That's not what my point is. Goku never absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga; implying that Goku is not leagues above anyone else unlike the movies and anime. That's why Piccolo being able to fight against Frost makes complete sense.kinisking wrote:Piccolo fights against Frost in the anime too and it's clear there that he absorbed the power.
Maybe Trunks isn't a prodigy in the same level as Gohan, but he certainly is at the same level as Vegeta and Goku. On the Cell Games he didn't reach Goku's level initially, simply because he was dumb and went with the wrong way. In the second trip he went alone, lacking a training partner of the same level as Gohan.Drayenko wrote:Goku's been training too.LightBing wrote:[*]A long period of training time and fights. Totaling 10 years.
This wasn't a factor in the Cell saga so there's no reason to think he is a prodigy.LightBing wrote:[*]Highly motivated character and hybrid-Saiyan, meaning a super prodigy(pun intended).
Goku has been training with a GOD OF DESTRUCTION.LightBing wrote:[*]A major fight against Babidi and Dabra. About one year of fight's with Black. Note: In Dragon Ball characters grow exponentially stronger in times of conflict, compared with peaceful periods.[/list]
Goku and Vegeta always train in their base form. Again. They've been training with people that are who knows how many time more powerful than Dabura, which Goku could have killed in the Buu saga, no problem.LightBing wrote:Is this not enough? Or is it because people can't imagine a SSJ2 being stronger/close to a SSJ3? I know Goku has also been training, but did Whis help him improve that much? Seemed to me that a huge chunk of it was about SSJB
You can justify this thing however you want. It makes no sense at all.
What the anime did was fair, as it showed a Goku that wasn't giving his everything during his sparring with Trunks.
Is Goku that much stronger than his Boo Arc self, without the God Forms? That's my whole view. If Goku was at God level in the manga, I would agree that it's ridiculous. Him not absorbing the God Power in the BoG arc and the lack of RoF, forces us to use the tournament to determine his level.kinisking wrote:This isn't as simple as ss2=ss3 though. I could have gotten behind that. This is ss2= God buffed ss3! If trunks was equal to ss3 goku in BOG that wouldve been fine Hut Goku's ss3 is way ahead of anything in Z at this point. Future trunks was never shown to be much more capable than Vegeta but now he's stronger than Goku would have ever been if he didn't meet Whis and Beerus.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
There's really no evidence that Future Trunks is a greater prodigy than Vegeta or Goku, since during the Cell arc when Vegeta and Trunks trained together they were pretty much equals.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Trunks isn't a prodigy? What?!
In the future world, he started training with Gohan at 14 years old, and he was already a Super Saiyan. As a Super Saiyan, he went from being weaker than base Future Gohan, to almost as strong as SS Goku before the RoSaT, with only 3.5 years of training alone without any special help like training with master martial artists & gods, greater gravity, sparring partners, or senzu to get multiple near-death power-ups, and with barely any experience with training. In the present world, Trunks managed to master Super Saiyan & surpass #18 when he was 8 years old, just by "playing fight" with Goten. Goten is an equal prodigy as Trunks, and as Gotenks, they invented Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, the most advanced ki technique in the series so far, proving that they are greater prodigies than their fathers. Even the Daizenshuu point out how great prodigies Goten & Trunks are.
What was Goku doing when he was 8 years old? He was having fun fighting with wolves. When he was 19? He was a few times weaker than Raditz, and he had trained with & surpassed the greatest martial artists on Earth, he had a ton of experience in training & fights, and even had his dormant powers drawn out.
To add to this, Future Gohan himself sees Future Trunks as Earth's last hope. It's his deathly motive for leaving him behind due to wanting him to survive long enough to surpass him.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Trunks isn't a prodigy? What?!
In the future world, he started training with Gohan at 14 years old, and he was already a Super Saiyan. As a Super Saiyan, he went from being weaker than base Future Gohan, to almost as strong as SS Goku before the RoSaT, with only 3.5 years of training alone without any special help like training with master martial artists & gods, greater gravity, sparring partners, or senzu to get multiple near-death power-ups, and with barely any experience with training. In the present world, Trunks managed to master Super Saiyan & surpass #18 when he was 8 years old, just by "playing fight" with Goten. Goten is an equal prodigy as Trunks, and as Gotenks, they invented Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, the most advanced ki technique in the series so far, proving that they are greater prodigies than their fathers. Even the Daizenshuu point out how great prodigies Goten & Trunks are.
What was Goku doing when he was 8 years old? He was having fun fighting with wolves. When he was 19? He was a few times weaker than Raditz, and he had trained with & surpassed the greatest martial artists on Earth, he had a ton of experience in training & fights, and even had his dormant powers drawn out.
Trunks was weaker than Vegeta before the RoSaT, and they were about equals after it. They also didn't train together even though they were inside together, and they focused mainly on surpassing Super Saiyan.Chiki wrote:There's really no evidence that Future Trunks is a greater prodigy than Vegeta or Goku, since during the Cell arc when Vegeta and Trunks trained together they were pretty much equals.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I really like this explanation. Really puts things into perspective. I'd still say that base Trunks would be weaker than Goku since his sudden attack was easily stopped by Goku. I think the theory of a version of SSJ2 that is close in power to SSJ3 is the way to go. It also somewhat explains Rageta and his massive power boost. Even Gohan's rage boosts were explained as being a result of the half-breed's dormant powers. The only way Vegeta can still get such ridiculous power even after Babidi surfaced his dormant powers HAS to be a SSJ2 variation that surpasses SSJ3. I'm starting to think that SSJ3 is really a side branch of the SSJ2 transformation like the Super Saiyan Grade II and III with Trunks and Vegeta's powered up SSJ2 being the REAL SSJ3, If that makes any sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Trunks isn't a prodigy? What?!
In the future world, he started training with Gohan at 14 years old, and he was already a Super Saiyan. As a Super Saiyan, he went from being weaker than base Future Gohan, to almost as strong as SS Goku before the RoSaT, with only 3.5 years of training alone without any special help like training with master martial artists & gods, greater gravity, sparring partners, or senzu to get multiple near-death power-ups, and with barely any experience with training. In the present world, Trunks managed to master Super Saiyan & surpass #18 when he was 8 years old, just by "playing fight" with Goten. Goten is an equal prodigy as Trunks, and as Gotenks, they invented Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, the most advanced ki technique in the series so far, proving that they are greater prodigies than their fathers. Even the Daizenshuu point out how great prodigies Goten & Trunks are.
What was Goku doing when he was 8 years old? He was having fun fighting with wolves. When he was 19? He was a few times weaker than Raditz, and he had trained with & surpassed the greatest martial artists on Earth, he had a ton of experience in training & fights, and even had his dormant powers drawn out.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.
How much weaker though? We don't know for sure. It's not really impressive that they were about equals considering that Gohan was well above Goku after they trained in the RoSaT together (Gohan was disappointed by Goku's performance against Cell), and the gap between Gohan and Goku was much much much larger than the gap btw. Trunks and Vegeta since Gohan didn't even have SS.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Trunks was weaker than Vegeta before the RoSaT, and they were about equals after it. They also didn't train together even though they were inside together, and they focused mainly on surpassing Super Saiyan.Chiki wrote:There's really no evidence that Future Trunks is a greater prodigy than Vegeta or Goku, since during the Cell arc when Vegeta and Trunks trained together they were pretty much equals.
Even if it was, you could easily say it meant 30 mins at a time.Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I totally forgot Goku didn't absorb SSG like he did the movie/anime now that makes a lot of sense with how or why Goku goes SSG in the Manga.
So was the time limit ever mentioned in the Manga then?
Not just God Ki but SSG!SquadronGOD wrote:I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but did anyone notice the sparkles when Goku kicked Trunks in the back of the head? Did he use god ki to KO Trunks?
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
I'm having a REALLY strong feeling that Goku's gonna use SSJG in his fight against Black (Probably in the next chapter).TheMikado wrote:Not just God Ki but SSG!SquadronGOD wrote:I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but did anyone notice the sparkles when Goku kicked Trunks in the back of the head? Did he use god ki to KO Trunks?
Well, Trunks and Gohan are NOWHERE as close as Goku when it comes to fighting genius, so I'd say they're a different kind of prodigies in the sense that they have amazing (wasted) potential.Drayenko wrote:Trunks is not a "prodigy" whatever you want that to mean.
And all this talk about "limits", what the hell people. There are no limits in Dragon Ball. These guys have been pushing the "limit" since the 21st tenkaichi budokai.
I got a question for all of you agreeing with this nonsense power level. If Trunks wasn't this powerful would you be arguing that he should be this powerful?
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.
Gohan's super inexperienced so I don't doubt that he isnt close to Goku, but Future Trunks? It looks like he came back faster, stronger, and smarter. I wouldn't be surprised if he's on Vegeta's level when it comes to tactics.DBZ Macky wrote:I'm having a REALLY strong feeling that Goku's gonna use SSJG in his fight against Black (Probably in the next chapter).TheMikado wrote:Not just God Ki but SSG!SquadronGOD wrote:I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but did anyone notice the sparkles when Goku kicked Trunks in the back of the head? Did he use god ki to KO Trunks?
Well, Trunks and Gohan are NOWHERE as close as Goku when it comes to fighting genius, so I'd say they're a different kind of prodigies in the sense that they have amazing (wasted) potential.Drayenko wrote:Trunks is not a "prodigy" whatever you want that to mean.
And all this talk about "limits", what the hell people. There are no limits in Dragon Ball. These guys have been pushing the "limit" since the 21st tenkaichi budokai.
I got a question for all of you agreeing with this nonsense power level. If Trunks wasn't this powerful would you be arguing that he should be this powerful?
I agree with you on the limits thing but you aren't gonna see Krillin beating Beerus's ass from a rage boost even if he kills Android #18. The earthlings have arguably reached their limits by the Androids arc and Vegeta's comment about the saiyans reaching their limits (In their bases obviously) must hold some significance.
Also, am I the only one who thinks Toyotaro's art has changed a lot since his DragonBall AF days? Just read it a couple days ago, couldn't tell that it was the same artist. It hasn't been completely confirmed that Toyble = Toyotaro right?
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
