Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Blackstripe]

How does that support that Vegetto is stronger than rage Vegeta though?

Yeah, I'm a bit lost there, too.

[LightBing]

How does that support that Vegetto is stronger than rage Vegeta though?

I said my supports my idea.
Because, when Beerus said Vegeta was more fun to fight than Goku (meaning stronger);coupled with the quote that Vegetto might not be enough. People assumed, Beerus used that level of power to defeat Goku. Meaning Vegeta>Vegetto>Goku. I assume that Goku predicted a higher level of strength from Beerus, than that actually used to put him down. Not forcefully making Vegeta stronger than Vegetto.
That quote gives an example of Goku predicting more than meets the eye, it shows an example of Goku doing what I said he's done;very recently. It doesn't prove anything, but reinforces the possibility of my idea.

[ekrolo2]

For the sake of not giving myself a headache over the power increase too much, I'll agree with you that Rageta can't be superior to SSJ Vegetto. At the very, very highest he's maybe equal to base Vegetto.

[Doctor.]

For the sake of not giving myself a headache over the power increase too much, I'll agree with you that Rageta can't be superior to SSJ Vegetto. At the very, very highest he's maybe equal to base Vegetto.

The thing is that it's mathematically impossible.

Beerus: 100
-- 10%: 10

Vegeta: 0.5 (this is incredibly low considering Beerus had to use 10% of his power to hold Vegeta off)

Vegetto: 0.5
-- SS: 25
-- SS2: 50
-- SS3: 200

Unless, of course, you don't believe Vegetto can go beyond Super Saiyan, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

[Khin]

I really dont have any problem about Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than Super Vegetto.I just have it like this and everything works fine.

Beerus: 10
-Initial: 0.2
----10%: 1

Vegeta: 0.25
-Galick Gun: 0.5

Vegetto: 0.004
------SSJ: 0.20
-----SSJ2: 0.40
-----SSJ3: 1.6

[ekrolo2]

For the sake of not giving myself a headache over the power increase too much, I'll agree with you that Rageta can't be superior to SSJ Vegetto. At the very, very highest he's maybe equal to base Vegetto.

The thing is that it's mathematically impossible.

Beerus: 100
-- 10%: 10

Vegeta: 0.5 (this is incredibly low considering Beerus had to use 10% of his power to hold Vegeta off)

Vegetto: 0.5
-- SS: 25
-- SS2: 50
-- SS3: 200

Unless, of course, you don't believe Vegetto can go beyond Super Saiyan, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

Oh I totally believe Vegetto can use them, hell, him knowing SSJ2 and 3 makes more sense than Gotenks. At least Vegetto is comprised of people who individually have those forms. But your math does ring true just how broken the increase really is.

This is how I've organized things in my head as nonsensical as it may seem to some: in Super, the Gods are nowhere near as strong as originally thought meaning Vegetto & GT level characters can probably rip them to shreds without going into some of the stronger guys like Bebi, Super 17, SSJ4s, Shadow Dragons.... In the movies, the Gods ARE in-fact as vastly stronger as we thought and could finger flick Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto out of existence with only SSJ4 Gogeta and mmmmaaaayyybbbeeee Omega being able to put up some kind of fight.

Since Toriyama is probably going to ignore Supers stuff and just do U6 as if it were another movie sequel except longer, I think we'll be seeing the Gods go back to their movie levels eventually.

[LightBing]

For the sake of not giving myself a headache over the power increase too much, I'll agree with you that Rageta can't be superior to SSJ Vegetto. At the very, very highest he's maybe equal to base Vegetto.

The thing is that it's mathematically impossible.

Beerus: 100
-- 10%: 10

Vegeta: 0.5 (this is incredibly low considering Beerus had to use 10% of his power to hold Vegeta off)

Vegetto: 0.5
-- SS: 25
-- SS2: 50
-- SS3: 200

Unless, of course, you don't believe Vegetto can go beyond Super Saiyan, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

Only if you apply the guides multipliers. I have the fusions with much weaker multipliers. Like how Bluper Saiyan is a regular SSJ but the multiplier is tiny. My explanation: fusion bring forth some power of the Super Saiyan transformations and gives it to base.

[Bullza]

I'd put Rageta above base Vegito but not necessarily above Super Vegito. I'd have at something like this.

Beerus - 10
Goku - 6
SSJ3 Vegito - 4
SSJ2 Vegito - 1
Super Vegito - 0.5
Vegeta - 0.4

[ZombieVito]

Might as well post my numbers too:

Beerus: 10
Goku: 6
SSJ3 Vegito: 3.6
SSJ2 Vegito: 0.90
Vegeta: 0.60
Super Vegito: 0.45

[Blackstripe]

Alright, if we're doing that...

Rageta - 0.2
Galick Gun - 0.5
Super Vegetto - 0.3
SSJ2 Vegetto - 0.6
SSJ3 Vegetto - 2.4

But I honestly think Rageta is stronger than Super Vegetto because he tapped into some latent Godly power.

[Bullza]

But I honestly think Rageta is stronger than Super Vegetto because he tapped into some latent Godly power.

I don't think it would work like that. A Saiyan could probably tap into latent Super Saiyan power but not Godly power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But I honestly think Rageta is stronger than Super Vegetto because he tapped into some latent Godly power.

I don't think it would work like that. A Saiyan could probably tap into latent Super Saiyan power but not Godly power.

It would make sense though. Enraged SS2 Vegeta was apparently about 6-7 times weaker than SSG Goku, and to become a SSG, you need 6 Saiyans. See the connection?

[Blackstripe]

But I honestly think Rageta is stronger than Super Vegetto because he tapped into some latent Godly power.

I don't think it would work like that. A Saiyan could probably tap into latent Super Saiyan power but not Godly power.

It would make sense though. Enraged SS2 Vegeta was apparently about 6-7 times weaker than SSG Goku, and to become a SSG, you need 6 Saiyans. See the connection?

I hadn't even considered that angle. Nice point.

[Bullza]

I'm not seeing any connection. Rageta could have been a 10th as strong as SSJG Goku or less.

Every Saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan so it'd make sense to tap into some of it's latent power or in Vegeta's case to tap ino a greater amount of it but the God form is something you can't achieve on your own, it's not a domant power from within that you can tap into.

[Blackstripe]

I'm not seeing any connection. Rageta could have been a 10th as strong as SSJG Goku or less.

Every Saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan so it'd make sense to tap into some of it's latent power or in Vegeta's case to tap ino a greater amount of it but the God form is something you can't achieve on your own, it's not a domant power from within that you can tap into.

You can't truly achieve the form on your own, and Vegeta didn't.

However, the Super Saiyan God is made from the combined power of six Saiyans with righteous hearts...meaning the transformation took something from each of them that must have already been within them. Vegeta could have tapped into that part of himself because he had a righteous heart by that point, and it resulted in something amazing...but still greatly inferior to a true Super Saiyan God, which is the culmination of this power being imbued in one Saiyan by five others.

[ekrolo2]

Might as well throw my hat into the ring again, here's my numbers for the Super incarnation of these characters:

Rageta - 0.5
Super Vegetto - 0.8
Super Vegetto 2 - 1.6
Super Vegetto 3 - 6.4

Here's where the GT characters stack in comparison:

Kid Goku SSJ - 0.5
Kid Goku SSJ2 - 1
Kid Goku SSJ3 - 4
Goku SSJ4 - 10 (times 1000 base multiplier so SSJ3 times 2.5)
Vegeta SSJ4 - 10 (I know he's depicted as severely weaker than Goku but SSJ4 is described as a potential unlock so that probably compensated for the gap a lot)
Omega Shenron - 13
Gogeta SSJ4 - 25

Now, onto the movie versions!

Everyone besides SSJ4 Gogeta and maybe Omega f*cking dies instantly of the non Gods against movie Beerus, let alone movie Whis. Not much of a number scale I know but its pretty clear to me Super's nerfed the Gods something fierce.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not seeing any connection. Rageta could have been a 10th as strong as SSJG Goku or less.

We can get an idea about how strong Vegeta was. SSG Goku was as strong as 60% Beerus, which forced Beerus to use 70% of his power. Enraged SS2 Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10% of his power, so this means that the difference between 10% Beerus & Vegeta should be similar to 70% Beerus' & Goku's.

Every Saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan so it'd make sense to tap into some of it's latent power or in Vegeta's case to tap ino a greater amount of it but the God form is something you can't achieve on your own, it's not a domant power from within that you can tap into.

You can't truly achieve the form on your own, and Vegeta didn't.

However, the Super Saiyan God is made from the combined power of six Saiyans with righteous hearts...meaning the transformation took something from each of them that must have already been within them. Vegeta could have tapped into that part of himself because he had a righteous heart by that point, and it resulted in something amazing...but still greatly inferior to a true Super Saiyan God, which is the culmination of this power being imbued in one Saiyan by five others.

Couldn't have said it better.

Assuming that Vegeta tapped at his SSG dormant powers also explains how the hell he became stronger than SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, U. Gohan, and Super Vegetto as a Super Saiyan 2 while his base power is at the same level as Goku's, and it explains why he didn't get a rage boost in the past, when Cell killed Trunks.

[Bullza]

The Goku vs Beerus fight was a lot closer than what Rageta vs Beerus was. Especially during the cloud scene where they were practically even and Goku was able to hurt him a couple times throughout that fight.

Whereas against Vegeta, Beerus wasn't hurt and was acting pretty nonchalant about it all and probably only used 10% at the end to stop the Galick Gun.

There's no way SSJG Goku is as little as 7x more powerful than Rageta.

[Khin]

The Goku vs Beerus fight was a lot closer than what Rageta vs Beerus was. Especially during the cloud scene where they were practically even and Goku was able to hurt him a couple times throughout that fight.

Whereas against Vegeta, Beerus wasn't hurt and was acting pretty nonchalant about it all and probably only used 10% at the end to stop the Galick Gun.

There's no way SSJG Goku is as little as 7x more powerful than Rageta.

Exactly,i really dont get why some people put Rageta at 8% or even 10% at Beerus' full power,that would make his Galick Gun above Beerus at 10%,I just put him at 2.5% and the Galick Gun at 5%.

[Blackstripe]

The Goku vs Beerus fight was a lot closer than what Rageta vs Beerus was. Especially during the cloud scene where they were practically even and Goku was able to hurt him a couple times throughout that fight.

Whereas against Vegeta, Beerus wasn't hurt and was acting pretty nonchalant about it all and probably only used 10% at the end to stop the Galick Gun.

There's no way SSJG Goku is as little as 7x more powerful than Rageta.

Even if Vegeta isn't exactly seven times less powerful than SSG Gokuu, it still works just fine as an explanation, and is far better than any alternatives that have been proposed. Vegeta accessing the little bit of divine power within him makes sense, and I'm not sure why you're opposed to it.

Also, Vegeta in episode 11 seems to be vaguely aware of what's happening with the Gokuu vs Beerus fight, even though he didn't go with the others on the ship. Could he possibly sense their ki, even though he shouldn't be a God?