"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Being creative on a deadline in general is not a "normal" job. Especially not when you're responsible for literally every component of a serialized work on a weekly basis -- plotting, new character designs, scripting, drawing, etc. That's on top of additional projects; sometimes a second manga.*

That's such a taxing rhythm I'm amazed all Shonen Jump authors don't collapse. Let alone someone who usually had a few balls in the air like Toriyama.

To put things in perspective, the U.S. comic industry typically allocates a month for ~twenty-two pages, and while there's often color and more complex art, all aspects of the work mentioned above tend to be allocated between different people. When they aren't, there's an irregular schedule.

*I know there are assistants involved, but they typically just help ink, apply screen tones, etc. Not so much a substantial reduction of work as they are what make it remotely feasible in the first place.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama was more than capable of drawing good backgrounds, he just gives up on doing so about the time Goku fights Piccolo in the tournament. I'd also say Toyotaro draws characters consistently well too whereas Toriyama gets REALLY rough and downright lazy with them during the Boo Saga. So yeah, Toriyama is an overall better artist I think but Toyotaro has him beaten in certain areas.

Well, Toyotaro has a month to draw, Toriyama had a week. If you compare Super's art to tVictory Mission's art, you'll see it's completely different.

Not to mention Toriyama would spend most of the week he had to draw the manga watching TV or crafting model planes. So in reality, Toriyama pulled it off in 2-3 days.

Source? Because from what I recall, he barely had any time to sleep.

[Lord Beerus]

Source? Because from what I recall, he barely had any time to sleep.

From TV Anime Guide - Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu:

Toriyama:
From the very beginning, I was drawing Dragon Ball going, “I don’t wanna,” (laughs), so I spent my time building plastic models and such until almost right up to the deadline, during the serialization. By the time I got down to work on the storyboards, it was already two days before the deadline, or thereabouts.
Nakatsuru:
What? The storyboard?

Toriyama:
I’d start at around midnight, finish up the storyboard around 6 in the morning, then spend until the evening of the next day inking everything… so I probably finished up everything in about a day and a half.

Nakatsuru:
Every week, you’d do your manuscript in a day and a half? But that’s incredibly fast!

Toriyama:
Well, it was telling a story, so it was pretty easy.

Nakatsuru:
You used to fax your storyboards in to Toei Animation, didn’t you, Sensei? — The ones that were almost entirely rough drafts. Were those the storyboards you’d drawn in six hours?

Toriyama:
That’s right. I always had the storyboards do double-duty as the rough drafts, because they’re such a pain to draw. (laughs)

Nakatsuru:
It’s amazing that you were able to do that in just six hours…

Toriyama:
When a new character would appear, or something like that, it would take a little bit more time, but once the design concepts and the story were decided, it was about a day and a half.

[TheMikado]

It doesn't work like that. Being a manga artist is not a "normal" job. These people barely get any sleep at all. You're saying it yourself, you don't how it works.

The statement above this literally tell us how it works, he did a weeks worth of work in a day and a half. Out of his own mouth he literally says he didn't want to do his work so he would wait until very late to start the storyboards.
Again no pretending to say how it works but the guy literal says I didn't want to work so I goofed off time the last minute and manages to pull it off and we go ahead and praise him for it. It doesn't take anything away from his talent to admit, by his own admission, that maybe he wasnt as dedicated or dilligent to the craft as he should be.. The fan worship where he's above reproach or even having typical human character traits is disgusting. You do more to disrespect the man by claiming he's some flawless messiah then to acknowledge he's a guy who probably didn't want to do his work sometimes and maybe didn't put his best into the series all the time. Hopefully acknowledging that won't cause anyone to go into cardiac arrest here.

[Cipher]

I don't think Toriyama's a flawless messiah, but I do think he shouldn't be drawn.

[Drayenko]

You do more to disrespect the man by claiming he's some flawless messiah

I did that, never.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

You're welcome to start a topic about whether Toriyama is lazy or not if you want to pursue that discussion further, but let's try to keep the conversation here about Toyotaro's manga adaptation.

[TheMikado]

I agree, however I believe it was on the context of stating that Toyotaro has it easy compared to Toroyama which may be true in terms of schedule, however we have no idea how much time and effort Toyotaro puts into his craft until he says otherwise so belittling his contributions makes little sense as artistically he could be pouring hundreds of hours each month into he work and more than Toriyama and we just don't know.

[SquadronGOD]

Well after the latest episode of Super, I can't wait for the next chapter in the manga. Hopefully it shows vegeta beating the hell out of trunks and healing him and repeating the process...

[Noah]

Now with the new chapter I think things might will play this way:

Goku vs. Frost = Goku loses but Frost is worn out
Piccolo vs. Frost = Frost finger flicks
Vegeta vs. Frost = Vegeta beats a weakened Frost
Vegeta vs. Magetta = Vegeta wins easily
Vegeta vs. Cabba = Vegeta wins with medium difficulty
Vegeta vs. Hit = Vegeta is beated to a pulp
Monaka vs. Hit = Monaka loses horribly

4 matches for vegeta? That's overkill. 4 "continuous" matches for vegeta, , unbearable.

Funny thing about reading old posts are that actually happened

[MCDaveG]

Source? Because from what I recall, he barely had any time to sleep.

From TV Anime Guide - Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu:

Toriyama:
From the very beginning, I was drawing Dragon Ball going, “I don’t wanna,” (laughs), so I spent my time building plastic models and such until almost right up to the deadline, during the serialization. By the time I got down to work on the storyboards, it was already two days before the deadline, or thereabouts.
Nakatsuru:
What? The storyboard?

Toriyama:
I’d start at around midnight, finish up the storyboard around 6 in the morning, then spend until the evening of the next day inking everything… so I probably finished up everything in about a day and a half.

Nakatsuru:
Every week, you’d do your manuscript in a day and a half? But that’s incredibly fast!

Toriyama:
Well, it was telling a story, so it was pretty easy.

Nakatsuru:
You used to fax your storyboards in to Toei Animation, didn’t you, Sensei? — The ones that were almost entirely rough drafts. Were those the storyboards you’d drawn in six hours?

Toriyama:
That’s right. I always had the storyboards do double-duty as the rough drafts, because they’re such a pain to draw. (laughs)

Nakatsuru:
It’s amazing that you were able to do that in just six hours…

Toriyama:
When a new character would appear, or something like that, it would take a little bit more time, but once the design concepts and the story were decided, it was about a day and a half.

I wonder sometimes, if I am reincarnated Toriyama, because that's how I work Also, his behaviour is kind of unusual in Japanese person.

[dbzfan7]

Source? Because from what I recall, he barely had any time to sleep.

From TV Anime Guide - Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu:

Toriyama:
From the very beginning, I was drawing Dragon Ball going, “I don’t wanna,” (laughs), so I spent my time building plastic models and such until almost right up to the deadline, during the serialization. By the time I got down to work on the storyboards, it was already two days before the deadline, or thereabouts.
Nakatsuru:
What? The storyboard?

Toriyama:
I’d start at around midnight, finish up the storyboard around 6 in the morning, then spend until the evening of the next day inking everything… so I probably finished up everything in about a day and a half.

Nakatsuru:
Every week, you’d do your manuscript in a day and a half? But that’s incredibly fast!

Toriyama:
Well, it was telling a story, so it was pretty easy.

Nakatsuru:
You used to fax your storyboards in to Toei Animation, didn’t you, Sensei? — The ones that were almost entirely rough drafts. Were those the storyboards you’d drawn in six hours?

Toriyama:
That’s right. I always had the storyboards do double-duty as the rough drafts, because they’re such a pain to draw. (laughs)

Nakatsuru:
It’s amazing that you were able to do that in just six hours…

Toriyama:
When a new character would appear, or something like that, it would take a little bit more time, but once the design concepts and the story were decided, it was about a day and a half.

I wonder sometimes, if I am reincarnated Toriyama, because that's how I work Also, his behaviour is kind of unusual in Japanese person.

That far more fits what I thought of Toriyama, than what other people were saying. The man is a legend for coming up with and accomplishing so much in such a short amount of time. I want to legendarily procrastinate and do that. Not even insulting him, that's literally just awesome.

[MCDaveG]

That far more fits what I thought of Toriyama, than what other people were saying. The man is a legend for coming up with and accomplishing so much in such a short amount of time. I want to legendarily procrastinate and do that. Not even insulting him, that's literally just awesome.

He's pretty average Japanese-minded with his wife tough, whom gave up on drawing the manga herself and is a housewife. But who knows, how their relationship is.
You can't say that is a bad thing for various reasons.

But how he works is definitely one of the things behind the magic of Dragon Ball. I think that it is one of the reasons why the fights are like that. Battle with Freeza in manga is my favorite and I love how it is a huge ride with changing strategies and in the end, it is pretty easy and straightforward story.
For example, one of the main reasons that I stopped watching One Piece and didn't even bother with manga is how thought up and long the plots are. Each arc is like one series itself. I really liked it at first, but after 500+ episodes, I just went: ''I don't have time for this...''
Yeah, and I also hated that princess on Fishermen's Island story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Source? Because from what I recall, he barely had any time to sleep.

From TV Anime Guide - Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu:

Toriyama:
From the very beginning, I was drawing Dragon Ball going, “I don’t wanna,” (laughs), so I spent my time building plastic models and such until almost right up to the deadline, during the serialization. By the time I got down to work on the storyboards, it was already two days before the deadline, or thereabouts.
Nakatsuru:
What? The storyboard?

Toriyama:
I’d start at around midnight, finish up the storyboard around 6 in the morning, then spend until the evening of the next day inking everything… so I probably finished up everything in about a day and a half.

Nakatsuru:
Every week, you’d do your manuscript in a day and a half? But that’s incredibly fast!

Toriyama:
Well, it was telling a story, so it was pretty easy.

Nakatsuru:
You used to fax your storyboards in to Toei Animation, didn’t you, Sensei? — The ones that were almost entirely rough drafts. Were those the storyboards you’d drawn in six hours?

Toriyama:
That’s right. I always had the storyboards do double-duty as the rough drafts, because they’re such a pain to draw. (laughs)

Nakatsuru:
It’s amazing that you were able to do that in just six hours…

Toriyama:
When a new character would appear, or something like that, it would take a little bit more time, but once the design concepts and the story were decided, it was about a day and a half.

So that's why he didn't sleep.

[Lord Beerus]

Source? Because from what I recall, he barely had any time to sleep.

From TV Anime Guide - Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu:

Toriyama:
From the very beginning, I was drawing Dragon Ball going, “I don’t wanna,” (laughs), so I spent my time building plastic models and such until almost right up to the deadline, during the serialization. By the time I got down to work on the storyboards, it was already two days before the deadline, or thereabouts.
Nakatsuru:
What? The storyboard?

Toriyama:
I’d start at around midnight, finish up the storyboard around 6 in the morning, then spend until the evening of the next day inking everything… so I probably finished up everything in about a day and a half.

Nakatsuru:
Every week, you’d do your manuscript in a day and a half? But that’s incredibly fast!

Toriyama:
Well, it was telling a story, so it was pretty easy.

Nakatsuru:
You used to fax your storyboards in to Toei Animation, didn’t you, Sensei? — The ones that were almost entirely rough drafts. Were those the storyboards you’d drawn in six hours?

Toriyama:
That’s right. I always had the storyboards do double-duty as the rough drafts, because they’re such a pain to draw. (laughs)

Nakatsuru:
It’s amazing that you were able to do that in just six hours…

Toriyama:
When a new character would appear, or something like that, it would take a little bit more time, but once the design concepts and the story were decided, it was about a day and a half.

So that's why he didn't sleep.

Toriyama is seriously the greatest procrastinator ever.

[apex_pretador]

Now with the new chapter I think things might will play this way:

Goku vs. Frost = Goku loses but Frost is worn out
Piccolo vs. Frost = Frost finger flicks
Vegeta vs. Frost = Vegeta beats a weakened Frost
Vegeta vs. Magetta = Vegeta wins easily
Vegeta vs. Cabba = Vegeta wins with medium difficulty
Vegeta vs. Hit = Vegeta is beated to a pulp
Monaka vs. Hit = Monaka loses horribly

4 matches for vegeta? That's overkill. 4 "continuous" matches for vegeta, , unbearable.

Funny thing about reading old posts are that actually happened

Interesting that most were correct except frost vs piccolo one.

[Noah]

Interesting that most were correct except frost vs piccolo one.

And Monaka of course

[alakazam^]

I agree, however I believe it was on the context of stating that Toyotaro has it easy compared to Toroyama which may be true in terms of schedule, however we have no idea how much time and effort Toyotaro puts into his craft until he says otherwise so belittling his contributions makes little sense as artistically he could be pouring hundreds of hours each month into he work and more than Toriyama and we just don't know.

How is that relevant when what matters is the final product? In fact, by that logic, it actually works against Toyotarou. But, if I remember correctly, that wasn't even the discussion at hand, people were saying that Toriyama is overall more skilled than him.

[TheMikado]

I agree, however I believe it was on the context of stating that Toyotaro has it easy compared to Toroyama which may be true in terms of schedule, however we have no idea how much time and effort Toyotaro puts into his craft until he says otherwise so belittling his contributions makes little sense as artistically he could be pouring hundreds of hours each month into he work and more than Toriyama and we just don't know.

How is that relevant when what matters is the final product? In fact, by that logic, it actually works against Toyotarou. But, if I remember correctly, that wasn't even the discussion at hand, people were saying that Toriyama is overall more skilled than him.

I'm not sure if you actually read my entry into the conversation or are just reacting. My original comment was in response to showing that Toriyama tended to procrastinate to very late. My comment was that I failed to see how it dispelled the narrative of Toriyama being lazy and it didn't. That said, claiming that Toriyama is a better/ more disiplined artist is also a fallacy we we don't know the time Toyotarou puts into his craft and honing his skills. All I'm saying is that trying to glean anything about the capabilities of either artist based on the frequency of their publications is a ridiculous proposition. If I make a million works of art under a tight schedule does that make me better than Michelangelo? That's NOT how artistic creation works. My specific thing that I did say is that NOT actively honing your skills of working to your craft which your are actively paid on a schedule to do, Could be considered lazy. Especially compared to other industries or even possibly within that industry compared to other artists.

None of what I said demeans produced work other than its possible that Toriyama might have been able to produce better work if he were more disciplined. That's it. Nothing more. Oh I also said we don't know Toyotaro work ethic or dedication to his work and craft.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I agree, however I believe it was on the context of stating that Toyotaro has it easy compared to Toroyama which may be true in terms of schedule, however we have no idea how much time and effort Toyotaro puts into his craft until he says otherwise so belittling his contributions makes little sense as artistically he could be pouring hundreds of hours each month into he work and more than Toriyama and we just don't know.

How is that relevant when what matters is the final product? In fact, by that logic, it actually works against Toyotarou. But, if I remember correctly, that wasn't even the discussion at hand, people were saying that Toriyama is overall more skilled than him.

I'm not sure if you actually read my entry into the conversation or are just reacting. My original comment was in response to showing that Toriyama tended to procrastinate to very late. My comment was that I failed to see how it dispelled the narrative of Toriyama being lazy and it didn't. That said, claiming that Toriyama is a better/ more disiplined artist is also a fallacy we we don't know the time Toyotarou puts into his craft and honing his skills. All I'm saying is that trying to glean anything about the capabilities of either artist based on the frequency of their publications is a ridiculous proposition. If I make a million works of art under a tight schedule does that make me better than Michelangelo? That's NOT how artistic creation works. My specific thing that I did say is that NOT actively honing your skills of working to your craft which your are actively paid on a schedule to do, Could be considered lazy. Especially compared to other industries or even possibly within that industry compared to other artists.

None of what I said demeans produced work other than its possible that Toriyama might have been able to produce better work if he were more disciplined. That's it. Nothing more. Oh I also said we don't know Toyotaro work ethic or dedication to his work and craft.

WHat is wrong with being lazy if you are good enough and why practice if you don't need it? Some people need to practice to achieve new heights, some are just extremely talented.

That said I don't find Toyotarou to be talented even in the slightest bit. If it wasnt DB related I'd basically look at his style and never pick up his work again. In this I don't just mean art I means story telling as well.