Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Why is it still a thing?

The manga shows SSG is still around and accessible at will. Basically in the manga there is a form which shows a form which uses God Ki but not SSB while in the anime this form is absent.

Basically everyone needs to acknowledge that:
1) This form exists in the Manga
2) This form does NOT exist in the Anime

I think you can debate whether it should exist or not in either media, but trying to state that one actual is in the other is incorrect. Two different continuities, two different power scales, two different base forms.

[Bullza]

The manga shows SSG is still around and accessible at will.

I don't see what this has to do with anything though. If Goku used SSJG form to fight the same battles that in the anime he used his base form to fight with then I'd understand but he doesn't. In the anime and the manga Base Goku fights the same battles, with the same results in pretty much the same way.

So Goku used Super Saiyan God when he fought Hit, why does that mean that Base Goku is at regular levels? In the Battle of Gods movie you had a much more powerful Base Goku who could still turn into SSJG just the same.

[Chiki]

Basically everyone needs to acknowledge that:
1) This form exists in the Manga
2) This form does NOT exist in the Anime

Everyone acknowledges that. I don't understand why you can't admit it's possible that the anime has SBG.

===

The manga having the two base theory can be proven with basic, simple logic that cannot be contradicted.

A Saiyan's Base = a non-Super Saiyan form

SSG isn't a Super Saiyan form since SSB = SSG + SS, obviously.

Manga Goku has two non-Super Saiyan forms: Base and SSG. There! Proven. It was really simple and easy.

[Bullza]

That's not what the Two Base theory is though....that's Base Goku and Super Saiyan God Goku.

Where's all this stuff about Base Goku in the manga being at regular levels? In the manga there's a hugely powerful Base Goku who can also turn into Super Saiyan God, exactly the same as what happened in the Battle of Gods movie.

Why is it being made more complicated than that?

[TheMikado]

Basically everyone needs to acknowledge that:
1) This form exists in the Manga
2) This form does NOT exist in the Anime

Everyone acknowledges that. I don't understand why you can't admit it's possible that the anime has SBG.

===

The manga having the two base theory can be proven with basic, simple logic that cannot be contradicted.

A Saiyan's Base = a non-Super Saiyan form

SSG isn't a Super Saiyan form since SSB = SSG + SS, obviously.

Manga Goku has two non-Super Saiyan forms: Base and SSG. There! Proven. It was really simple and easy.

Because it's NOT in the anime at this point. Sure it's possible, but it's equally possible that Tien and Yamcha learned the kaioken technique as well.

[TheMikado]

That's not what the Two Base theory is though....that's Base Goku and Super Saiyan God Goku.

Where's all this stuff about Base Goku in the manga being at regular levels? In the manga there's a hugely powerful Base Goku who can also turn into Super Saiyan God, exactly the same as what happened in the Battle of Gods movie.

Why is it being made more complicated than that?

Well no, technically there's nothing in the Manga which implies that their bases are much stronger than Buu saga and certainly not 400-500 stronger in base. Basically there is nothing in the manga like the SSJ3 Gotenks fight.

[Chiki]

That's not what the Two Base theory is though....that's Base Goku and Super Saiyan God Goku.

Where's all this stuff about Base Goku in the manga being at regular levels? In the manga there's a hugely powerful Base Goku who can also turn into Super Saiyan God, exactly the same as what happened in the Battle of Gods movie.

Why is it being made more complicated than that?

I've chosen to redefine the two base theory. It's that simple. You can't do anything about it lol.

[Lionel]

Basically everyone needs to acknowledge that:
1) This form exists in the Manga
2) This form does NOT exist in the Anime

Everyone acknowledges that. I don't understand why you can't admit it's possible that the anime has SBG.

===

The manga having the two base theory can be proven with basic, simple logic that cannot be contradicted.

A Saiyan's Base = a non-Super Saiyan form

SSG isn't a Super Saiyan form since SSB = SSG + SS, obviously.

Manga Goku has two non-Super Saiyan forms: Base and SSG. There! Proven. It was really simple and easy.

Because it's NOT in the anime at this point. Sure it's possible, but it's equally possible that Tien and Yamcha learned the kaioken technique as well.

God Ki has been shown to be retainable even in normal Base and Super Saiyan. Also, please don't tease about that. You know a lot of us wish that the Kaioken had actually been passed down to the non-Saiyans for use in the later arcs.

[Bullza]

Well no, technically there's nothing in the Manga which implies that their bases are much stronger than Buu saga and certainly not 400-500 stronger in base. Basically there is nothing in the manga like the SSJ3 Gotenks fight.

But they have the exact same results against the same opponents as they do in the anime though.

Goku fights against Frost in his third form. They comment about Frost winning but it turns out that Goku wasn't really trying.

Vegeta has to transform to Super Saiyan against a weakened Frost.

Vegeta has to transform against Magetta.

Vegeta and Cabba have an equal fight as said by Vegeta.

Goku fights against Hit and is able to land a hit on him and cut him but still has to transform further.

All of that is present in both the anime and manga. If they're shown to be much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in the anime and they had certain fights play out in certain ways during the tournament and then in the manga they have the exact same results as in the anime....then why are they at regular levels in the manga?

[Chiki]

Basically everyone needs to acknowledge that:
1) This form exists in the Manga
2) This form does NOT exist in the Anime

Everyone acknowledges that. I don't understand why you can't admit it's possible that the anime has SBG.

===

The manga having the two base theory can be proven with basic, simple logic that cannot be contradicted.

A Saiyan's Base = a non-Super Saiyan form

SSG isn't a Super Saiyan form since SSB = SSG + SS, obviously.

Manga Goku has two non-Super Saiyan forms: Base and SSG. There! Proven. It was really simple and easy.

Because it's NOT in the anime at this point. Sure it's possible, but it's equally possible that Tien and Yamcha learned the kaioken technique as well.

This is a really bad argument since the two base theory would allow us to explain everything weird about power levels in the Super anime, which in science and logic we call this a good thing. It's a good thing if a theory solves problems.

Tien and Yamcha having Kaioken solves no problems.

[TheMikado]

All of that is present in both the anime and manga. If they're shown to be much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in the anime and they had certain fights play out in certain ways during the tournament and then in the manga they have the exact same results as in the anime....then why are they at regular levels in the manga?

This is a really bad argument since the two base theory would allow us to explain everything weird about power levels in the Super anime, which in science and logic we call this a good thing. It's a good thing if a theory solves problems.

I can't believe I have to defend this from both sides.. In the anime we are shown the Copy Vegeta saga and various other supporting items. These support the base "normal" as being above SSJ3 level. However in the promotional manga continuity, these events are not shown. Furthermore in the manga, Goku is not shown to fight anyone in his base which has been independently confirmed to be "God" level. In fact its arguable that Hit is weaker than a SSB in the manga while 10x stronger than SSB in the anime. We already have different forms, and different interpretations of those forms, so why not different power levels?

In the manga SSB weakens substantially after multiple uses due to Ki drain.
In the anime SSB can be strengtned with Kaioken due to perfect Ki control...

In the anime SSG is a one time form.
In the manga SSG can be used at will.

In the anime, SSB is shown to be the successor to SSJ in terms of power levels
In the manga, SSG is shown to be above the SSJ levels in terms of power.

In the anime, SSJ Goku post Beerus is equal, if not greater than SSG at this point.
In the manga, SSJ Goku post Beerus is still below SSG.

My point stands. You cannot say what is true for one media is true for the other, and as it stands now the manga and anime have two VERY different interpretations of the same story, the power levels, the forms, and what they can do. As such I believe two bases (God form non-SSJ) is true for the manga, but not true for the anime because that is what has been explicitly shown in both.

[Chiki]

We already have different forms, and different interpretations of those forms, so why not different power levels?

Occam's razor. When we compare two theories which have the same result, we should prefer the theory which is simpler. Unless otherwise stated, Occam's razor says we ought to say that they are the exact same in every way, including power levels.

It's logically important for the anime and manga to have the same power levels. It makes for a better theory. I find it hard to believe that Toei and Toyotaro would have such different interpretations of Toriyama's outline. How the heck is Cabba SSG level in the anime and Cell arc level in the manga? Sure it's possible, but it's stupid. Occam's razor is a guide, not a necessity.

The one base theory is weak since it posits a great number of differences in power levels between the anime and manga. For example, Cabba Magetta and Frost are all god level in the anime, but not in the manga. Piccolo is much stronger in the anime than in the manga. Who knows how the fuck strong Trunks is. And so on. The one base theory creates a huge mess of power levels in the anime (just look at how much trouble Bullza is having at deciding power levels, whether he likes to admit it or not he changes his mind on power levels every episode. His views are a huge mess). There are no issues with the two base theory because it predicts everything that has happened so far. It is a classically strong theory since a good theory should have good predictive power, which the two base theory does.

Hit is a special case that Occam's razor no longer applies to since it was stated/shown in an obvious manner. Hit is the only character who has a different power level between the anime and the manga. And maybe Beerus and Whis and all the other gods too, because of Kaioken x10.

Although it's fairly obvious that Kaioken x10 is a Toei addition and is as canon as Yamcha defeating Olibu with ease, since it's not in the manga. If it were in Toriyama's outline it would have been in the manga. I'd just ignore Kaioken x10 in all power level discussions.

[Bullza]

These support the base "normal" as being above SSJ3 level. However in the promotional manga continuity, these events are not shown.

Why does it need to be? The manga is adapting Toriyama's plot outline which is being written as a follow up to what happened in Resurrection F.

Why is it being over complicated to the extent to suggest that events all played out differently and the same characters have the same fights but their all on a lower level?

For example, Cabba Magetta and Frost are all god level in the anime, but not in the manga.

That's merely an assumption.

Piccolo is much stronger in the anime than in the manga.

No he isn't. In both the anime and manga Goku tells him he stands no chance against Frost and Piccolo complains about fighting Frost in his final form. The only difference is that in the anime Piccolo used a SBC that could have beaten him whereas in the manga he did not.

just look at how much trouble Bullza is having at deciding power levels, whether he likes to admit it or not he changes his mind on power levels every episode. His views are a huge mess

What trouble? The more episodes that come out the more a clearer picture is made. A recent episode established that the multipliers are still in place which was not clear before.

Whether it's easy or not I'm just going by what the show actually shows and says. The two base theory however ignores this to instead focus on a purely fan made convenient excuse that allows fans to place power levels where they want them.

For obvious reasons actual evidence trumps fanmade speculation.

If it were in Toriyama's outline it would have been in the manga. I'd just ignore Kaioken x10 in all power level discussions.

If Super Saiyan God was in the outline then it would have been in the anime. That logic doesn't fly.

[TheMikado]

^ I think you two are just proving my point. You're trying to take one continuity and apply it to another. It's the same problem you have when you try to apply the 6 10 15 scale to the anime. Instead of accepting things for what they are within its own countiuity you're applying it to other media which we've already been to be the completely wrong attitude to take with this series.

[Chiki]

^ I think you two are just proving my point. You're trying to take one continuity and apply it to another. It's the same problem you have when you try to apply the 6 10 15 scale to the anime. Instead of accepting things for what they are within its own countiuity you're applying it to other media which we've already been to be the completely wrong attitude to take with this series.

I'm not taking a continuity and applying it to another. I just don't think the anime is canon. It's filled with Toei-style filler like Kaioken x10 that is not in the manga and therefore, not in Toriyama's outline.

[Bullza]

You're trying to take one continuity and apply it to another. It's the same problem you have when you try to apply the 6 10 15 scale to the anime.

Which admittedly is probably the wrong thing to do. There are obviously differences between the two, the only real significant one being the Goku vs Hit fight but I just can't believe that in one version the characters are Buu level and in the other they're God level.

It just completely contradicts the story Toriyama came up with even though at the same time the manga is adapting an outline that follows the movie.

Realistically if Toyotaro was asked who would win in a fight between Magetta from the anime and Magetta from the manga would he be more likely to say

A) Magetta from the anime would win because he's hundreds of times stronger than his manga counterpart.

B) It'd be a draw because they're just the same.

He'd say B.

[TheMikado]

^ in the above scenario who wins, SSJ Goku or SSG and by how much?

[Bullza]

^ in the above scenario who wins, SSJ Goku or SSG and by how much?

What do you mean exactly?

[TheMikado]

^ in the above scenario who wins, SSJ Goku or SSG and by how much?

What do you mean exactly?

How do those two forms compare in the anime vs the manga?

[Bullza]

It's hard to say because the Hit fight played out so differently that there's not much of a comparison to be made. In the anime SSJ Goku is weaker than Hit. In the manga SSJG Goku is weaker than full power Hit but stronger than suppressed Hit but that doesn't help because the suppressed version doesn't appear in the anime.

I suppose it would depend on whether or not training can increase the power of Goku's SSJG power just like all the other forms or not. Was SSJG Goku stronger against Hit than he was against Beerus?

If SSJG can't be made stronger then SSJG (manga) = SSJ (anime)

If SSJG can be made stronger then SSJG (manga) > SSJ (anime)

Personally I don't see why it couldn't become stronger. It was getting stronger as the fight went on in the anime after all.