"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Khin]

So people are to believe Trunks is now magically as strong as ss3 Goku ?

That's how Super works, it does things like this without explaining them so fans try to explain them instead.

They may not be the best explanations but at least they're trying which is the complete opposite of what the "official writers" are doing.

It was literally stated in this very chapter that Trunks trained hard for the past ten years; that's why he's that strong.

[Kishido]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

[Chiki]

Which is a movie detail that was excluded from the manga and the anime, making its validity to the two re-tellings highly questionable.

As for him using it versus Blue, for Hit, he wanted to keep Blue as a last minute surprise to see what the peak of Hit's power was and to lull him into a false sense of security before beating him. With Trunks? It would be overkill. Like using Super Saiyan to beat the Ginyu Force.

Most people consider the movies canon since Toriyama wrote them both himself.

Anyway, it's a basic mathematical issue. You can prove that SSG doesn't have SS power since SSB = SSG + SS and if SSG already had SS power then it wouldn't need SS to turn into SSB. Simple

The movies are canon to the movie continuity and do not necessarily apply to either the anime nor the manga. Because they were written at different times and the author has since changed his mind about how events unfolded and what they were.

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true.

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Maybe SS3 is a fake SS transformation like USS.

[sintzu]

It was literally stated in this very chapter that Trunks trained hard for the past ten years; that's why he's that strong.

He trained harder than Goku did in the afterlife ? he got better training than Goku did from Whis ?

His Ssj2 being equal or stronger than Goku's Ssj3 means his base form is leagues above Goku's which could never be achieved through normal training.

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

The normal Ssj forms don't give extra power, they multiply the user's base form so in order for Trunks' Ssj2 to be stronger or on par with Goku's Ssj3 then Trunks' base would have to be A LOT stronger than Goku's which is impossible.

[Nejishiki]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

[TheMikado]

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true.

I don't think that's true, and even if it was would Toriyama be the only one who knows that now as far as what he's currently thinking? It doesn't even seem anyone could debate what should and shouldn't be in this "ultimate canon"

[Khin]

He trained harder than Goku did in the afterlife ? he got better training than Goku did from Whis ?

His Ssj2 being equal or stronger than Goku's Ssj3 means his base form is leagues above Goku's which could never be achieved through normal training.

There's a thing called potential. Trunks surpassed Future Gohan and became over 50x stronger in just 3 years back then, that says much about his potential. Goku didn't even became way stronger on his afterlife training, and possibly on his training with Whis too.

[Alruneia]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Maybe SS3 is a fake SS transformation like USS.

It's a long shot, but maybe SSJ3 is actually not the correct way to ascend? Goku just made the form up, after all, and Gotenks just copied him. Future Trunks, who's been in his own timeline and only seen SSJ2 until now, had to find his own way to ascend, and he ended up with FPSSJ2 instead, and his FPSSJ2 is as strong as or maybe even stronger than Goku's SSJ3. I don't know, but it's a possibility.

I'm really beginning to wonder if this might actually be the case. Goku kept pushing forward and got SSJ3 (which is actually ASSJ2 or USSJ2), while Trunks took the mastery approach instead and got FPSSJ2. It'd be a role reversal of what happened in the Cell arc.

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

The manga did show Trunks' PTSD-punch. He just had a senzu, so he wasn't weakened, and it was a lash at Goku caused by pure instinct, so he wasn't... shouldn't be holding back. Still, Goku easily caught the attack. Therefore, Trunks can't be stronger than Goku in base, so the only way for his SSJ2 to be as good as Goku's SSJ3 is for there to be some advanced SSJ2 form involved. At least that's how I see it.

[Chiki]

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true.

I don't think that's true, and even if it was would Toriyama be the only one who knows that now as far as what he's currently thinking? It doesn't even seem anyone could debate what should and shouldn't be in this "ultimate canon"

Well he wrote the outlines so why not?

I think it's possible to debate. Did you learn set theory in school? It's a handy tool to explain this. Let set A be the set of facts which are true in the anime, B is the set of facts true in the movies (no longer use this set for U6 and Black arcs) and C is the set of facts true in the manga. Take their intersection and you get the set of facts in the ultimate canon.

How does this work? We know as a result that Kaioken x10 is non canon, that the Copy Vegeta filler and the Tagoma filler is non-canon, which is nice.

[SansrivaaL]

I wonder how Toyo plans on doing the Goku V Black bit, I mean he made Goku's SSJ3 close to power with Trunks' SSJ2 and as we all saw Black trolled the hell out of Trunks' SSJ2 and in serious situations to top that.
This makes me think he may make Goku go SSJG against Black.

[Kishido]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

No.. But even with training it shouldn't be anywhere close to Goku... Goku trained all the time as well and under people as Whis.

So even with no training with SSJ 2 alone the multiplier would be enough to be far above the likes as Trunks

[Nejishiki]

The manga did show Trunks' PTSD-punch. He just had a senzu, so he wasn't weakened, and it was a lash at Goku caused by pure instinct, so he wasn't... shouldn't be holding back. Still, Goku easily caught the attack. Therefore, Trunks can't be stronger than Goku in base, so the only way for his SSJ2 to be as good as Goku's SSJ3 is for there to be some advanced SSJ2 form involved. At least that's how I see it.

Ah, that wasn't exactly what I was going for. To my understanding, they began their match as they did ascending to "Super Saiyan 2" because that's the threshold of power they were last familiar with thanks to Gohan. Goku later decides to show Future Trunks the next step by pushing himself into "Super Saiyan 3" (In other words, a power beyond Gohan during the Cell Games, a world that Goku assumes Future Trunks is unaware of). Recognizing that his ki rose, Future Trunks powers up himself, as he never intended to kill, only spar. Goku has forced his hand and there is precedence for fighters to never go at it full-throttle at all times, only sparingly. We see this very example when Goku prematurely ends the match with Super Saiyan God. We also see Future Trunks do this himself with his first meeting with Goku as he initially held back against him. I believe Future Trunks also states that he pushed past the ceiling of what he witnessed from the Cell Games? This relates to Super Saiyan Grade IV in the Cell arc as Goku and Gohan never used their calm forms for battle. They powered up beyond their natural states. Future Trunks has not been depicted as a, "calm Super Saiyan 2", so I find it dangerous that many of us are assuming he mastered Super Saiyan 2 as he did regular Super Saiyan. Essentially, my long-winded explanation is asserting that the two can fluctuate their strength at will, and Future Trunks just so happened to train his Super Saiyan 2 to be more effective just as Goku trained his Super Saiyan 1 form to be more effective at Champa's tournament. There shouldn't be a "set strength" to limit the fighters.

[LightBing]

What if Super Saiyan forms only have a base multiplier and the rest is mastery. Meaning a SSJ can be stronger than a SSJ3 and a SSJ can be weaker than some at Base From (SSJ Future Kid Trunks vs Base Future Gohan).
You guys know that there wasn't ever any rules given to the SSJ forms in the manga, only in guides...

So in the Future Trunks achieves SSJ2 and keeps improving it, instead of the old Base training to benefit the multiplier. Like the mastery of SSJ before the Cell Games, which resulted in massive increases. The concept isn't new, in fact it's almost an exact copy of the previous SSJ problems. Just replace Super Saiyan Grade 2 with Super Saiyan 3 as the flawed transformation.

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

No.. But even with training it shouldn't be anywhere close to Goku... Goku trained all the time as well and under people as Whis.

So even with no training with SSJ 2 alone the multiplier would be enough to be far above the likes as Trunks

If we don't give the guides multipliers, it can certainly work. 400x for SSJ3 isn't absolute. Besides, I assume Trunks is much stronger in Base, even if still weaker than present Saiyans. The difference is Goku and Vegeta trained Base and extensively SSJB, Trunks did the same thing just with SSJ2.

[Chiki]

Base Goku blocked an angry fully healed Base Trunks's punch in this chapter so Base Goku should be stronger.

The only possible explanation here is Full power SS2 tbh.

[dbzfan7]

and what is so cool about that more like lame to give him the same Piccolo and kami treatment.

to bad there is no saiyan saga Vegeta anymore or he would have token advantage of such major information.

Means he isn't entirely safe or unstoppable by even mortal standards. Mean tension doesn't have be utterly dead when he shows up on screen.

Good luck with that. Good luck finding the Kaioshin. Hell any Kaioshin would murder early Vegeta easily.

Except his weakness has already been established by adding characters stronger then him. this is just adding unnessary weaknesses that at nothing to the plot except to dumb down the Z characters and readers of the show. and I mean Super is missing on characters with the mentality of namek/ saiyan saga vegeta. or simply on characters that could think. with such information Vegeta would have definitly attacked elder kai during BOG to get rid of Beerus or champa. or simply Beerus should have been death in Buu saga when elder kai gave up his life in favor of Goku. this is like insulting stabilised past events.

There's only 3 people stronger than him. Omni King, Whis, and Vados. He has connections to all of them, and none are out to kill him. It's not at all an unnecessary weakness. It means he is not untouchable to practically everyone. It also means we don't have to have a bad guy stronger than him to have some form of tension. Otherwise his presence utterly ruins EVERYTHING.

Again, good luck with that Vegeta. Good luck not only trying to locate the Kaioshin realm, but finding a way there. None of which he can do.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

Woah there, who said that Trunks is a Super Saiyan 2 Grade 4/Full Power in the same way Goku was a Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power in the Cell Games? Super Saiyan Full Power is an upgraded Super Saiyan that removes most of the strain to the body & allows him to relax as if he is in his regular form. What Future Trunks does in his Super Saiyan 2 form is nothing like this, he is powering-up to a state with SS3 power without transforming, which is what Vegeta probably did by accident in BoG. People here call it "Super Saiyan 2 Full Power", but it has nothing to do with the real, official Super Saiyan Full Power. I think "Super Saiyan 2 Max Power" would be a more appropriate name, to avoid confusion.

[TheMikado]

The movies are canon to the movie continuity, ok, but there's still an "ultimate canon" continuity which is everything that Toriyama, the creator, thinks is true.

I don't think that's true, and even if it was would Toriyama be the only one who knows that now as far as what he's currently thinking? It doesn't even seem anyone could debate what should and shouldn't be in this "ultimate canon"

Well he wrote the outlines so why not?

I think it's possible to debate. Did you learn set theory in school? It's a handy tool to explain this. Let set A be the set of facts which are true in the anime, B is the set of facts true in the movies (no longer use this set for U6 and Black arcs) and C is the set of facts true in the manga. Take their intersection and you get the set of facts in the ultimate canon.

How does this work? We know as a result that Kaioken x10 is non canon, that the Copy Vegeta filler and the Tagoma filler is non-canon, which is nice.

Except that doesn't actually work in a real life chronological set. Example I have three random history books from various years and publishers. 2 still reference the Berlin Wall being up. According to this theory current unified Germany is historical fantasy.

My point is, in this case you the revised edition closest to the artist current thought process as what it should be now. You have to review evidence within its context not mix and match then in different environments. The context for the movies was created as a one off stand alone work. The context for the manga is specifically a serialized on going work. Not even the same animal at all. You cannot mix and match the content of the different media, we learned this in the previous series as well.

[Kishido]

What if Super Saiyan forms only have a base multiplier and the rest is mastery. Meaning a SSJ can be stronger than a SSJ3 and a SSJ can be weaker than some at Base From (SSJ Future Kid Trunks vs Base Future Gohan).
You guys know that there wasn't ever any rules given to the SSJ forms in the manga, only in guides...

So in the Future Trunks achieves SSJ2 and keeps improving it, instead of the old Base training to benefit the multiplier. Like the mastery of SSJ before the Cell Games, which resulted in massive increases. The concept isn't new, in fact it's almost an exact copy of the previous SSJ problems. Just replace Super Saiyan Grade 2 with Super Saiyan 3 as the flawed transformation.

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

No.. But even with training it shouldn't be anywhere close to Goku... Goku trained all the time as well and under people as Whis.

So even with no training with SSJ 2 alone the multiplier would be enough to be far above the likes as Trunks

If we don't give the guides multipliers, it can certainly work. 400x for SSJ3 isn't absolute. Besides, I assume Trunks is much stronger in Base, even if still weaker than present Saiyans. The difference is Goku and Vegeta trained Base and extensively SSJB, Trunks did the same thing just with SSJ2.

That's why I hate power levels discussions...

You know this actually makes no sense but still try to explain it.

Maybe Ultimate Gohan with mastering Unlocked Potential form will be >>>> SSGSS Goku just because his base is so much stronger.

Funny thing is Vegeta and Goku trained under Whis in their base forms... So even if they haven't mastered SS2 their base form is so much above Trunks that the normal mutliplier whould make them much stronger

[Nejishiki]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

Woah there, who said that Trunks is a Super Saiyan 2 Grade 4/Full Power in the same way Goku was a Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power in the Cell Games? Super Saiyan Full Power is an upgraded Super Saiyan that removes most of the strain to the body & allows him to relax as if he is in his regular form. What Future Trunks does in his Super Saiyan 2 form is nothing like this, he is powering-up to a state with SS3 power without transforming, which is what Vegeta probably did by accident in BoG. People here call it "Super Saiyan 2 Full Power", but it has nothing to do with the real, official Super Saiyan Full Power. I think "Super Saiyan 2 Max Power" would be a more appropriate name, to avoid confusion.

I don't believe that myself, which is why I was questioning those using the term.

[Chiki]

Can someone tell me why a Full Powered Super Saiyan 2 should be above or equal to SSJ 3 but a normal FPSSJ at the Cell saga was CLEARLY behind SSJ2

Did the scans claim Future Trunks used 'Super Saiyan 2 Grade IV'? If not, then it can be reconciled as training.

Woah there, who said that Trunks is a Super Saiyan 2 Grade 4/Full Power in the same way Goku was a Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power in the Cell Games? Super Saiyan Full Power is an upgraded Super Saiyan that removes most of the strain to the body & allows him to relax as if he is in his regular form. What Future Trunks does in his Super Saiyan 2 form is nothing like this, he is powering-up to a state with SS3 power without transforming, which is what Vegeta probably did by accident in BoG. People here call it "Super Saiyan 2 Full Power", but it has nothing to do with the real, official Super Saiyan Full Power. I think "Super Saiyan 2 Max Power" would be a more appropriate name, to avoid confusion.

But that's exactly what I mean and I think others mean. Why can't Trunks's SS2 form be like Goku's FPSS form? What's wrong with saying he mastered it like Goku mastered SS in the Cell arc? We're drawing an analogy between FPSS + USS and FPSS2 + SS3. USS is a crappy SS form that is weaker than FPSS or around the same strength. Maybe it's the same deal with FPSS2 and SS3.

It'd explain why Goku keeps using SS2 in the anime. I have a feeling that this implies we will be seeing SSB2 this arc. Why else would SS2 get so much attention?

Except that doesn't actually work in a real life chronological set. Example I have three random history books from various years and publishers. 2 still reference the Berlin Wall being up. According to this theory current unified Germany is historical fantasy.

My point is, in this case you the revised edition closest to the artist current thought process as what it should be now. You have to review evidence within its context not mix and match then in different environments. The context for the movies was created as a one off stand alone work. The context for the manga is specifically a serialized on going work. Not even the same animal at all. You cannot mix and match the content of the different media, we learned this in the previous series as well.

This analogy doesn't work since we are dealing with fictional worlds here and not in real life. The author of the fiction decides what is canon in fictional worlds. Not in real life. So what I said can apply to fiction but not to real life.