Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Think if they meant to place Trunks at ssg level, they would have mentioned it in universe.

That is the one thing I have no doubt about. Everything else is crazy unclear and hard even to rectify with itself.

[buutenks]

However inconsistent the anime is. The way i see it is all u6 fighters(except Hit), Final Form Freeza, Black, Zamasu, Ssj2 Trunks are simply very powerful, but nowhere near super saiyan god level.

Even the explanation of ssj blue is a super saiyan with the power of a super saiyan god.

What i think is that for Goku to access the power which he used to fight against Beerus, he needs to go ssj blue. Rest of forms, is simply for the giggles.

Ofc Goku's base form is much stronger than before, due to Whis' training.

Super saiyan god level=Whis, Beerus, Hit, Champa, Vados, Ssj Blue, SsG etc



Nowhere near super saiyan god level=everybody else.

[Bullza]

I dunno because they specifically made a point that Super Saiyan Goku was no weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku and there's never been a comment thats gone against that. So really any character near or about that level should theoretically be around as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan Blue was supposed to be something entirely separate because they said that was stronger than Super Saiyan God and they had to learn to power up their Ki internally to create that whereas the regular Super Saiyan can still be sensed.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The base form is shown & stated to be on SSG level in the movie, the original source material from the original author. And since we see that regular SS isn't stronger than SSG, it means that it no longer makes a difference, like SSG, which we got a confirmation from Toriyama about SSG being useless. Goku also didn't use SS2 or SS3 against Beerus to surpass SSG, meaning that they wouldn't help him either. But in the new story arcs in Super (U6 & F. Trunks arcs), regular SS was stated to make him dozens of times stronger than his base, and SS2 & SS3 make him significantly more powerful, but still weaker than SSG & SSB (the specific numbers are stated in guidebooks supervised & approved by Toriyama, so they are not speculation).

Is it? I thought it was vague on that point, but it's been a while since I've watched. Fair point on his not using Super Saiyan 2 or 3 against Beerus -- I'd forgotten that, but that did lead to a pretty natural assumption for a long time that they didn't provide any significant increase, which was doubled down on by Blue appearing in the next movie.

The multipliers don't factor into what I was trying to get at, since they aren't part of anyone's experience just watching the movies and show. I did forget to include the natural assumption he couldn't use higher Super Saiyan forms though, making their comeback extra confusing.

Beerus said that after SSG disappeared, Goku's power didn't decrease much. When SSG disappeared, Goku was in his base form. We even see that base Goku keeps fighting Beerus as good as he did in his SSG form, and Goku never noticed that he lost the power of SSG until Beerus told him. He went from SSG to base to SS, and he didn't notice any difference. Then after realizing what happened, he didn't attempt to use SS2 & SS3 even though Beerus had him & the whole planet on a corner. So, it seems very obvious to me that after absorbing the power of SSG, Goku's base, SS, SS2, SS3, and SSG are all in around the same level with minor differences. Base Goku still had that power in FnF. But he didn't display it in the U6 & Future Trunks arcs so far.

As for the multipliers, it is stated in Super that SS makes them dozens of times stronger, so there is that.

[Kaboom]

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

[Hugo Boss]

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms. One is close to his Boo Arc's power and the other has the power of Super Saiyan God.

No this shows a lack of understanding of what the two base power theory is.

[...]

This is everything that needs to be said:
[spoiler]

The two base from the theory is the so called ''Saiyan Beyond God'' and the regular Base. The Super Saiyan God is another transformation, not another base.

[/spoiler]

We have been calling the regular black-haired Goku "base", because he has transformations. It's an obvious fact. If you think Saiyan Beyond God is a transformation, then by definition it's not a "base". You can only conceive two-bases if Saiyan Beyond God is not a transformation.

But using SBG on relative weaklings (relative to Gods) like Cabba and Magetta and Frost would be completely anticlimactic. They want to beat their opponents with some ease, but not too easily.

Vegeta had no problem with beating Frost and Cabba quickly. If he had such stage that is equivalent to Super Saiyan God he wouldn't have trouble with beating Magetta that easily too. Goku vs. Frost and Vegeta vs. Magetta are pretty solid indication that the Saiyans wanted to hide their trump card to fight Hit. And the trump card in question was revealed to be Super Saiyan Blue.

SBG is definitely a transformation. If you look at the dictionary:

change in form, appearance, nature, or character.

It doesn't JUST have to be a change in appearance. It can also be a change in nature, and Goku goes from being a mortal to being a God, so yeah I'd call that a transformation.

Fair point.

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

These are exactly my impressions from the events that followed Beerus' battle on Earth.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

The FnF manga, which was supervised by Toriyama, shows otherwise. The promotion of the movie in Heroes says the same thing. And no one ever said that Goku absorbed the power temporarily.

[Bullza]

Plus Vegeta had to have a six month head start on Whis' training just to catch back up to Goku who mainly just spent his time farming.

When Goku saw him he said Vegeta had powered up to the point he didn't recognize him and he was as strong as Goku.

So Goku must have also powered up to the point he was unrecognizable after fighting Beerus.

Whether he's as strong as SSJG at that point in Base is unclear but he's stronger than Gotenks and the power seems to have stuck.

[Kaboom]

The FnF manga, which was supervised by Toriyama, shows otherwise. The promotion of the movie in Heroes says the same thing. And no one ever said that Goku absorbed the power temporarily.

You'll have to elaborate on those first two things for me, I'm afraid.

As for the third, I don't and won't claim that Goku actually lost the god-power after fighting Beerus, or anything. Just that it seems like he lost his hold on it or access to it, and needed training to use it at will. It's a strange and intense new power that he needed to have forced upon him by the ritual at first.

[DanielSSJ]

You'll have to elaborate on those first two things for me, I'm afraid.

As for the third, I don't and won't claim that Goku actually lost the god-power after fighting Beerus, or anything. Just that it seems like he lost his hold on it or access to it, and needed training to use it at will. It's a strange and intense new power that he needed to have forced upon him by the ritual at first.

I'm willing bet to he's referring to the panel where Goku has an image of his Super Saiyan God self superimposed behind him as he attacks Whis in the Resurrection F manga. No idea what he's referring to in Heroes, though.

[Xeztin]

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

To quote myself from the other thread:

The anime implies SSJ is now as powerful if not more than SSG while the manga states SSJ is less powerful than SSG. How is that not a contradiction?

Where?

I am confused by this, Super Saiyan is the same as it's always been the only form onpar/beyond with SSG in the anime is SSJB. Same in the manga too, Super Saiyan has been the same since it's introduction in the original manga. I'm guessing your referring to the BoG arc where Goku fought Beerus in SSJ with the strength of SSG, but I chalk that up to him "Holding on to the feeling (Power)" for a bit longer than the usual 30 minutes and then he let it go. After that it took either SSG or SSJB to bring out "God Ki" again, or that's my thoughts on it anyways. The whole SSJ on par with SSG in BoG was just the pure will power of Goku wanting to protect Earth is my opinion, in other words it was a one-off thing.

I share this view also, you're not alone.

[RandomGuy96]

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

That's what I've always gone with.

[buutenks]

I dunno because they specifically made a point that Super Saiyan Goku was no weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku and there's never been a comment thats gone against that. So really any character near or about that level should theoretically be around as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan Blue was supposed to be something entirely separate because they said that was stronger than Super Saiyan God and they had to learn to power up their Ki internally to create that whereas the regular Super Saiyan can still be sensed.

If so that would place, base Black and Magetta at ss god level, which i doubt. since no one commented on how massive their PL is, if they would have been at ss god level.

Freeza only got commented as being a monster when he transformed in his Golden form. FF Freeza was strong, but didnt warrant such a comment.

[HeroR]

I dunno because they specifically made a point that Super Saiyan Goku was no weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku and there's never been a comment thats gone against that. So really any character near or about that level should theoretically be around as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan Blue was supposed to be something entirely separate because they said that was stronger than Super Saiyan God and they had to learn to power up their Ki internally to create that whereas the regular Super Saiyan can still be sensed.

If so that would place, base Black and Magetta at ss god level, which i doubt. since no one commented on how massive their PL is, if they would have been at ss god level.

Freeza only got commented as being a monster when he transformed in his Golden form. FF Freeza was strong, but didnt warrant such a comment.

Freeza was called a monster in his first form when Piccolo said that even if they attacked him at once they couldn't do a thing. Piccolo was also shocked, in the movie, that Freeza was more monstrous than ever, but Goku didn't take a single blow in his base form. Beerus and Whis also called Black powerful. And Black was said to be equal to more powerful that Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Also, the characters can't feel Super Saiyan God, unless you're talking about Goku's Super Saiyan form after he lost godhood.

[HeroR]

Yeah it could go either way yet. In the manga is it just Goku saying that Trunks is stronger than Cell Games Gohan because Trunks just happens to be around as strong as Buu saga SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta?

Or was there a specific reason he mentioned Cell Games Gohan? Does Trunks refer to Gohan when he fought Cell and Goku's just telling him he's stronger than that now?

Is it just gonna be another difference between the manga and anime and Trunks' power differs between versions? Or is Trunks in the anime really just Buu saga level after all? He could well be but his fight with SSJB Vegeta would make that a bit odd but maybe that won't be in the manga.

Why would it be odd? Vegeta held back as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan so he wouldn't kill/knock Trunks out. There would be no point in sparring if Vegeta floors Trunks in one hit. The same with Goku as a Super Saiyan 2 just blocking Trunks' hits. Nothing has been shown that puts Trunks on Goku or Vegeta's level, other than, 'why didn't they flattened Trunks, despite that not being the point'.

[Chiki]

We have been calling the regular black-haired Goku "base", because he has transformations. It's an obvious fact. If you think Saiyan Beyond God is a transformation, then by definition it's not a "base".

Like I said, SBG is also a transformation so there's no reason why SSG can't also be a base.

You can only conceive two-bases if Saiyan Beyond God is not a transformation.

If SBG is also a transformation, which it is since it's a change in nature, then there's no problem in conceiving Base + SSG as the two base theory as well.

Even if you're right, we could just redefine the two base theory no problem lol. I don't see why we need to be so closed-minded and limit ourselves to an outdated definition. Logicians and philosophers have always redefined theories when they were outdated so why can't we?

[TheMikado]

I'm not going to argue semantics, The two base theory, as in literally Goku looking exactly the same but having two totally different power levels and transformation ascensions was conceived SOLEY because it is NOT shown in the ANIME

In the manga,
No God Ki = base Goku
God Ki = SSG Goku

In the anime,
No God Ki = base Goku
God ki = ???? Doesn't exist, base Goku is just really really strong now.


The two base theory is because in the Manga SSG exists as an ongoing transformation.
One side argues that this shouldn't be the case and Goku absorbed the God power making his base stronger.
The other side, now with evidence from the anime, argues that the Ki can be turned on and off and its just invisible in the anime,
causing a second more powerful base to randomly appear whenever plot convenient but no indication to the audience.

The fact is both are correct because that's how both media have presented it. I feel people need to face facts that Toriyama's outline was probably just written on the back of a napkin in a diner somewhere while Toei convinced him to let them use his name to avoid a repeat of GT. Ironically it seems a lot of fans fell for it.

[The Monkey King]

Doesn't anyone else but me suspect that Goku "wasn't much weaker" in base/SS against Beerus simply because he managed to hold on to the fading Super Saiyan God power for a while longer? Not necessarily because his base form got some massive automatic upgrade to 90% of his Super Saiyan God level?

Yes, he did also absorb the god-power and "make it his own." But with what Super has shown, it really seems like he needed Whis' training to bring it out at will.

I agree with this.

I think what happened with Goku's SSJG power when he fought Beerus was like when you turn off a hot iron (bear with me here lol)

Even though you've turned it off it's still as hot as when it was turned on and takes a while for the heat to fade away.

I think this is what happened to Goku SSJG power initially so he needed Whis' training to bring out this 'heat' when he needed it.

I see it like this:

Normal ki: Base-SSJ-SSJ2-SSJ3
God ki: Base-SSJG-SSJB

But then again Super is a mess power level wise so I stopped taking this stuff so seriously like how I did with the manga.

[LightBing]

Regarding if Goku absorbed the "God power" at the end of the BoG, each continuity does it differently.

Movie Continuity: Goku definitely absorbs it. In RoF, I presume the intention is to have his Base be at least close to SSJG. SSJ is useless. In BoG Goku went SSJ at the end because it's has more impact. Pretty sure Mr.Toriyama said something like this.

Manga Continuity: Goku doesn't absorb it. The important line and the post-absorption fight are absent. RoF, the arc which creates the most problems is absent. We get a narrator line saying that by training with Whis both Goku and Vegeta obtained SSJB, which surpasses SSJG.

Anime Continuity: Goku absorbing it is ambiguous. While it's 100% sure he absorbs it during the fight, afterwards we have some confusing information which might indicate it was temporary, like the tree comparison.
In the anime, everything is poorly explained if it's even explained at all. Guessing anything is like walking through a minefield.

To preserve my sanity I only use the manga to track the power levels. The anime power levels, at this point I don't care that much. While the manga isn't perfect and doesn't tell us everything(so Goku can still use SSJG?), it doesn't shoot itself in the foot and makes sense within itself.

[TheMikado]

^ pretty much this. It's like half the writers/animators watched the movies and made assumptions off that while the other half read the outline and made assumptions off that. I doubt they even had meetings to make sure consistency was kept between episodes so just like here we have a set of people believe two different things and making the anime as such. The consistency literally matches everything else about Super in terms of its production...