MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/11/26!)

[Gaffer Tape]

Thank you! Right back at you.

[Codarik]

coola beat me to the punch again, but, yeah, here it is, for Christmas:

DBD: The 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc Part 3!

Enjoy!

Best Christmas gift I got all day. You're doing a fantastic job with these and I really look forward to each one.

[TheGmGoken]

As usual I disagree with things. The predictability is what makes this saga so good. Predictability is not bad. The story was told amazingly on how every character grew. I love it. This is one of those moments where you don't need twist or turns. New characters or even a surprise victory. You tell the obvious story. The fighting was the best. I mean in ANY part of the series. From DB to DBGT(I UNDERSTAND it's not manga). This arc right here, had the best action.

Now I find it funny that Piccolo listen to the rules. But this comes in the fact that Piccolo is not the same as his father. It also shows that Piccolo is an honorable fighter and shows DB humor. "The big bad still listen to the rules LOL". I mean DB isn't the first nor last to do this. It's actually pretty common that villain listen to silly rules.

Why didn't Piccolo restart the fight when BOTH was healed 100%?. Because the results would be the same and Piccolo knew this. Hence why he swore revenge and he will be back. It would make zero sense to restart the fight unless you want Piccolo to be an total idiot. Goku is also a very talented fighter who outsmarted Jackie Chan and Ten.

I do agree that God(Kami) is a asshole. But who isn't in DB? It gets worst in part 2 where even Goku turns into an assbutt. Overall I love this arc. Very good story telling that did not nerd to be complex. Predictable is very good in this case. Actually one of the better story arcs in mangas.

8/10. Ranked 3rd. Compared to Piccolo Daimao(1st/2nd) and Freeza(2nd/1st) 10/10. Amazing how our opinions are so different. I still respect yours though as you explain yourself in a well thought out manner.

[Gaffer Tape]

I thought you said you were going to wait until the end?

As usual I disagree with things. The predictability is what makes this saga so good. Predictability is not bad. The story was told amazingly on how every character grew. I love it. This is one of those moments where you don't need twist or turns. New characters or even a surprise victory. You tell the obvious story. The fighting was the best. I mean in ANY part of the series. From DB to DBGT(I UNDERSTAND it's not manga). This arc right here, had the best action.

I certainly wouldn't agree that predictability makes it good. Nor am I saying that predictability is necessarily bad. In all of Dragon Ball, the outcome is predictable: good triumphs over evil. That's pretty damned predictable. But that's not what makes it bad. In that same spiel I even say that, that it's the journey not the destination. However, the journey is predictable too. And not just predictable but painfully aware of its predictability. That it really only WANTS Goku, Ma, and Shen to be around, but, oh, we have five other slots to fill up as well. Well, let's just get it over with quickly. That's the problem. It feels like the elements that aren't predictable endgame are just rushed through in order to get to that final fight. And of course that's the most important thing: defeating Piccolo. But it's a tournament too, and the rest of the tournament shouldn't feel like an afterthought in its own arc.

Now I find it funny that Piccolo listen to the rules. But this comes in the fact that Piccolo is not the same as his father. It also shows that Piccolo is an honorable fighter and shows DB humor. "The big bad still listen to the rules LOL". I mean DB isn't the first nor last to do this. It's actually pretty common that villain listen to silly rules.

Personally, I think you're reaching with this one. Instilling your own interpretation. I agree. A villain who obeys a tournament's rules to the detriment of his own evil plan, just for the sake of fair play, could be hilarious. But that's not what happens here, though. Nothing Piccolo does is played for humor. Outside of his fight with Kuririn, where he worries he killed him, he never displays any tendency to go out of his way to obey the rules. There's no joke there. No character traits being displayed. He just *happens* to always stay in the ring until he loses. And the only reason it happens that way is because the story needs it to, because it wouldn't be satisfying if Goku didn't win the match properly.

Why didn't Piccolo restart the fight when BOTH was healed 100%?. Because the results would be the same and Piccolo knew this. Hence why he swore revenge and he will be back. It would make zero sense to restart the fight unless you want Piccolo to be an total idiot. Goku is also a very talented fighter who outsmarted Jackie Chan and Ten.

I don't know why you'd assume that. It wasn't exactly a curb stomp. Goku only BARELY managed to win. If Ma Junior had adjusted his strategy, now fully knowing what Goku was capable of, there's no reason to think he couldn't have won. And, yes, that's ignoring a certain retroactively-induced development into Goku's physiology...

[Kid Buu]

By the way, do you think if Tenshinhan didnt save everyone with that square hole that everyone would die...including Kami?

[Gaffer Tape]

Ooooh, that's a good point. A very, very good point. It certainly would have been worth mentioning to Ma Junior.

[RandomGuy96]

Kami was probably strong enough to survive. if Piccolo could survive being about that far away from Fat Buu's similar attack, I don't see Kami having much of a problem.

[coola]

When things aren't going too well for villains, they tend to throw tantrum, without thinking it might kill them as well, Vegeta later did that too, when he tried blow Earth up. This arc also made Yajirobe very smart, not only did he immediately find out that Shen is more than meets the eye, but he also hide in hole, until he made sure it is safe.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: RandomGuy96

Maybe, but Ma Junior was trying to kill Goku with that blast, so if he believed it would kill him, he should have believed it would kill God. Since it didn't kill Goku, yeah, maybe it wouldn't have. But would Ma Junior have taken that chance?

[RandomGuy96]

RE: RandomGuy96

Maybe, but Ma Junior was trying to kill Goku with that blast, so if he believed it would kill him, he should have believed it would kill God. Since it didn't kill Goku, yeah, maybe it wouldn't have. But would Ma Junior have taken that chance?

Except Goku was standing five feet in front of Piccolo when he fired it off, while Kami was a good distance away.

[Gaffer Tape]

DBD: The 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc Part 4!

Dragon Ball Dissection December comes to a close, and I literally had to keep a bag of ice under my computer in order to finish it. Anyway, thanks to everyone for watching. Please let me know what you think. The arc is finished now, so now you can rail on me for everything I "forgot" or am clearly wrong about. I look forward to the debates.

[TheGmGoken]

Can't wait to watch(it's 2 of my sister's bday. I'll be a day late). I thought last episode was the end... silly Goken.

When I watch this our discussion will continue

[FlpShimizu]

I was surprised this wasn't number 9. Still, Z isn't your favorite part of the series, right? I wonder which arc is gonna get the 9th spot.

Your dissection is absolutely awesome and I wait for it the same way I waited to watch a new Dragon Ball episode when I was a kid. You should be proud of yourself, congratulations!

PS: Your comment about the art at the end of the video was amusing, you should do it more often

[Kid Buu]

I just think Goku was just being more selfish, and his negative traits got worse and worse every arc.

Doesn't Lunch appear in the Namek arc?

The Bulma scene is probably just there to comment on how much Goku has grown physically, since she has known him the longest.

Also *in Tuxedo Kamen voice* Happy New Year! Oh and congrats on 100 videos.

[Gaffer Tape]

Doesn't Lunch appear in the Namek arc?

There's that little bonus Christmas page (and she appears in a title page during the Saiyan arc), but nothing in the actual series itself.

[MarCas92]

The Bulma scene is probably just there to comment on how much Goku has grown physically, since she has known him the longest.

I honestly think that's it. And that should be it. But there's a little tidbit during the Namek Arc where she says something implying there's more to it.

[Kid Buu]

Didn't he draw her for the Genki Dama but changed her to Seventeen because he thought that fans wouldn't remember her?

It was also Toriyama's idea for her to appear in the anime for the Saiyan Arc.

[TheGmGoken]

I thought you said you were going to wait until the end?

It's over now. Time for round 6.5 in our discussion. . If you don't mind. I'm going to do this via number format. Looks cleaner IMO. Looking forward to your response. As you're my favorite person to debate with. Which is funny since our opinions are completely opposite. Yet I don't get annoyed talking about it with you. You kinda bring out the best in me. Onto the discussion. Here's my list so far compared to yours.

10. Piccolo Daimao Arc
9.
8. 23rd Budokai Arc
7. 21st Tenkaichi Budokai
6.
5.
4. Hunt For the Dbs Arc
3. 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai(Only good for Krillin's death and Goku vs Krillin)
2.
1. Red Ribbon Army Arc

It's almost a reverse version of yours. Quite interesting. Onto the quotes which are both from this video and the one before it. Keep in mind that I had written this yesterday but I was so drunk from my gf's New Years party that it probably made no sense...so I rewrote this(I fell asleep on this thread)

1. I certainly wouldn't agree that predictability makes it good. Nor am I saying that predictability is necessarily bad. In all of Dragon Ball, the outcome is predictable: good triumphs over evil. That's pretty damned predictable. But that's not what makes it bad. In that same spiel I even say that, that it's the journey not the destination. However, the journey is predictable too. And not just predictable but painfully aware of its predictability. That it really only WANTS Goku, Ma, and Shen to be around, but, oh, we have five other slots to fill up as well. Well, let's just get it over with quickly. That's the problem. It feels like the elements that aren't predictable endgame are just rushed through in order to get to that final fight. And of course that's the most important thing: defeating Piccolo. But it's a tournament too, and the rest of the tournament shouldn't feel like an afterthought in its own arc.

2. Personally, I think you're reaching with this one. Instilling your own interpretation. I agree. A villain who obeys a tournament's rules to the detriment of his own evil plan, just for the sake of fair play, could be hilarious. But that's not what happens here, though. Nothing Piccolo does is played for humor. Outside of his fight with Kuririn, where he worries he killed him, he never displays any tendency to go out of his way to obey the rules. There's no joke there. No character traits being displayed. He just *happens* to always stay in the ring until he loses. And the only reason it happens that way is because the story needs it to, because it wouldn't be satisfying if Goku didn't win the match properly.

3. I don't know why you'd assume that. It wasn't exactly a curb stomp. Goku only BARELY managed to win. If Ma Junior had adjusted his strategy, now fully knowing what Goku was capable of, there's no reason to think he couldn't have won. And, yes, that's ignoring a certain retroactively-induced development into Goku's physiology...

4. *Insert Rant on Kami's/God's job

5. Character usage

6. Anti Climatic ending

1. There was no need for this to NOT be predictable. Both the journey, the destination, and even how everything is setup. You said it yourself. This felt like the end. Even though it wasn't. But it could be called the end of a era. Had the journey not been predictable. I believe this arc would have lost what made it special and would't have been nearly as good. The story wrote itself. It flowed nicely. No need for anything new. Give the fans what they want and already know what's going to happen. Goku vs Piccolo. Ending with Goku finally winning the Tenkaichi Budokai. Some are the best stories are predictable all the way through. Some of the worst stories are bad BECAUSE they try and be predictable. I highly disagree about how things were rushed and how the Tenkaichi Budokai was the background. Here's why. You said the Ten vs. Tao Pai Pai was rushed. I have to say that you're missing of what I THINK(we have different interpretations) Toriyama was showing. It's that Ten's past will always haunt him. He saw Crane Hermit. Someone who he looked up too at one point. He then had to battle Tao Pai Pai. Someone else from his past. Lastly he received a scar to always remind him of his past actions. Even so much that he had to leave the Tenkaichi for a short time. To me that wasn't rushed at all. It shows that Ten no matter what will always be haunted by his past. One might even say it's a punishment for his past actions. Yamcha played his usual role in Tenkaichi Budokai(Which was never that impressive anyways). Krillin show improvement in his fighting capabilities. Before his fighting was very sloppy. Now he can hold his own and knows when to quit.

Lastly the Tenkaichi Budokai. It was not the background of it's own arc(I thought it was the Piccolo Jr Arc anyways....). Just look at Goku's reaction when he finally won. He beats Piccolo and is not worried about if Piccolo is KOed or even dead. The first thing he did was "Mr.Annoucer......Piccolo is out the ring..right?"....."Did...I win?". Then everyone gets so happy that Goku won. It's as if Piccolo is an afterthought. Goku tells Krillin that he's the CHAMPION. Then as soon as he gets back to 100%. He leaps into the air and screams "I AM THE WORLD CHAMPION". There's is no way that the Tenkaichi Budokai was an after thought. No possible way IMO.

2. Maybe it's because of those weird Korean shows I've watch, my anime choices, and even certain comic books. So maaaaaaaaybe I'm just saying this because I'm so used to it being that way. I'm used to the bad guy fighting dirty almost always. But when it's the final battle, a tournament, or even a big event the big bad fights clean until the end. Had Piccolo just stepped out of the ring to fight Goku without restrictions..would't that have made the Tenkaichi Budokai irrelevant? Something you said was a con in this arc. I also believe this plays into Piccolo's future. How he was never 100% like his dad. How he wasn't completely evil but "programmed" for revenge. How he was more like a douchebag than a mass-murderer. It's kinda unique looking at it. Going from a Demon King to someone who follows the rules to someone who cares for his rival's chid. The anime goes into more detail with this but since this is manga only. I won't bring up the anime. However I'll say that this minor that actually helps show how much Piccolo has change. Kami/God even mentions it in the next arc.

Spoiler:

How Raditz didn't go to the demon realm after-death. Showing he's not a demon no more. This was before his character even interacted with Gohan

It is also quite humorous. Shouting "WORLD DOMINATION" while playing by the rules.

3. It wasn't one sided that's for sure. I admit. But it was clear that Goku was in control for most of the fight. Always one step ahead of him. You're also speaking as if Goku could't adjust his game-plan too after seeing what Piccolo can do. Now knowing what PICCOLO is capable of. It's almost certain Goku would have won. See it'll still be quite the even fight. However Goku was not only the better fighter..BUT the smarter person as well. Goku lacks human common sense. He does not lack fighting common sense. He's acutally a genius at it. Also the last part of your comment about Goku's physiology. What do you mean by that?

4. 100% agree with you about your rant on Kami in Dragonball. Except my issue with Kami/God goes for all anime and comics.

5. Please explain more about character usage. You made a small comment on it. Something along the lines of "Yamcha and Krillin roles is more like a preview of how they will be used in the future". I forgot. My apologies. Because I've been very vocal about the usage of characters in DB. How it's underrated and people tend to have selective memory. So if possible can you explain more in depth what you meant by the usage of characters? One thing I'll point out though. Despite my extreme dislike for Ten. It was kinda weird how Krillin kinda took Ten's spot as Second in Command(I rank Krillin above both Vegeta and Piccolo. Unless it's Boo Arc or later). Yes Krillin's the better character and it was wise of Toriyama to switch their places. But quite odd I admit. About Puar, Chazou, and Oolong. I don't think you mentioned Oolong actually. But as the series went on(From the very first arc) their roles went down. It wasn't just this arc or the "Z" era. They was already becoming useless. Their tricks work for only extremely gag moments like the first arc or even Battle of Gods extended edition. These types of characters don't last long. Chazou's fighting style and character isn't meant for Dragonball or even most manga/anime. He serves better in shows like Shiki. Chazou is just not an interesting character and Toriyama knew this most likely.

6. This isn't apart of the debate but. Do you think Krillin should had debut his Energy Disk(I'm calling it's Korean name. Kiezen is the manga name correct?) here instead of Saiyan Arc? Or it doesn't matter?
----------

Looking for to your replies. You're by far the most interesting person to discuss DB with. Until next time Gaffer.

[Gaffer Tape]

Alright. This is gonna be fun.

1. This is why I say this story doesn't work with the tournament format. Yes, the story demanded Goku and Ma Junior to have a showdown. That's fine. But the fun of the tournament arcs, at least for me, are in seeing fighters whittled down one by one and see who's left standing. That's what makes it fun and distinct from arcs where there is just a straight villain to be thwarted. The first tournament was definitely the best in this regard. You had no idea going in that the final match would be Goku versus Jackie Chun. Goku, probably. His opponent? No clue. There were so many unknown characters, any of whom could have any number of fun skills that could put Goku to the test. The second tournament... yeah, from the conclusion of the first match, it was pretty obvious that it would be Goku versus Tenshinhan, but it still wasn't as obvious as it was here. Again, predictability isn't bad in general, but it saps the uniqueness out of tournaments and makes everything else feel completely pointless. Why are we even watching Tenshinhan and Tao Pai Pai fight when we know for a fact neither of them is going to accomplish anything?

Case in point: there is no other part in the series that shows an entire tournament when only one match of it means anything. Think of the preliminaries. There could sure be some interesting fights there... but we don't see most of them because it's a foregone conclusion that the main characters (or most of them) are going to make it through. We certainly aren't shown any matches between random-Jackie-Chan-lookalike 7 and Big Bear Dude. Second example: the 25th Budoukai Junior Division. It's established from the outset that Goten and Trunks are most definitely going to fight in the final match... so aside from one sample match with each of them, that's pretty much all we see. We don't waste time watching a bunch of pointless fights when only the last one means anything.

So that's why I say this doesn't fit the format because either you show all this stuff that has no bearing on the plot, or you cut all of it out and lose the focus on the tournament.

2. I feel like I've already said this before (but am too lazy to check), but it never comes across to me like Ma Junior is trying to follow the rules or trying to break the rules. He's simply having a fight. It just so *happens* that he never breaks any rules. He never falls out of the ring, even as Goku tosses his giant form over his shoulder (so obviously Ma Junior would have no control over that). The ring is still visible, even when Ma Junior destroys absolutely everything. It all just starts to feel contrived after awhile.

3. I had a feeling someone was going to come in here screaming "ZENKAI!" Ugh. Hate that fan-made term. Anyway, I've heard people say before that the reason Ma Junior didn't start the fight again is because Goku recovered from a near-death injury and would have been a lot stronger. And he could tell that, so that's why he flew away. Well, it certainly does make sense. I'll give it that. But since the concept hadn't been invented yet, that couldn't have been the reason, so I'm ignoring it.

5. I said that, because this is basically the second arc in a row in which neither character has gotten to do anything useful that it could very easily appear that Toriyama was phasing them out in favor of newer characters.

6. I don't think it would have made any difference one way or the other, but I think the Kienzan is better suited for a life-or-death battle. It's a killing attack. Period. It has no place in a tournament.

[rereboy]

Completely disagree with it being pointless. They were all interesting and entertaining fights by themselves, and they were all used to develop and give screen time to the characters in it, which is all they need for being relevant and have a point.

That is precisely the trap that Dragon Ball later fell on. Its noticeable that Dragon Ball gradually started to focus just on the strongest guys around and it only gave screen time and any development to them. Because of this, the series loses a great deal of detail and some much needed "breather space" for fights and whatnot that don't focus just on THE STRONGEST, and characters that we enjoy seeing get stuck just being truly irrelevant extras.

The 23rd tournament is a good example of how Dragon Ball could have evolved, not necessarily with just tournaments, obviously, but with a good balance between good and entertaining fights and whatnot that give screen time and development to characters with multiple purposes other than just "the strongest", and fights focused on "the strongest". This characteristic is not yet lost in the Saiyan arc given the roles that pretty much all cast had but on later Namek and after Namek it is pretty much lost.

Btw, your example/argument regarding the preliminaries is flawed because those fights generally weren't used or intended to give screen time or develop characters, they were just there as visual info telling us that they passed the preliminaries without trouble. When they were used to something more than that, like when Goku fought King Chappa, they weren't unlike the actual tournament fights, they just ended faster because one of the objectives was always to show how much they had grown, which involved them overwhelming the opponent.