Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

Yajirobe - 800
Chaozu - 1,000
Son Gohan - 1,307
Yamcha - 1,350
Kuririn - 1,625
Tenshinhan - 1,750
Piccolo - 2,500


How powerful do you guys have Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho (against Semi Cell)? Do you guys think it would have destroyed #17/#18/#16/Imperfect Cell?

For my power level list, I put it at around 600 million as a joke (Fuck power levels, fuck Super Saiyans, and Fuck You!!!). If I were to rate it seriously, it would be about 60 million, or on par with the 20x Kamehameha that Goku used against Freeza. Probably less than that, if I gave it more thought. If Tenshinhan tried it against stage 1 Cell or any of the androids, it'd do the same thing that it did to stage 2 Cell: nothing other than keep them pinned down.

[apex_pretador]

Yajirobe - 800
Chaozu - 1,000
Son Gohan - 1,307
Yamcha - 1,350
Kuririn - 1,625
Tenshinhan - 1,750
Piccolo - 2,500


How powerful do you guys have Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho (against Semi Cell)? Do you guys think it would have destroyed #17/#18/#16/Imperfect Cell?

I think it was extremely powerful & would've destroyed all transformations of freeza & even pre-death vegeta.
I also think that it'd hurt initial true form freeza a bit.

[Kamiccolo9]

It would've wiped all of the Androids out.

Tien: 160,000
Neo Kikoho: 1,600,000,000
Semi-Cell: 2,400,000,000

Then I suppose that the obvious question is "why didn't he use it after 18 beat Vegeta? " I mean, what did he have to gain from holding back while 17 was taking them apart?

[apex_pretador]

It would've wiped all of the Androids out.

Tien: 160,000
Neo Kikoho: 1,600,000,000
Semi-Cell: 2,400,000,000

Then I suppose that the obvious question is "why didn't he use it after 18 beat Vegeta? " I mean, what did he have to gain from holding back while 17 was taking them apart?

exactly.

Shin kikoho could've wiped out tien though

[Hugo Boss]

It would've wiped all of the Androids out.

Tien: 160,000
Neo Kikoho: 1,600,000,000
Semi-Cell: 2,400,000,000

Then I suppose that the obvious question is "why didn't he use it after 18 beat Vegeta? " I mean, what did he have to gain from holding back while 17 was taking them apart?

Perhaps Shin Kikoho wasn't planned ahead. This portion also has another few slips, like Vegeta not using Big Bang Attack against No.18, just ordinary ki blasts, and Piccolo not using the techniques he used in his second round with No.17 (though you could atribute it to God's arsenal despite him mentioning nothing other than broader vision).

In another hand, to keep things consistent, I don't think it would kill the androids, it should buy time for them to escape, though with the self sacrifice of Tenshinhan. The problem is, the androids know where to find them and No.16 can locate them precisely, so it would be pointless to hold them back.

[Saiga]

It's not really a slip in those cases though - Big Bang Attack isn't really that different from generic ki blasts anyway, it's reasonable to say that it's stronger but if so it likely also means it's more draining which justifies well enough why he didn't use it. It wouldn't have won the fight for him and he was already losing stamina too fast.

Piccolo's two showings in his fight with 17 were a new tactic (Hellzone Grenade) which could simply be improvisation and a really big blast (Light Grenade) that wouldn't have been so impressive if he weren't fused with God.

These are both significantly different to Ten and this hypothetical Android-killing Shin Kikoho, which is way beyond any other option Ten has and would definitely resolve the situation.

[Hugo Boss]

In Vegeta's case, it doesn't seem he was caring for the stamina problem. Piccolo seemed more worried about it, since he lasted a while longer than Vegeta and he was possibly trying to find an openning to deliver a fatal blow. If the generic ki blasts weren't damaging No.18 at all, why not to try a stronger version? Preserving stamina wouldn't help him if he can't damage her with ordinary means.

Piccolo's case can be justified though by God's assimilation. Not really a slip as I thought.

Either way, those cases were not suposed to resolve the situation. They came more in mind to justify how they could have used other methods in the fight while not necessarily deciding the outcome.

[ahill1]

When Imperfect Cell showed himself while Piccolo was fighting #17, Tenshinhan said that it's all over. After this, he dicided he would help Piccolo, but called himself useless. I don't think this is the way someone who has an ace up his sleeve would act, even more if it could kill #17/18/Imperfect Cell. When Tenshinhan was defeated by #17, he even called the situation hopeless... I find it hard the 3 eyes could have defeated #17 all of a sudden.

But the Shin Kikoho seems to be at least stronger than that super powerful Piccolo's attack, which did not cause nothing to Imperfect Cell, while Ten's Neo Tri Beam was able to push Semi Cell.

[apex_pretador]

When Imperfect Cell showed himself while Piccolo was fighting #17, Tenshinhan said that it's all over. After this, he dicided he would help Piccolo, but called himself useless. I don't think this is the way someone who has an ace up his sleeve would act, even more if it could kill #17/18/Imperfect Cell. When Tenshinhan was defeated by #17, he even called the situation hopeless... I find it hard the 3 eyes could have defeated #17 all of a sudden.

But the Shin Kikoho seems to be at least stronger than that super powerful Piccolo's attack, which did not cause nothing to Imperfect Cell, while Ten's Neo Tri Beam was able to push Semi Cell.

Piccolo's attack also "pushed" cell

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

My guess is Tien wasn't entirely aware of how powerful the Neo Kikoho really was. He'd obviously know it was far more powerful than a Kikoho, but he probably didn't think it'd be anything special against the Androids. Since Cell was close to absorbing #18, he literally had no choice but to do it. In the other situation, he could at least get his ass kicked alongside the Super Saiyans and not be expected to do anything special. I think the attack was far stronger than anything the others could've did at that point.

If he was aware that this technique could've given them a chance to finish the Androids rather quickly, then he's, well, stupid. Kinda like how Krillin sliced Freeza's tail off with a Kienzan, blinded him with Taiyoken, then yells for Vegeta to attack Freeza instead of tossing another Kienzan at Freeza. Freeza saga would've been over.

[emperior]

My guess is Tien wasn't entirely aware of how powerful the Neo Kikoho really was. He'd obviously know it was far more powerful than a Kikoho, but he probably didn't think it'd be anything special against the Androids. Since Cell was close to absorbing #18, he literally had no choice but to do it. In the other situation, he could at least get his ass kicked alongside the Super Saiyans and not be expected to do anything special. I think the attack was far stronger than anything the others could've did at that point.

If he was aware that this technique could've given them a chance to finish the Androids rather quickly, then he's, well, stupid. Kinda like how Krillin sliced Freeza's tail off with a Kienzan, blinded him with Taiyoken, then yells for Vegeta to attack Freeza instead of tossing another Kienzan at Freeza. Freeza saga would've been over.

No way Freeza would have taken Krillin's kienzan a second time, even if he was blinded. First time Krillin got lucky just because Freeza hadn't thought of his tail when dodging the kienzan, and Freeza's reaction time and reflexes were incredible, he would have heard of the kienzan, and recognising it he would have surely dodged it. Remember kienzan isn't very fast and surely wasn't very fast fired off from Krillin whose power was nothing compared to Freeza.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He was yelling about his eyes and was blinded for a few more pages, so he didn't appear to be focused. Certainly not enough to know where the Kienzan is. We see how an unfocused Freeza is sliced in two by his own Kienzan.

Even if he could dodge it while blinded, it would've been better than yelling out loud for Vegeta to attack him. Also, Krillin's Rapid Kienzan was actually pretty quick:

Spoiler:

Krillin's chances of one on a blinded Freeza were a lot better than Vegeta doing something.

[ekrolo2]

Weak attempt to defend that scene: maybe Krillin spent too much energy on all those Kienzan's and couldn't make another?

[Gorou]

Yes, it's depressing as no one ever thinks to use a Taioken-Kienzan combo.
Toei, among the all idiotic things that he added, has done well to give limits to Kienzan.

Weak attempt to defend that scene: maybe Krillin spent too much energy on all those Kienzan's and couldn't make another?

I do not think requires a lot of energy. Vegeta, on earth, uses one when she was in very, very bad condition.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Weak attempt to defend that scene: maybe Krillin spent too much energy on all those Kienzan's and couldn't make another?

Well, Dende just healed him, so it'd be kinda odd for him to be out of energy that quickly. Also, Gorou made a good point about Vegeta.

[Gorou]

About Shin Kikoho: I've always seen with a shot designed to fend off the opponent, regardless of strength. In the Buu saga Tenshinhan has deviated even a blast of Buutenks.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I always assumed the blast wasn't that strong because it was aimed at Dende.

When Boo created that huge attack, Tien admitted he was too useless to do anything there.

[Khin]

I never claimed that Nappa was "a smart dude." I only claimed that he had seen the Earthlings hide their true battle powers before and that the concept wasn't exactly new to him by the time he was told of Son Goku's 5,000 battle power.

Difference being: Nappa knows about the Earthlings hiding their true power. There's nothing to say that Nappa would have any experience with an attack like the Kienzan.

Nappa said that before Vegeta told him that the Earthlings hide their true power, not after.

• Nappa already knew that the earthlings can change their Ki at will considering he saw their fight with Raditz along with Vegeta.Yet,he was still dumb enough to believe that a surpressed BP of Piccolo,Gohan and Kuririn are there full power.

Nappa doesn't seem nervous at all in the scan I posted. And what do you mean by Goku "debunked" that smile? Do you mean that he later powered up and easily defeated Nappa thus contradicting Nappa's confidence? Because by the same logic, I can say that Goku "debunked" Vegeta's confidence when he beat him up with Kaioken x3.

• You don't seem to understand what's my point is.Goku debunked that smile by easily beating him w/o the need of kaioken.Goku says Nappa is nothing special as he casually beats him and we the fact that Nappa can't change his Ki unlike the earthlings so Nappa is always at 4,000 or whatever you put him at.And Goku literally thinks that BP is nothing special.Even before Nappa loses his concentration,Goku was already casually dodging his punches.

The reaction is similar because both express shock and concern at Son Goku's power. Even later when Goku is powering up to 8,000, Vegeta has the same shocked/worried expression that Nappa did when he heard that Goku's approaching battle power was 5,000.

• As i said before.Vegeta's reaction at that time has nothing to do with Goku's PL as he just said after that scene that Goku may have change the outcome of the fight.Not only that,he also believes that Goku's 5,000 PL is not his true power.

[Saiga]

In Vegeta's case, it doesn't seem he was caring for the stamina problem. Piccolo seemed more worried about it, since he lasted a while longer than Vegeta and he was possibly trying to find an openning to deliver a fatal blow. If the generic ki blasts weren't damaging No.18 at all, why not to try a stronger version? Preserving stamina wouldn't help him if he can't damage her with ordinary means.

Piccolo's case can be justified though by God's assimilation. Not really a slip as I thought.

Either way, those cases were not suposed to resolve the situation. They came more in mind to justify how they could have used other methods in the fight while not necessarily deciding the outcome.

Vegeta didn't pull out the BBA against 19 until the finishing blow, for starters. The fight with 18 didn't last long enough for Vegeta to exhaust every option available to him.

Which is the biggest difference with Ten's case - Ten had no other options. If the Shin Kikoho is that strong, it blows anything else he can do out of the water which makes it really weird that he wouldn't use it at all.

[Desassina]

Without completely disregarding Akira Toriyama's numbers towards Battle of Gods, what do you think of:

[Beerus]
-- 70% -- 7 (from Whis' hint)
-- 10% -- 1 (vs enraged Vegeta)

[SSJG Goku]
-- 100% - 7
-- 80% -- 5.6 (80% of Beerus' 70%)

[Base Goku]
- BoG -- 0.12*
- RoF -- 0.15**
-- SSJ -- 6
-- SSJB - 7.5***

*with Goku's multiplier ranging from 1 to before 50, in order to cover some feats.
**tapping onto the remainder of SSJG on his own, his base power has increased.
***surpassing the power of a SSJG at 100% through the SSJ ritual, hence the blue.