Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

But then how is Trunks suddenly SSJ God + Level?

From an in universe perspective it's unknown as we don't know what he did. He received advice from the Supreme Kai which allowed him to become stronger and beat Dabura. Plenty of time could have passed since then for Trunks to perhaps act on this advice to get even stronger.

From an out universe perspective it's just because the plot calls for it. If Tagoma can jump up like he did from beating beaten for a few months then why can't Trunks jump after 9 or 10 years. They did at least comment on how far he'd come on his own.

The series presents these new levels and then in no time at all everyone is that level. SSJ Goku and Frieza were the strongest beings in the universe by far at one point and later on little Goten and Trunks were on that level just from play fighting.

[TheMikado]

But then how is Trunks suddenly SSJ God + Level?

From an in universe perspective it's unknown as we don't know what he did. He received advice from the Supreme Kai which allowed him to become stronger and beat Dabura. Plenty of time could have passed since then for Trunks to perhaps act on this advice to get even stronger.

From an out universe perspective it's just because the plot calls for it. If Tagoma can jump up like he did from beating beaten for a few months then why can't Trunks jump after 9 or 10 years. They did at least comment on how far he'd come on his own.

The series presents these new levels and then in no time at all everyone is that level. SSJ Goku and Frieza were the strongest beings in the universe by far at one point and later on little Goten and Trunks were on that level just from play fighting.

The comparisons to Z and Super power scaling are not even in the same ball park........................

The jumps too literal years to accomplish and even then it was almost entirely through a medium of transformation/fusion/techniques, etc... Literally no where in Z does a character just show up and oh hey guys, my everyday normal self is hundreds of time stronger then when you last saw me, but it's ok because I trained really hard. Even the SSJ transformation unlocked by rage and special conditions was only a 50x boost. The largest that exists in all of Dragonball and thought to be the pinnical Transformation. Now we have SSG which makes their bases over 400x stronger pretty much overnight with little strain and effort and then Future Trunks shows up for whatever reason and is like oh cool, I'm almost as strong as you guys are!! And Piccolo is hanging out like, you guys can get 100s of thousands of times stronger than me in an instant but I'll tag along anyway and give this guy who is somewhere between SSG and 50x that a run for his money in our tournament battle to the point when if I hit him we will my super water pistol it will kill him??

[Bullza]

That's true but it was also true for Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. In Dragon Ball the non Goku characters would catch up in between any time skips with their power levels jumping up like by like a quarter or a half.

Then in the Saiyan Saga they trained with Kami and then their power levels jumped up about 10 fold. Then Piccolo trains for 3 years for the Androids and his power may have jumped about a 100 fold.

Now in Super Vegeta trains with Whis for half a year and his power jumps hundreds of times over. Trunks' power seems to have jumped hundreds of times over.

If people can accept that Yajirobe and Chiaotzu in the Saiyan Saga possibly got a few times stronger than Goku at the end of Dragon Ball after everything he did then I don't see why people can't accept that Trunks got as strong or stronger than SSJG.

[TheMikado]

Well no, Krillian and the gang had an increase of 5-7 fold and only with special training to fight the Saiyans.

Even on planet Namek Krillin maxed out at like 13,000 after almost two years. Piccolo has had two fusions to get to where he was.

Again the issue isn't the characters getting stronger it's that's there is a plot device to assist them to get to the next level. The plot devices are missing in Super. Everything from Vegeta's SSG skip to Trunks God level without special training.

It's like being told you need to be a Namek to create dragonballs, then you need to be an earthling, then jaco shows up with some dragonballs he randomly figured out how to create...

[Chiki]

Maybe Vegeta was holding back a lot but he beat Trunks easier than Black did

No he didn't, Black beat Trunks super easily in ep 51: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZRIgcc-YzY

When Mai died, Trunks had a rage boost in the first fight we saw because she died, so he performed better. Simple.

SSJ Goku and Frieza were the strongest beings in the universe by far at one point and later on little Goten and Trunks were on that level just from play fighting.

SSJ is just a multiplier. Just because they can turn SSJ doesn't mean they can beat Frieza. If Goten and Trunks have a power level of 500000, that would still put them well below Frieza.

From an in universe perspective it's unknown as we don't know what he did.

This makes your view literally worthless since any theory has to be able to back up its claims.

He received advice from the Supreme Kai which allowed him to become stronger and beat Dabura.

No, he received "instructions," and after Trunks says that we see him being able to block Dabura's spit. They gave him instructions on how to block his spit.

This is getting ridiculous, I don't know why you guys are so obsessed with making Trunks magically above SSG level.

[TheMikado]

Now that I think about it, how long was it between the time Trunks fought Dabura and when black showed up and then how long after that did he come to the past?

Like time line
Goes back to future?
Kills androids?
Kills Dabura?
Confronts Black?
Comes to future?

And where would his power level be at each stage?
When he fight Dabura he still needs to be weak enough for him to be a challenge.

[Chiki]

Now that I think about it, how long was it between the time Trunks fought Dabura and when black showed up and then how long after that did he come to the past?

Like time line
Goes back to future?
Kills androids?
Kills Dabura?
Confronts Black?
Comes to future?

And where would his power level be at each stage?
When he fight Dabura he still needs to be weak enough for him to be a challenge.

Unknown. It's perhaps a mistake, but Trunks is wearing the exact same outfit against Dabura that he wore when he arrived to the present, down to the hole in his pants.

Trunks was on Dabura's level, he said so himself: "the battle was extremely difficult."

There's also nothing wrong with Vegeta reaching SSG level on his own since he got special training in god ki from Whis.

[fadeddreams5]

There's also nothing wrong with Vegeta reaching SSG level on his own since he got special training in god ki from Whis.

How did he get god ki to begin with? You can just train to gain ki only gods have access to? It's so...dumb.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Oh right. Well within the same continuity he called SSJ2 Vegeta utterly pathetic and SSJ2 Trunks pretty good. That says a lot.

Beerus was kinda racists with the Saiyans in the anime & insulted Vegeta all the time, unlike in the movie, so it was hard to see a compliment there. And what are you suggesting, that BoG Movie SS2 Vegeta pre-rage boost is at god level then?

He made his comment the moment Goku began to overwhelm Zamasu and he shouldn't have been so surprised if he'd just been told. At this point he should be over twice as strong as the guy who gave Beerus a really good fight so I don't see the problem with the comment. Why he didn't use those forms against Beerus, well in the movie he didn't even realise he'd reverted until the last the very end.

But that would make SS2 Goku stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, Golden Freeza, Champa, and Beerus, with SS3 Goku stronger than Whis & probably Vados.

In the series? I dunno, they were just sticking with what the movie did and Toriyama said we probably wouldn't even see those forms again. Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ Goku is as strong as SSJG Goku about. It's what we've seen and nothing goes against it.

Ιt has also been stated & shown that base Goku is slightly weaker than SSG, yet you seem to ignore it.

Well that's what Whis said and it obviously had something to do with SSJB and most can't sense it yet Hit could. Unless it was just a mistake on the Toei side then I don't know. The humans couldn't sense SSJG and they couldn't sense SSJB either but only the SSJB appears to have anything to do with not leaking Ki so does that mean they can't be sensed for two different reasons? Is the stuff about them not leaking Ki out the goof as that's never been mentioned since. Who knows.

But we know! It is stated that mortals can't sense god ki, unless if they have reached a certain battle power, or if they are gods themselves.

That filler training scene you keep talking about has nothing to do with what we are talking about, and we don't even know what exactly that was. Was Whis teaching Goku & Vegeta how to achieve god ki in their mortal forms, or just how to come as close as possible to replicate a similar effect? We can't know for sure, but it doesn't matter in this discussion that we are having.

That's never been implied anywhere and certainly hasn't been said. We know Base Goku was much stronger than regular Super Saiyan levels after the Beerus fight, with the Frieza fight, during their training after the Frieza fight, with the Beerus in Monaka costume fight, with the SSJ3 Gotenks fight.

There's been nothing that implies that this isn't just a permanent strength boost that he had. And I don't mean things that are being misinterpreted like "but Piccolo seemed to be stronger than Base Goku going by the Frost fight" which was explained or anything like "but it doesn't make sense for Base Cabba to be God level".

There's nothing, I don't know what more they could do to kill this theory off. It's never been mentioned, not in interviews, the anime, the movies or the manga. It's not been implied in any significant way. There's no visual cue. We've been shown multiple times that they've definitely powered up. Why is it still a thing?

So, are we simply going to ignore the fact that Goku & Vegeta are powering-up with white auras as if they turn into Super Saiyans almost every time they display power higher than SS3, and they never use SS/2/3 in that state? Are we simply going to ignore the fact that base/SS Goku & Vegeta in the tournament were comparable to Piccolo & Majin Boo, and they get the regular x50/100/400 boosts in their SS/2/3 forms instead of insignificant boosts, as we were shown in BoG? Are we going to ignore the fact that everything says that base Goku & Vegeta with SSG powers are at the same level as SSG itself? Are we simply going to ignore the fact that base Goku is stronger than SS2 Trunks, while at the same time SS2 Goku rivals SS2 Trunks?

If Super Saiyan God was in the outline then it would have been in the anime. That logic doesn't fly.

How do you know? We know that Toei have been making changes to Toriyama's story draft, and they have removed SSG once before even though Toriyama had it in his version of the story (in the climax of Goku vs Beerus).

[TheMikado]

^ that's a good point, maybe Toei doesn't like the SSG form and decided to just make their base forms stronger in the anime.

[Chiki]

^ that's a good point, maybe Toei doesn't like the SSG form and decided to just make their base forms stronger in the anime.

But Toriyama removed SSG from RoF and even said he doesn't need to transform into SSG anymore in an interview. When he transformed the second time in BoG it was a one time thing.

My guess is, Toyotaro knew about the two base theory, and thought the anime was confusing about it, so he decided to include SSG to make it 100% clear that the two base theory is true.

===

Indeed, the two base theory was originally: Base and Saiyan Beyond God, same in appearance as Base but with SSG power.

But the new two base theory is Base and SSG or Base and SBG, both work fine. We just had to change our definition a bit to account for the manga. SSG and SBG are exactly the same in power level, and only different in appearance, and the two base theory is just a theory about power levels, so they're the same thing in the end.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Alright, I have a question: Goku was able to fight Freeza in his Base without Super Saiyan. In Super, the two were shown to be equal, and Goku later said he had show his real power if he wanted to win. The Narrator also says he surpassed Freeza with Super Saiyan Blue. Now since they were equal, wouldn't Goku have been able to win against Freeza if he transformed into a normal Super Saiyan there? Assuming the "two Base theory" is a thing and the fact that Goku was using his "super powerful" Base against Freeza, would Goku be unable to transform into anything outside of Super Saiyan Blue because of this?

I know the whole point was to show Goku's new transformation, but I'd like an in-universe opinion.

[TheMikado]

It's pretty tough because the anime implies SSJ greater than SSG while the manga specifically shows the opposite... The power levels and forms ARE NOT the same.

[Chiki]

How did he get god ki to begin with? You can just train to gain ki only gods have access to? It's so...dumb.

Whis implies that god ki is just ki without any kind of leakage, so it's not surprising that Whis's new training techniques would help Vegeta.

Alright, I have a question: Goku was able to fight Freeza in his Base without Super Saiyan. In Super, the two were shown to be equal, and Goku later said he had show his real power if he wanted to win. The Narrator also says he surpassed Freeza with Super Saiyan Blue. Now since they were equal, wouldn't Goku have been able to win against Freeza if he transformed into a normal Super Saiyan there? Assuming the "two Base theory" is a thing and the fact that Goku was using his "super powerful" Base against Freeza, would Goku be unable to transform into anything outside of Super Saiyan Blue because of this?

I know the whole point was to show Goku's new transformation, but I'd like an in-universe opinion.

It should be literally impossible to turn SS as an SBG/SSG since SSB = SSG + SS. So how can you turn normal SS with SSG power? RoF Goku doesn't do it, probably because Toriyama came up with SSB after BoG and decided he can no longer turn normal SS with SSG power.

The only reason Goku turns normal SS in BoG (and BoG Super) after getting SSG power is because Toriyama hadn't come up with SSB at the time.

[Bullza]

And what are you suggesting, that BoG Movie SS2 Vegeta pre-rage boost is at god level then?

That's mix and matching different things. In the movie Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as SSJG. In the anime Beerus is stronger than SSJB x10. Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta is a lot closer to Beerus'level than in the other.

But yeah in the series he calls Vegeta utterly pathetic and calls Trunks pretty good which if course implies Trunks superiority.

But that would make SS2 Goku stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, Golden Freeza, Champa, and Beerus, with SS3 Goku stronger than Whis & probably Vados.

Yeah but we know he isn't. If SSJ Goku can give Beerus a good fight then SSJ2 Goku can rival him. He doesn't have to be as strong as Beerus, might not have even been referring to Beerus. Gowasu's comment just put him at a level closer to that level rather than him being at Cell level.

Ιt has also been stated & shown that base Goku is slightly weaker than SSG, yet you seem to ignore it.

No I've said that too. Goku gets tens of times stronger when he transforms. His Base strenght should be 1/50th of his SSJ as it always was and his SSJ is just say roughly as strong as SSJG.

But with how strong SSJG is then Base Goku could be 1/50th of that and still be far above SSJ3 Gotenks.

We can't know for sure, but it doesn't matter in this discussion that we are having.

Then what's it got to do with anything? Trunks not being able to sense SSJB Vegeta while Base Goku can doesn't mean anything strenght wise if Goku can only sense it because he has that power.

So, are we simply going to ignore the fact that Goku & Vegeta are powering-up with white auras as if they turn into Super Saiyans almost every time they display power higher than SS3, and they never use SS/2/3 in that state?

That white aura has nothing to do with anything. I was watching clips from GT earlier where Goku has a white aura. Gohan had a white aura in Fusion Reborn. When they were fighting Whis in the movie the white aura would be there and then it wouldn't. In the anime there was no white aura when they fought Whis.

That doesn't mean anything at all.

Are we simply going to ignore the fact that base/SS Goku & Vegeta in the tournament were comparable to Piccolo & Majin Boo

They weren't. Neither could beat the tar out of SSJ3 Gotenks.

and they get the regular x50/100/400 boosts in their SS/2/3 forms instead of insignificant boosts, as we were shown in BoG?

That was the movie though. It's obviously different in the series but in neither version was there any mention of this two base stuff.

Are we going to ignore the fact that everything says that base Goku & Vegeta with SSG powers are at the same level as SSG itself?

Well nothing specifically said he was, there were some things that implied it was and some things that imply it wasnt. Unless Base Goku and Vegeta are that level in the series right now and the multipliers are still intact then I suppose their not.

Are we simply going to ignore the fact that base Goku is stronger than SS2 Trunks, while at the same time SS2 Goku rivals SS2 Trunks?

They've never said that Base Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks and we don't know if SSJ2 Goku rivals Trunks. From what we've seen Trunks is stronger than Base Goku or he wouldn't have performed as he did against the three people he fought but he's not as strong as SSJ2 Goku because he put up an even enough fight against Black while Trunks did not.

How do you know? We know that Toei have been making changes to Toriyama's story draft, and they have removed SSG once before even though Toriyama had it in his version of the story (in the climax of Goku vs Beerus).

Nobody knows that's why the logic doesn't fly. Both the anime and manga version of that fight starts the same and ends the same. The stuff in the middle is completely different, Toriyama may not have included either SSJG or Kaioken in the outline he could have just put "the two of them might and Goku is able to break through Hit's time skip".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It should be literally impossible to turn SS as an SBG/SSG since SSB = SSG + SS. So how can you turn normal SS with SSG power? RoF Goku doesn't do it, probably because Toriyama came up with SSB after BoG and decided he can no longer turn normal SS with SSG power.

The only reason Goku turns normal SS in BoG (and BoG Super) after getting SSG power is because Toriyama hadn't come up with SSB at the time.

I guess my questions comes from the fact that we later see Goku transform into a normal Super Saiyan against Frost and later transform into Super Saiyan Blue against Hit. Knowing this, we can see that he has no issue choosing which form to use.

Do you think Goku somehow found a way to differentiate his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue transformations by training in the rosat after ROF? Or did he not use Super Saiyan against Freeza because he just didn't want to?

[HeroR]

Alright, I have a question: Goku was able to fight Freeza in his Base without Super Saiyan. In Super, the two were shown to be equal, and Goku later said he had show his real power if he wanted to win. The Narrator also says he surpassed Freeza with Super Saiyan Blue. Now since they were equal, wouldn't Goku have been able to win against Freeza if he transformed into a normal Super Saiyan there? Assuming the "two Base theory" is a thing and the fact that Goku was using his "super powerful" Base against Freeza, would Goku be unable to transform into anything outside of Super Saiyan Blue because of this?

I know the whole point was to show Goku's new transformation, but I'd like an in-universe opinion.

Goku was still stronger than Freeza in his base form. Freeza only hit Goku by attacking his friends and even then Goku took no damage. Freeza is stronger compared to the movie, but he was still noticeably weaker than base form Goku.

[Chiki]

It should be literally impossible to turn SS as an SBG/SSG since SSB = SSG + SS. So how can you turn normal SS with SSG power? RoF Goku doesn't do it, probably because Toriyama came up with SSB after BoG and decided he can no longer turn normal SS with SSG power.

The only reason Goku turns normal SS in BoG (and BoG Super) after getting SSG power is because Toriyama hadn't come up with SSB at the time.

I guess my questions comes from the fact that we later see Goku transform into a normal Super Saiyan against Frost and later transform into Super Saiyan Blue against Hit. Knowing this, we can see that he has no issue choosing which form to use.

Do you think Goku somehow found a way to differentiate his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue transformations by training in the rosat after ROF? Or did he not use Super Saiyan against Freeza because he just didn't want to?

Obviously the two base theory explains this problem. If Base is just SSG without the appearance, then logic implies that Base-SSG + SS = SSB, not SSJ. If we use the one base theory, Goku should not even be able to turn SS or SS2 or SS3.

I don't see how it would be possible to differentiate between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue given that the one base theory says Goku has access to SSG power in Base at all times. So, SSG + SS = SSB. How the heck is SSG + SS = SS?????

[HeroR]

I don't get why people think ssj god =base after god. Yeah it makes you stronge having the ki but that doesn't mean its all I nthe base form. Getting ssj3 makes you stronger but it isn't all in the base. I mean ssj3 multiplier to god power...that a ridiculous thought. Beerus isn't that much stronger then ssjgod.

Again. When Goku lost his God form, he said he felt no power drop as a Super Saiyan. He also took hits from Beerus in his base form and punched a planet burster when Super Saiyan 3 Goku went down in two hits. So Goku's base is compatible with Super Saiyan God even if it is a little weaker.

Super isn't inconsistent with power levels. It has been shown repeatedly that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are super powerful without God ki and only Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have God ki. They also show that the Super Saiyan forms make Goku and Vegeta stronger even with their major power in their base forms. The reason people keep crying inconsistent is because they hate how strong Goku and Vegeta has become, and it meaning that any new enemy that can challenge them will kill any of the other Z-Fighters like fodder. They also miss the context of Piccolo vs. Frost and Goku sparring Trunks, and assumed they're much stronger than they are.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Alright, I have a question: Goku was able to fight Freeza in his Base without Super Saiyan. In Super, the two were shown to be equal, and Goku later said he had show his real power if he wanted to win. The Narrator also says he surpassed Freeza with Super Saiyan Blue. Now since they were equal, wouldn't Goku have been able to win against Freeza if he transformed into a normal Super Saiyan there? Assuming the "two Base theory" is a thing and the fact that Goku was using his "super powerful" Base against Freeza, would Goku be unable to transform into anything outside of Super Saiyan Blue because of this?

I know the whole point was to show Goku's new transformation, but I'd like an in-universe opinion.

Goku was still stronger than Freeza in his base form. Freeza only hit Goku by attacking his friends and even then Goku took no damage. Freeza is stronger compared to the movie, but he was still noticeably weaker than base form Goku.

I don't disagree, but Goku did say he had to transform in order to win. There's also the Narrator saying he surpassed Freeza by transforming into Super Saiyan Blue. I just put them as equals to make things easier.

Do you believe Goku could've transformed into a normal Super Saiyan during the fight with Freeza? I don't think you subscribe to the two Base theory, but I'm not entirely sure.

Obviously the two base theory explains this problem. If Base is just SSG without the appearance, then logic implies that Base-SSG + SS = SSB, not SSJ. If we use the one base theory, Goku should not even be able to turn SS or SS2 or SS3.

I don't see how it would be possible to differentiate between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue given that the one base theory says Goku has access to SSG power in Base at all times. So, SSG + SS = SSB. How the heck is SSG + SS = SS?????

Why not? Don't you believe Goku has enough mastery to utilize God Chi in his Base even though he can be sensed? I don't see how that'd be any worse than Goku being able to manipulate his Chi to transform into a Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan Blue.

This is how I see it:

Goku: 80
Super Saiyan God: 800,000
Super Saiyan Goku after absorbing Super Saiyan God Power: 799,000
Goku after absorbing Super Saiyan God Power: 400,000

Absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God merely boosted Goku overall. Goku only needs to be using God Chi when he taps into it to become Super Saiyan Blue. Goku doesn't need to be manipulating God Chi when fighting in Base since everyone can still gauge him without any issue. If we just look at Base Goku being incredibly strong because he absorbed the God Power and trained with Whis, it's not necessary to believe he has two Bases.