"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

The only way to make sense of the powers is the two base theory, even for the manga, at this point.

[TheMikado]

I'm surprised to hear that Trunks is stronger than Goku in the same forms. But on the other hand, this is the same guy who got over 50x stronger by training alone in 3 months back then, so i guess i'll let this one slide.

I forgot that in 1 year these chatacters almost double their strength, unlock new form etc. I wonder why now people don't believe someone can master a form in 10 years.

Right exactly, the SSJ3 multiplier is only a 4x multiplier.
Trunks probably just figured out a FSSJ version and SSJ3 is really like the USSJ form of SSJ2, it even has some of the physical traits and draw backs so I could definitely see it being the improper way to power up past SSJ2

[TheMikado]

The only way to make sense of the powers is the two base theory, even for the manga, at this point.

It's already been proven in the manga with SSG taking the place of the "invisible 2nd base" in the anime.

[ekrolo2]

The only way to make sense of the powers is the two base theory, even for the manga, at this point.

It's already been proven in the manga with SSG taking the place of the "invisible 2nd base" in the anime.

Eh, I don't see Red God as another Base form, just another SS form. If the stamina issue with Blue wasn't a thing in the manga that would have some validity to it but Red God is only stronger than a 10'th of Vegeta's Blue power. Not all of it.

[Chiki]

The only way to make sense of the powers is the two base theory, even for the manga, at this point.

It's already been proven in the manga with SSG taking the place of the "invisible 2nd base" in the anime.

Eh, I don't see Red God as another Base form, just another SS form. If the stamina issue with Blue wasn't a thing in the manga that would have some validity to it but Red God is only stronger than a 10'th of Vegeta's Blue power. Not all of it.

SSG is by definition not an SS form since it can be combined with SS power to get SSB.

[ekrolo2]

It's already been proven in the manga with SSG taking the place of the "invisible 2nd base" in the anime.

Eh, I don't see Red God as another Base form, just another SS form. If the stamina issue with Blue wasn't a thing in the manga that would have some validity to it but Red God is only stronger than a 10'th of Vegeta's Blue power. Not all of it.

SSG is by definition not an SS form since it can be combined with SS power to get SSB.

Does that mean SS4 and Blue aren't forms either? Cause those depend on you combining two states to make a new one too.

It feels like Red only gets called a new "base form" because of Goku's hair not spiking up as it usually does.

[TheMikado]

The only way to make sense of the powers is the two base theory, even for the manga, at this point.

It's already been proven in the manga with SSG taking the place of the "invisible 2nd base" in the anime.

Eh, I don't see Red God as another Base form, just another SS form. If the stamina issue with Blue wasn't a thing in the manga that would have some validity to it but Red God is only stronger than a 10'th of Vegeta's Blue power. Not all of it.

It's been a classic misunderstanding of the theory.
The theory states that there should be a form which utilizes God Ki but does not utilize SSJ.

In the manga this is SSG. The only reason it was named "two base" at all isn't because it should be the case.
But because in the anime it was theorized that Toei messed up and where Goku should be SSG they made him look like base but with SSG level power. Hence the "two base" name.

Basically the name "two base" isn't about what it should be, it's about what is shown in the anime which many believe to be incorrect.

[Chiki]

Eh, I don't see Red God as another Base form, just another SS form. If the stamina issue with Blue wasn't a thing in the manga that would have some validity to it but Red God is only stronger than a 10'th of Vegeta's Blue power. Not all of it.

SSG is by definition not an SS form since it can be combined with SS power to get SSB.

Does that mean SS4 and Blue aren't forms either? Cause those depend on you combining two states to make a new one too.

It feels like Red only gets called a new "base form" because of Goku's hair not spiking up as it usually does.

You're confusing what I mean here.

SSG has no Super Saiyan power in it. A better analogy would be to the Oozaru form which is not a SS form and I'd call it a second base too.

SSG = godly Saiyan transformation
Oozaru = beast Saiyan transformation
SSB = SSG + SS
SS4 = Oozaru + SS

SSB and SS4 are SS forms because they have SS power but SSG does not.

[ekrolo2]

On the subject of Trunks' power, one we I can see his strength increase working, along with the two base theory, is that he trained with the Z-Sword but didn't break it like Gohan did. It was implied Gohan got a great deal more powerful just with the sword training so Trunks doing the same, on top of two transformations boosting him does create a reasonable scenario for his power up.

It's been a classic misunderstanding of the theory.
The theory states that there should be a form which utilizes God Ki but does not utilize SSJ.

In the manga this is SSG. The only reason it was named "two base" at all isn't because it should be the case.
But because in the anime it was theorized that Toei messed up and where Goku should be SSG they made him look like base but with SSG level power. Hence the "two base" name.

Basically the name "two base" isn't about what it should be, it's about what is shown in the anime which many believe to be incorrect.

Well, the theory is, at least, done better in the manga than the anime. SSG, if it really counts as another base form Blue builds off of, is an actual, visible change that shows you whether or not Goku is using God ki. The anime does nothing of the sort so his normal and God Ki base forms look exactly the same.

SSG is by definition not an SS form since it can be combined with SS power to get SSB.

Does that mean SS4 and Blue aren't forms either? Cause those depend on you combining two states to make a new one too.

It feels like Red only gets called a new "base form" because of Goku's hair not spiking up as it usually does.

You're confusing what I mean here.

SSG has no Super Saiyan power in it. A better analogy would be to the Oozaru form which is not a SS form and I'd call it a second base too.

SSG = godly Saiyan transformation
Oozaru = beast Saiyan transformation
SSB = SSG + SS
SS4 = Oozaru + SS

SSB and SS4 are SS forms because they have SS power but SSG does not.

How does it not have any SS power? You need to be an SS to even do the ritual, even fetus Pan emmitted an SS aura in both versions of the ritual to do it and Gohan, who has no reason to use SS as he still has Ultimate, still went into to give Goku the power up.

[Khin]

Right exactly, the SSJ3 multiplier is only a 4x multiplier.
Trunks probably just figured out a FSSJ version and SSJ3 is really like the USSJ form of SSJ2, it even has some of the physical traits and draw backs so I could definitely see it being the improper way to power up past SSJ2

You mean to say that Future Trunks achieved a mastered version of Super Saiyan 2 in 10 years but freaking Goku didn't in like 12 years+ ? If Super Saiyan 3 is like a Grade III version of Super Saiyan 2, then Goku would've realized it right away and masters the Super Saiyan 2 , just like how he immediately realized that SSj is a better from than Grade III back then.

Plus, what's with all this FPSSj talks ? It's not like Full Power Super Saiyan and regular Super Saiyan doesn't have the same 50x boost.

[Grimlock]

But because in the anime it was theorized that Toei messed up and where Goku should be SSG they made him look like base but with SSG level power. Hence the "two base" name.

I think you're talking about "Saiyan beyond God" actually, which makes the base form having access to Super Saiyan God's power. Where does that "two base" name come from?

[Chiki]

How does it not have any SS power? You need to be an SS to even do the ritual, even fetus Pan emmitted an SS aura in both versions of the ritual to do it and Gohan, who has no reason to use SS as he still has Ultimate, still went into to give Goku the power up.

You don't need to be an SS to do the ritual since it was done in the past and there were no Super Saiyans back then. Lol

Also just because you need to be an SS for the ritual doesn't mean the power itself that is unlocked as a result is SS power. That is a classic logical fallacy. It's like saying, you need 6 eggs to unlock this chest full of gold, but that doesn't mean the gold itself is made of eggs.

The reason it doesn't have any SS power is simply because it can be combined with SS power to get SSB. Otherwise why wasn't Goku an SSB instead of an SSG?

[TheMikado]

I think we are retroactively trying to justify the name "two base". It was only ever conceived because in the anime seems to make the bases look exactly the same. SSG is definitely a tranformation. Don't focus on the name just when concept which is we should know without guessing whether Goku is using God Ki or not.

[TheMikado]

But because in the anime it was theorized that Toei messed up and where Goku should be SSG they made him look like base but with SSG level power. Hence the "two base" name.

I think you're talking about "Saiyan beyond God" actually, which makes the base form having access to Super Saiyan God's power. Where does that "two base" name come from?

This is correct, the two basers believe that form can be switched on and off like a light switch it just like SSJ independently of SSJ.

[ekrolo2]

How does it not have any SS power? You need to be an SS to even do the ritual, even fetus Pan emmitted an SS aura in both versions of the ritual to do it and Gohan, who has no reason to use SS as he still has Ultimate, still went into to give Goku the power up.

You don't need to be an SS to do the ritual since it was done in the past and there were no Super Saiyans back then. Lol

Also just because you need to be an SS for the ritual doesn't mean the power itself that is unlocked as a result is SS power. That is a classic logical fallacy. It's like saying, you need 6 eggs to unlock this chest full of gold, but that doesn't mean the gold itself is made of eggs.

The reason it doesn't have any SS power is simply because it can be combined with SS power to get SSB. Otherwise why wasn't Goku an SSB instead of an SSG?

Which is a movie detail that was excluded from the manga and the anime, making its validity to the two re-tellings highly questionable.

As for him using it versus Blue, for Hit, he wanted to keep Blue as a last minute surprise to see what the peak of Hit's power was and to lull him into a false sense of security before beating him. With Trunks? It would be overkill. Like using Super Saiyan to beat the Ginyu Force.

[Grimlock]

This is correct, the two basers believe that form can be switched on and off like a light switch it just like SSJ independently of SSJ.

Well, then I think you guys should start using Saiyan beyond God, because that's the name that has been used officially. And yeah, since the power of Super Saiyan God can be turned on and off while in Super Saiyan (generating Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when turned on), taking that concept to base form is reasonable as far as I can see/understand.

[TheMikado]

This is correct, the two basers believe that form can be switched on and off like a light switch it just like SSJ independently of SSJ.

Well, then I think you guys should start using Saiyan beyond God, because that's the name that has been used officially. And yeah, since the power of Super Saiyan God can be turned on and off while in Super Saiyan (generating Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when turned on), taking that concept to base form is reasonable as far as I can see/understand.

The name shouldn't matter if you understand the concept. The problem is people look at the name, draw their own conclusions without understanding etc. the name "two base" was specifically used because in the anime he looks exactly the same God Ki on or off. Hence the "two base" name. But yes it's the theory that Saiyan beyond God can be turned on or off. One basers believe that that form is permanent and cannot be turned off, hence one base. This is supported by God Ki being insensible and Goku can be sensed as Saiyan beyond God.

[ssj_duelist]

So people are to believe Trunks is now magically as strong as ss3 Goku? Not just ss3 Goku but ss3 Goku who has God Ki. The same Goku, who in his base form, was able to fight on par with Frieza, who in his first form 1 shot Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan. There is not enough evidence for this 'Saiyan beyond God' form to exist, although it does solve many issues, it involves too much head canon right now.

Yeah BS unless we are to believe ss2 and 3 Goku are purely cosmetic now and don't have any strength difference from regular Super Saiyan.

The anime shows Trunks struggling with Dabura, which puts anime Black (right now) around at least Fat Buu level (possibly), whereas manga black is far stronger than Res F final form Frieza. HUGE difference.

I could get behind the Kaioshin/Gods of Destruction link if they explained how old kai died in Trunks' timeline, but Toyotaro's power scaling and writing are incredibly poor. Between this Trunks' thing and the whole SSG Goku and SSB wastes too much energy/Hit being much weaker in the manga, I can't take the manga as canon at all.

[TheMikado]

So people are to believe Trunks is now magically as strong as ss3 Goku? Not just ss3 Goku but ss3 Goku who has God Ki. The same Goku, who in his base form, was able to fight on par with Frieza, who in his first form 1 shot Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan.

Yeah fucking BS unless we are to believe ss2 and 3 Goku are purely cosmetic now and don't have any strength difference from regular Super Saiyan.

The anime shows Trunks struggling with Dabura, which puts anime Black (right now) around at least Fat Buu level (possibly), whereas manga black is far stronger than Res F final form Frieza. HUGE difference.

I could get behind the Kaioshin/Gods of Destruction link if they explained how old kai died in Trunks' timeline, but Toyotaro's power scaling and writing are incredibly poor. Between this Trunks' thing and the whole SSG Goku and SSB wastes too much energy/Hit being much weaker in the manga, I can't take the manga as canon at all.

So have you actually been reading the manga or are you just spouting off assumptions because the manga has stated that base Goku in it is not much stronger than the Buu/BoG Base Goku.

[Khin]

So people are to believe Trunks is now magically as strong as ss3 Goku? Not just ss3 Goku but ss3 Goku who has God Ki. The same Goku, who in his base form, was able to fight on par with Frieza, who in his first form 1 shot Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan.

Since when did Base Goku fought Freeza ? The manga skipped the whole RoF Arc.