Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Draken wrote:Well you said Goku would be 60 million, which I assumed was under KK x 20, which would only be possibly if Goku was 3 million. So you kinda said Goku would be at 3 million if you used the 530k < 60 million example...
I think he was referring to Freeza's power when hit by the Genki Dama. He would have been at 60 million then.
Yes I was
Ooh okay. Well either way it would have taken time, and seeing how Freeza in the original timeline did his best to stop Goku, I think it's safe to say in this theoretical one he would have done the same. And there wouldn't have been a Piccolo around this time since they brought him back only after Goku was injured.[/quote]
But the question rise. Seeing how fast it took Goku to get a bomb strong enough to kill or hurt Great Ape Vegeta(Before Vegeta attack him) how long would it take Goku to make something stronger than 530k.
TheGmGoken wrote:
But the question rise. Seeing how fast it took Goku to get a bomb strong enough to kill or hurt Great Ape Vegeta(Before Vegeta attack him) how long would it take Goku to make something stronger than 530k.
The problem is that Namek was already mostly devoid of life. There wasn't much on Namek for him to take Genki from compared to Earth. And either way it would take at least 3x longer, and Freeza could be like U TRYING TO DO DA POWER UP? WELL HERE'S MY POWER UP BITCH and transform. It only takes maybe a second or so after all, the anime just likes to drag it out.
TheGmGoken wrote:
But the question rise. Seeing how fast it took Goku to get a bomb strong enough to kill or hurt Great Ape Vegeta(Before Vegeta attack him) how long would it take Goku to make something stronger than 530k.
The problem is that Namek was already mostly devoid of life. There wasn't much on Namek for him to take Genki from compared to Earth. And either way it would take at least 3x longer, and Freeza could be like U TRYING TO DO DA POWER UP? WELL HERE'S MY POWER UP BITCH and transform. It only takes maybe a second or so after all, the anime just likes to drag it out.
I'd say it takes more than a second. At least for the final form. Dende has time to fly over and heal Piccolo, and Piccolo has time to convince Dende to heal Vegeta before Freeza finishes transforming.
That's true but we're talking first transformation here. And we're also talking about the unlikely circumstance Goku acts extremely OOC and blitzes everyone.
Draken wrote:That's true but we're talking first transformation here. And we're also talking about the unlikely circumstance Goku acts extremely OOC and blitzes everyone.
Yeah, there's not really an indication of how long the first transformation took. If I had to guess, I'd say about 15-20 seconds, but that's just my guess, and it's not really based off anything.
Actually, a thought just occurred to me. The Freeza fight is the single biggest case of PIS in the entire series. There was an enemy that the heroes had absolutely no chance of beating, and two of the fighters were sitting on a combo that could kill him the whole time. I wish that, just once, Krillin would have used the Taiyoken-Kienzan combo. Even if it was against someone it wouldn't work on, like Buu or Cell.
Freeza took so long to transform so those plot points could occur. Transformation time is all plot based. Same for why Buu took so long to return after Trunks's kick. Buu couldn't return until Vegeta's " decision " was made.
Buu Saga Gohan (SS2), Goten, and Trunks vs Bojack's gang
Cell Games Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo + Kaioshin vs Bojack's gang (Bojack can't transform)
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Gohan and the kids win. I actually don't think Gohan would need any help destroying Bojack and his henchmen as a Super Saiyan 2.
Not sure about the second battle. I think normal Bojack is still stronger than Goku, so it'd come down to them defeating Bojack's henchmen to eliminate the teamwork factor. Once they do that, I think they'll have a better chance dealing with Bojack. If Kaioshin can use his telekinesis to stop Bojack, it'd be even better for them. Piccolo would probably just take hits in the battle.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Super Saiyan God Goku vs Super Saiyan Goku (with SSG power)
On the one hand, we know that SS Goku (with SSG power) is weaker than SSG Goku, but not significantly weaker. On the other hand, SSG has a time limit, while SS has not.
Also, SSG Goku can't absorb the SSG power. If the time runs out, then he is back to his normal base.
Can SSG Goku beat SS Goku before the time runs out?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Super Saiyan God Goku vs Super Saiyan Goku (with SSG power)
On the one hand, we know that SS Goku (with SSG power) is weaker than SSG Goku, but not significantly weaker. On the other hand, SSG has a time limit, while SS has not.
Also, SSG Goku can't absorb the SSG power. If the time runs out, then he is back to his normal base.
Can SSG Goku beat SS Goku before the time runs out?
I don't think so. I think SSJ SSG Goku would hold his own against Super Saiyan God Goku and take him to his limits. Then once SSG runs out SSJ SSG Goku would just toy with him. My cup of tea.
Given that Beers said that the difference in strength isn't much, I think he'd run out of time in this situation as well. If Goku with the God power absorbed can hold out against Beers who is stronger, he should be able to hold out against SSG Goku.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Bootenks takes this. Reminds me of the Gohan or Gotenks vs Pure Boo (SSJ3 Goku absorbed) possibility I wanted to see.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I think the difference in power between Pure Buu and Super Buu is greater than the difference between Gohan and Gotenks, so Buutenks has this.
Ditto. Super Buu is over twice as strong as Kid Buu on the low end, and Gohan clearly wasn't anywhere near twice as strong as Gotenks.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I'm going to say that Pure Boo (Gohan) would outlast the 30 minutes of fusion due to his regeneration (after all, Gohan managed at least 20 minutes on his own) and then beat Evil Boo.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Gotenks was about to disintegrate Super Buu after only fighting him for a few minutes, and Vegetto was apparently capable of completely killing Buuhan. IIRC Buutenks was toying with Gohan the whole time (he must have been having a lot of fun to drag it out to 30 minutes) and was about to kill him before Goku, Tien, and Dende did their separate interruptions.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
