That doesn't contradict the fact that Goku needed SSG to beat Trunks.
Black getting a Super Saiyan Flower boost from his Base which is well above SS3 level is scary.
He didn't need SSG to win, he needed SSG to one shot Trunks.
Well he couldn't win with SS3
And where is this stated?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
It's not, and Goku probably could have edged him out of he finished it quick enough. If I understood it correctly Vegeta said ALMOST as strong. Combined with Gokus battle experience Goku has the edge in the SSJ2 vs SSJ3 fight. Trunks takes all lower tiers though which Whis seems to agree with.
SSJ3 Goku would have a difficult battle with Trunks if he fought. But Goku wanted to look crazy powerful to Trunks, so he sneakily went SSG to one shot him, because he's the usual immature Goku lol.
OLKv3 wrote:SSJ3 Goku would have a difficult battle with Trunks if he fought. But Goku wanted to look crazy powerful to Trunks, so he sneakily went SSG to one shot him, because he's the usual immature Goku lol.
Yeah, I legit love this as a character beat.
Willing to help his friends, but still kind of a competive dick.
OLKv3 wrote:SSJ3 Goku would have a difficult battle with Trunks if he fought. But Goku wanted to look crazy powerful to Trunks, so he sneakily went SSG to one shot him, because he's the usual immature Goku lol.
Yeah, I legit love this as a character beat.
Willing to help his friends, but still kind of a competive dick.
I'd like that if he weren't so selective about it. He'll do a sudden jump for Trunks to end a fight fast, but drag the fight out with the bad guys? It feels inconsistent. You'd think the reverse of dragging out a fight with friends, and ascending to quickly dispatch a foe would make a lot more sense for competitive dickness.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kanassa wrote:
He didn't need SSG to win, he needed SSG to one shot Trunks.
Well he couldn't win with SS3
And where is this stated?
SS2 Trunks is around SS3 Goku's power level, it's stated. And we know that SS3 Goku has terrible stamina and loses his power in a few minutes. So I don't see how Goku could beat Trunks without SSG.
SS2 Trunks is around SS3 Goku's power level, it's stated. And we know that SS3 Goku has terrible stamina and loses his power in a few minutes. So I don't see how Goku could beat Trunks without SSG.
Almost at SS3 Goku's level, and none of this points to Goku being unable to beat Trunks as a SS3. Plus, Goku has probably had enough time to improve SS3 a bit, maybe hold it longer.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
OLKv3 wrote:SSJ3 Goku would have a difficult battle with Trunks if he fought. But Goku wanted to look crazy powerful to Trunks, so he sneakily went SSG to one shot him, because he's the usual immature Goku lol.
Yeah, I legit love this as a character beat.
Willing to help his friends, but still kind of a competive dick.
I'd like that if he weren't so selective about it. He'll do a sudden jump for Trunks to end a fight fast, but drag the fight out with the bad guys? It feels inconsistent. You'd think the reverse of dragging out a fight with friends, and ascending to quickly dispatch a foe would make a lot more sense for competitive dickness.
He's usually ready to end it once he's seen what the opponent can do. Trunks, even powered up, isn't new to him.
He also wants to look good in front of Trunks. Kind of a matter of expectations. This feels (hilariously) in character to me.
SS2 Trunks is around SS3 Goku's power level, it's stated. And we know that SS3 Goku has terrible stamina and loses his power in a few minutes. So I don't see how Goku could beat Trunks without SSG.
Almost at SS3 Goku's level, and none of this points to Goku being unable to beat Trunks as a SS3. Plus, Goku has probably had enough time to improve SS3 a bit, maybe hold it longer.
Yes, almost, and the power gap is probably small enough for Trunks to stall out for a few minutes and win. How do you expect SS3 Goku to win when the power gap is so small? Use the Avada Kedavra curse or something?
Cipher wrote:
Yeah, I legit love this as a character beat.
Willing to help his friends, but still kind of a competive dick.
I'd like that if he weren't so selective about it. He'll do a sudden jump for Trunks to end a fight fast, but drag the fight out with the bad guys? It feels inconsistent. You'd think the reverse of dragging out a fight with friends, and ascending to quickly dispatch a foe would make a lot more sense for competitive dickness.
He's usually ready to end it once he's seen what the opponent can do. Trunks, even powered up, isn't new to him.
He also wants to look good in front of Trunks. Kind of a matter of expectations. This feels (hilariously) in character to me.
True, but it's been over a decade since last seeing him. They barely fought at all either in the first place. They also never fought against each other at full strength. It feels very plot selective rather than natural.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Chiki wrote:
SS2 Trunks is around SS3 Goku's power level, it's stated. And we know that SS3 Goku has terrible stamina and loses his power in a few minutes. So I don't see how Goku could beat Trunks without SSG.
Almost at SS3 Goku's level, and none of this points to Goku being unable to beat Trunks as a SS3. Plus, Goku has probably had enough time to improve SS3 a bit, maybe hold it longer.
Yes, almost, and the power gap is probably small enough for Trunks to stall out for a few minutes and win. How do you expect SS3 Goku to win when the power gap is so small? Use the Avada Kedavra curse or something?
By kicking Trunks's ass? Goku had more experience and power then Trunks, especially since he's been training with Whis. Goku did not need SSG to win, just to win instantly.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Cipher wrote:
Yeah, I legit love this as a character beat.
Willing to help his friends, but still kind of a competive dick.
I'd like that if he weren't so selective about it. He'll do a sudden jump for Trunks to end a fight fast, but drag the fight out with the bad guys? It feels inconsistent. You'd think the reverse of dragging out a fight with friends, and ascending to quickly dispatch a foe would make a lot more sense for competitive dickness.
He's usually ready to end it once he's seen what the opponent can do. Trunks, even powered up, isn't new to him.
He also wants to look good in front of Trunks. Kind of a matter of expectations. This feels (hilariously) in character to me.
I agree with you on that. I feel like this is something Goku would do. Let the other guy think he's strong and then bam! One shot him with a new transformation.
Also I really love how the manga shows us that Black knows more of Goku's tricks besides the Kamehameha, seeing him use Instantaneous Movement was a great surprise. I know the anime showed us a bit of this but it looked to be just him trying to sense Trunks's battle power. I also love the bit where Black was about to kill Trunks with his own sword.
And Toyotaro just loves that Red Super Saiyan God form doesn't he. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's keeping the form relevant to the story unlike Toei and their anime.
Last edited by Quantum-Kakarrotto on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dbzfan7 wrote:
I'd like that if he weren't so selective about it. He'll do a sudden jump for Trunks to end a fight fast, but drag the fight out with the bad guys? It feels inconsistent. You'd think the reverse of dragging out a fight with friends, and ascending to quickly dispatch a foe would make a lot more sense for competitive dickness.
He's usually ready to end it once he's seen what the opponent can do. Trunks, even powered up, isn't new to him.
He also wants to look good in front of Trunks. Kind of a matter of expectations. This feels (hilariously) in character to me.
True, but it's been over a decade since last seeing him. They barely fought at all either in the first place. They also never fought against each other at full strength. It feels very plot selective rather than natural.
Eh, to me it's sufficiently different from his tendency to prolong a life-or-death battle against new opponents (which he only gets so many of, you know?).
Trunks is a character he's "supposed" to be stronger than. It's like, "Jeez, this kid really looks up to me and came back for my help. Can't let him down." That, in combination with his competitive streak and not wanting to get pushed around in his "higher" form, leads him him going for ridiculous overkill and trying to hide how he did it. Immature, in character for me. It's kind of like Goku distracting Vegeta to take the win at the end of "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return." Sometimes he's just a ludicrous dick to friendly rivals.
Sorry for the stacked quotes. On my phone currently, which makes it hard to delete text.
Last edited by Cipher on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cipher wrote:
He's usually ready to end it once he's seen what the opponent can do. Trunks, even powered up, isn't new to him.
He also wants to look good in front of Trunks. Kind of a matter of expectations. This feels (hilariously) in character to me.
True, but it's been over a decade since last seeing him. They barely fought at all either in the first place. They also never fought against each other at full strength. It feels very plot selective rather than natural.
Eh, to me it's sufficiently different from his tendency to prolong a life-or-death battle against new opponents (which he only gets so many of, you know?).
Trunks is a character he's "supposed" to be stronger than. It's like, "Jeez, this kid really looks up to me and came back for my help. Can't let him down." That, in combination with his competitive streak and not wanting to get pushed around in his "higher" form, leads him him going for ridiculous overkill and trying to hide how he did it. Immature, in character for me. It's kind of like Goku distracting Vegeta to take the win at the end of "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return." Sometimes he's just a ludicrous dick to friendly rivals.
Sorry for the stacked quoting. On my phone currently, which makes it hard to delete text.
But as I said, he hardly fought Trunks at all. I see what you're saying, but it feels against his nature to rush a fight. Makes the battle too easy, which I feel Goku would find boring. Which is why he doesn't rush against weaker opponents even if they're out to kill him.
I don't see that as really any different from his tons of fights with Vegeta. He's fought him way more, and doesn't rush those fights. He takes his time with Vegeta.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Chiki wrote:Toyotaro might be a more talented artist than us, but a talented story writer? No way in heck. The guy put Xicor in Dragonball AF after all.
If your complaint about his writing is Xicor, then you've missed the entire point of the AF dojinshi. Toyble's whole goal was to to make a coherent story out of all the old AF rumors, thus the project was always working with restrictions.
GodVegetto91 wrote:On a side note you didn't really need to mention all the anime counterpart events compared to the manga. (We all know what happened) and that makes the read unneccesarily complicated.
That being said i fully appreciate you taking the time to translate it. And thank you for that.
If you don't like it, then just ignore the counterpart bits. These only pop up once a month. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but not everyone knows what happens. It might be the common expectation that everyone is following along, but I know more than a few members on this very forum who, for whatever their reasons, aren't. Kanzenshuu isn't the only place I post these tidbits either, and so I provide context and will continue to do so.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)
dbzfan7 wrote:But as I said, he hardly fought Trunks at all. I see what you're saying, but it feels against his nature to rush a fight. Makes the battle too easy, which I feel Goku would find boring. Which is why he doesn't rush against weaker opponents even if they're out to kill him.
I don't see that as really any different from his tons of fights with Vegeta. He's fought him way more, and doesn't rush those fights. He takes his time with Vegeta.
Wasn't that mostly an anime thing though? I don't remember manga Goku dragging on battles like that. He quickly used SSJ2 against Yakkon out of all things.
Chiki wrote:Toyotaro might be a more talented artist than us, but a talented story writer? No way in heck. The guy put Xicor in Dragonball AF after all.
If your complaint about his writing is Xicor, then you've missed the entire point of the AF dojinshi. Toyble's whole goal was to to make a coherent story out of all the old AF rumors, thus the project was always working with restrictions.
GodVegetto91 wrote:On a side note you didn't really need to mention all the anime counterpart events compared to the manga. (We all know what happened) and that makes the read unneccesarily complicated.
That being said i fully appreciate you taking the time to translate it. And thank you for that.
If you don't like it, then just ignore the counterpart bits. These only pop up once a month. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but not everyone knows what happens. It might be the common expectation that everyone is following along, but I know more than a few members on this very forum who, for whatever their reasons, aren't. Kanzenshuu isn't the only place I post these tidbits either, and so I provide context and will continue to do so.
That doesn't contradict the fact that Goku needed SSG to beat Trunks.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Trunks was at SS3 Goku's level.
