Vegeta blows, f****** Super power scale!

Yeah exactly my problem, and if you go a few pages back you see everyone talking about how super surpressed Goku was against Trunks... Like this should be finger flick city in the SSB fight unless as I stated before the difference between SSJ3 and SSB really isn't very large at all.

[Noah]

Yeah exactly my problem, and if you go a few pages back you see everyone talking about how super surpressed Goku was against Trunks... Like this should be finger flick city in the SSB fight unless as I stated before the difference between SSJ3 and SSB really isn't very large at all.

Well, I starting to think that Goku and Vegeta can supress their power regardless of the form they are, I mean they can transform into a SSGSS that has its power 100 and battle like was 5, something like that... Don't know why this is useful, though.

[Chiki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Twizc8zQHg

So unless you guys think Sorbet's laser ring is Beerus level...

I doubt Sorbet's laser ring could put a hole through Recoome's chest.

[buutenks]

Jeez, Vegeta just held back. He wasn't trying to kill Trunks lol.

Also I watched with sub's. Trunks says to not hold back and for vegeta to use ssj3. Then Vegeta laughs and goes ssjb.

Plus again, Trunks is unable to sense god ki. And Whis in RoF arc says: Vegeta got strong enough to be able to sense god ki.

So either u r a god and can sense god ki, or u r very powerful and can sense god ki. Trunks is neither.