Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

That's adding a lot of interpretation and assumption (not to mention hard numbers the series proper never uses), when I was just trying to recap the events that have led to viewer confusion.

Could you be more specific? I only stated the facts.

Base form being equivalent to Super Saiyan God (when we only see Goku fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan), Super Saiyan no longer providing a boost, and any hard multipliers are all interpretive/non-obvious conclusions for viewers. I'm sure you could present evidence, but they're not easy takeaways or where the confusion lies for fans not intensely steeped in power debates.

That's why I was wording my post in terms of "crazy strong" and "not crazy strong." The most basic reason people find relative power confusing in Super is because Goku's base power was implied at multiple points to be muuuuuch higher than it was previously, and now that non-Super Saiyan Blue forms have returned, it's never been completely clear what it means for the strength of his and Vegeta's opponents when they use them. No need to make it any more or less complicated than that.

[Khin]

Conveniently, we never see Goku fight Freeza in the manga (does base Goku fight Freeza in the "F" adaptation?), which is one of the lynchpins of any relative-strength confusion.

Base Goku fought Freeza in the manga version of the Revival of 'F' movie, but i consider that as an adaptation from the movie and not Super.

[Bullza]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/766252707770347520

Looks like the 2 base theory is pretty much alive in the manga.

But we already knew Trunks was stronger than Gohan.

[TheMikado]

Considering that it was never implied that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga, the line completely makes sense and makes the power scaling in the manga much less of a head ache compared to the anime. I really don't see anything that hits the two-base theory in this, since i see the manga as.

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

That is the two base theory

[Chiki]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/766252707770347520

Looks like the 2 base theory is pretty much alive in the manga.

But we already knew Trunks was stronger than Gohan.

...He only mentioned Cell Games Gohan. Goku didn't mention anyone else. You were proven wrong, period.

Why is it so important that he only mentioned CG Gohan? It can be demonstrated that he did not think Trunks was SSG level or anywhere near that. If he were, he would have said so. To not say that would violate one of the most basic maxims of conversations between humans (maxim of quantity, which means be as informative as possible).

Violations of the maxim of quantity are absurd, and therefore your suggestion is also similarly absurd. For example, saying that Beerus is stronger than Mr. Briefs is a trivially true statement and a massive violation of the maxim of quantity. Saying that Stalin killed 2 people when he killed like 20 million iirc is again, trivially true, but a massive violation of the maxim of quantity. Normal human beings don't talk like this. Maybe robots would.

Thinking that Toyotaro speaks like a robot in real life and writes his characters in that way is stupid.

It would be like saying that Namek Saga Goku is stronger than Saiyan Saga Yamcha or something if Trunks were god level. Again, you were wrong.

[Overlord78]

Considering that it was never implied that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga, the line completely makes sense and makes the power scaling in the manga much less of a head ache compared to the anime. I really don't see anything that hits the two-base theory in this, since i see the manga as.

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

That is the two base theory

SSG is treated as a transformation in the manga though. The way I see it, there is only 1 base form in the manga and Goku doesn't have God ki in his base since he never absorbed it in the manga unlike the anime/ movie.

[Khin]

Considering that it was never implied that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga, the line completely makes sense and makes the power scaling in the manga much less of a head ache compared to the anime. I really don't see anything that hits the two-base theory in this, since i see the manga as.

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

That is the two base theory

Can you please elaborate ? I don’t see how my post above is the two-base theory.

[TheMikado]

Considering that it was never implied that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power in the manga, the line completely makes sense and makes the power scaling in the manga much less of a head ache compared to the anime. I really don't see anything that hits the two-base theory in this, since i see the manga as.

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

That is the two base theory

SSG is treated as a transformation in the manga though. The way I see it, there is only 1 base form in the manga and Goku doesn't have God ki in his base since he never absorbed it in the manga unlike the anime/ movie.

The argument is if they can switch God ki on and off like a light switch. Basically SSG acts a second base because they can theoritical build their SSJ forms off of it like their normal base.

The single base people believe the progression is Base< SSJ1-3< SSB with the base form being at God level. If you believe either SSG or Saiyan beyond God are forms that Goku can turn on and off at will and are more powerful than SSJ3 then you believe in the two base theory whether or not it's visible or included in the anime.

[Khin]

The argument is if they can switch God ki on and off like a light switch. Basically SSG acts a second base because they can theoritical their SSJ forms off of it like their normal base.

But that’s not what i posted. The two base from the theory is the so called ''Saiyan Beyond God'' and the regular Base. The Super Saiyan God is another transformation, not another base.

[Hugo Boss]

As far as I know, the two-base theory is based on the premise that Goku has a normal form, probably in the same realm of strength of Piccolo or Base Trunks, and a stronger normal form when he uses god ki, which translates into him having power similar/close to that of a Super Saiyan God, despite none noticing. I believe that's all. A very simple premise.

Yes, and that's exactly why there is no difference between the original theory (Base and SBG) and the manga's two bases (Base and SSG). They are similar/the same/close in power level.

No, Base is the regular black-haired Goku we all know. Saiyan Beyond God only fits the description of Base, because it doesn't change Goku's look. Super Saiyan God is a transformation.

The main problem may not even be the lack of explanation or visual clue, but the theory fails to cover why Goku didn't abandon Super Saiyan and its variations. He wouldn't need to waste energy in the process of a transformation if he has access to god ki without the need to transform. So, in the attempt of solving an aparent issue, it creates another one, even bigger.

It does cover it. Goku and Vegeta want a challenge, but don't want to just own their opponents in the tournament/get owned by them, so they turn SS for guys like Frost and Magetta and Cabba who aren't strong but can't be defeated by Base without SSG.

It doesn't seem to me like that. Goku said all his opponents were strong and each one pushed him as far as it was showed. Conserving energy for next opponent is a basic strategy to win a battle royal. Using Super Saiyan Blue from the start wouldn't do any good, but the uber-powerful Saiyan Beyond God doesn't have such handicap. It's the second Base we are talking about, it wouldn't take much energy from them. They would defeat anyone from Botamo to Cabba easily with that power.

However, Goku using Super Saiyan God in the manga confirms he has two base forms? I don't think so. That's practically a confirmation that Goku turns into a different form when he uses god ki and that he gets stronger than when he is just a Super Saiyan. At least in the manga. He doesn't use Super Saiyan God against Hit in the anime, so we can't tell how god ki affects him when he is not a Super Saiyan Blue there.

If a base for a Saiyan is a non-Super Saiyan form, which it is, then SSG is a second Base.

Bolded part: That's what the two base theory says, isn't it?

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms. One is close to his Boo Arc's power and the other has the power of Super Saiyan God.

Since the two base theory argues that the gap between SS3 and SSB is very large, how would Goku be able to fight Super Saiyan Princess Black without going SBG/SSG? If Goku has a form like that, he'll use it.

It was spoiled/hinted that Goku will fight Super Saiyan Rose with Super Saiyan Blue. I thought you were talking about Black's current form. By the way, Saiyan Beyond God is not a transformation. If Goku uses Super Saiyan God, it's implied he needs to transform to access the power of said form. That's the kind of vagueness which permits the two-base theory to still exist in the anime.

[Bullza]

...He only mentioned Cell Games Gohan. Goku didn't mention anyone else.

So? He isn't gonna mention Gotenks is he? Trunks doesn't even know who is. Cell Games Gohan was the strongest character at the time Trunks was last there.

Even if Trunks isn't God level, what does that have to do with two bases?

At least see the manga and view the context of what was said before being obnoxious again. Maybe Trunks doesn't push Goku back in the manga or get Beerus' compliments unlike the anime.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's adding a lot of interpretation and assumption (not to mention hard numbers the series proper never uses), when I was just trying to recap the events that have led to viewer confusion.

Could you be more specific? I only stated the facts.

Base form being equivalent to Super Saiyan God (when we only see Goku fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan), Super Saiyan no longer providing a boost, and any hard multipliers are all interpretive/non-obvious conclusions for viewers. I'm sure you could present evidence, but they're not easy takeaways or where the confusion lies for fans not intensely steeped in power debates.

That's why I was wording my post in terms of "crazy strong" and "not crazy strong." The most basic reason people find relative power confusing in Super is because Goku's base power was implied at multiple points to be muuuuuch higher than it was previously, and now that non-Super Saiyan Blue forms have returned, it's never been completely clear what it means for the strength of his and Vegeta's opponents when they use them. No need to make it any more or less complicated than that.

The base form is shown & stated to be on SSG level in the movie, the original source material from the original author. And since we see that regular SS isn't stronger than SSG, it means that it no longer makes a difference, like SSG, which we got a confirmation from Toriyama about SSG being useless. Goku also didn't use SS2 or SS3 against Beerus to surpass SSG, meaning that they wouldn't help him either. But in the new story arcs in Super (U6 & F. Trunks arcs), regular SS was stated to make him dozens of times stronger than his base, and SS2 & SS3 make him significantly more powerful, but still weaker than SSG & SSB (the specific numbers are stated in guidebooks supervised & approved by Toriyama, so they are not speculation).

[TheMikado]

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms. One is close to his Boo Arc's power and the other has the power of Super Saiyan God.

No this shows a lack of understanding of what the two base power theory is. The theory is that Goku posesses a form which does not utilize SSJ but utilizes God Ki. A second God "base" form without the SSJ transformation. In the anime this form does not exist, as base Goku is sensible at all times and gives no appreciable visible change, same as Saiyan beyond God. The Saiyan beyond God would be considered the second "God" base with the God Ki on. The next level immediately following that form is SSB rather than SSJ. In the manga this form is represented by SSG. So again if you believe Goku has both a God and non God form without SSJ you believe that same thing that the other two base people believe just that in the anime the stronger God form is not explained explicitly or visually.

[Chiki]

No, Base is the regular black-haired Goku we all know. Saiyan Beyond God only fits the description of Base, because it doesn't change Goku's look. Super Saiyan God is a transformation.

Like TheMikado said, the problem here is that you don't understand the two base theory completely. SBG is also a transformation. Goku "transforms" into SBG in DB Heroes.

And why does it matter if SBG doesn't change Goku's look? This is a power level debate so why does appearance matter at all? It doesn't and shouldn't.

It doesn't seem to me like that. Goku said all his opponents were strong and each one pushed him as far as it was showed. Conserving energy for next opponent is a basic strategy to win a battle royal. Using Super Saiyan Blue from the start wouldn't do any good, but the uber-powerful Saiyan Beyond God doesn't have such handicap. It's the second Base we are talking about, it wouldn't take much energy from them. They would defeat anyone from Botamo to Cabba easily with that power.

But using SBG on relative weaklings (relative to Gods) like Cabba and Magetta and Frost would be completely anticlimactic. They want to beat their opponents with some ease, but not too easily.

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms. One is close to his Boo Arc's power and the other has the power of Super Saiyan God.

The two base theory says nothing about Goku having black hair. Have you ever seen anyone defining the two base theory using Goku's hair? I think defining a Base as "black haired Goku" is silly since the two base theory is about power level and not about how Goku looks.

It was spoiled/hinted that Goku will fight Super Saiyan Rose with Super Saiyan Blue. I thought you were talking about Black's current form. By the way, Saiyan Beyond God is not a transformation. If Goku uses Super Saiyan God, it's implied he needs to transform to access the power of said form. That's the kind of vagueness which permits the two-base theory to still exist in the anime.

The previews strongly imply that Goku takes a long time to go SSB, but we could be wrong.

SBG is definitely a transformation. If you look at the dictionary:

change in form, appearance, nature, or character.

It doesn't JUST have to be a change in appearance. It can also be a change in nature, and Goku goes from being a mortal to being a God, so yeah I'd call that a transformation.

[Cipher]

The base form is shown & stated to be on SSG level in the movie, the original source material from the original author. And since we see that regular SS isn't stronger than SSG, it means that it no longer makes a difference, like SSG, which we got a confirmation from Toriyama about SSG being useless. Goku also didn't use SS2 or SS3 against Beerus to surpass SSG, meaning that they wouldn't help him either. But in the new story arcs in Super (U6 & F. Trunks arcs), regular SS was stated to make him dozens of times stronger than his base, and SS2 & SS3 make him significantly more powerful, but still weaker than SSG & SSB (the specific numbers are stated in guidebooks supervised & approved by Toriyama, so they are not speculation).

Is it? I thought it was vague on that point, but it's been a while since I've watched. Fair point on his not using Super Saiyan 2 or 3 against Beerus -- I'd forgotten that, but that did lead to a pretty natural assumption for a long time that they didn't provide any significant increase, which was doubled down on by Blue appearing in the next movie.

The multipliers don't factor into what I was trying to get at, since they aren't part of anyone's experience just watching the movies and show. I did forget to include the natural assumption he couldn't use higher Super Saiyan forms though, making their comeback extra confusing.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/766252707770347520

Looks like the 2 base theory is pretty much alive in the manga.

How does this change anything from the anime? He's just confirming Trunks is Super Saiyan 2 (stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games -- a similar line was used during the Goku and Vegeta fight in the Boo arc to clarify to the audience they were in the same higher Super Saiyan form). Were people assuming Trunks was Super Saiyan God-level in the TV series?

[buutenks]

I guess ssj rose Black will be a good match for ssj blue considering in his base form he can match ssj2 Goku.

Think the only way the 2 base form is proven is if Goku fails to beat someone using ssj1/2/3, then goes back to base form and one shots said opponent.

[TheMikado]

Were people assuming Trunks was Super Saiyan God-level in the TV series?

Yes a very large group in here believe it's that way, and to be fair the anime seems to casually imply base Goku and base Trunks in the same tier which would lead some who aren't following closely to assume Trunks is also above SSJ3 Gotenks in base.

[Cipher]

Were people assuming Trunks was Super Saiyan God-level in the TV series?

Yes a very large group in here believe it's that way, and to be fair the anime seems to casually imply base Goku and base Trunks in the same tier which would lead some who aren't following closely to assume Trunks is also above SSJ3 Gotenks in base.

Yo, that's fucking crazy.

I agree that the anime has been confusing with its portrayal of Goku and Trunks (it's one of the reasons his use of lower Super Saiyan forms is so confusing), but then you have things like Goku easily beating Black as a Super Saiyan 2 (the same form he briefly spars Trunks in, if you can call that sparring), who Trunks can't even touch. Not to mention, Trunks seems floored that levels of power like Goku and Vegeta's even exist, and had to struggle against Dabra not long ago.

The problem seems to be inconsistently portraying Goku as weaker than he might be (or, that two-base theory, if you must)/not clarifying when he's playing around or what his use of Super Saiyan 1-3 really mean. At no point does assuming Trunks was meant to be that radically strong make any sense.

There's a whole lot of weirdness with Black that might add to the confusion either way, of course:

Trunks, as a Super Saiyan 2, can't seem to beat Black at all. Black is some great deal stronger. Goku and Trunks spar briefly as Super Saiyan 2 (and 3), which could just be showing off. Then Goku proceeds to fairly handily beat Black as a Super Saiyan 2, and Trunks doesn't seem to register that Goku is much stronger than he was during their sparring at all. In fact, his dialogue implies the only way they're stronger than he is is through the use of Super Saiyan 3 and Blue.

And none of that lines up with either "base" theory at all, or even its own logic. I guess you have to assume Trunks wasn't paying attention to Goku's power when he was fighting Black.

If Trunks and Goku are the same power as Super Saiyan 2 (which I guess would be the two-base theory?), it doesn't make any sense that Goku could so easily beat Black.

EDIT -- But then Trunks says Goku was using "more power when we fought" than he is against Black, referencing Super Saiyan 3. So, ???????. That just doesn't play out well.

You have Black some great deal stronger than Trunks, Super Saiyan 2 Goku equal to Trunks both during sparring and against Black, but Goku able to go toe to toe with, if not outright outclass, Black. Idk man.

Is he super-duper holding back both against Trunks and Black (in which case, why even use Super Saiyan 2 against Black, when he should be stronger in base form or Super Saiyan than he was pre-Battle of Gods as a Super Saiyan 2)? Is he only as strong in base form as he was in the Boo arc (which would require something like the two-base theory in order to align with his fight against Freeza and even Beerus)? Is Black both much stronger than Trunks, but also only about as strong as Trunks? Does anyone check scripts for a kind of surface-level consistency? Probably not.

[Bullza]

Yeah it could go either way yet. In the manga is it just Goku saying that Trunks is stronger than Cell Games Gohan because Trunks just happens to be around as strong as Buu saga SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta?

Or was there a specific reason he mentioned Cell Games Gohan? Does Trunks refer to Gohan when he fought Cell and Goku's just telling him he's stronger than that now?

Is it just gonna be another difference between the manga and anime and Trunks' power differs between versions? Or is Trunks in the anime really just Buu saga level after all? He could well be but his fight with SSJB Vegeta would make that a bit odd but maybe that won't be in the manga.

[buutenks]

Think if they meant to place Trunks at ssg level, they would have mentioned it in universe.