Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Again, why would Toriyama change his mind when he clearly wrote in his own script that base form Goku is stronger than a stronger than ever true form Freeza. Why is it automatically assumed that Toyotarou is the one right on the power scaling?

Because it's not just Toyotarou. The anime also seems to have been written this way since the Universe 6 arc, especially as of the last few episodes, with the sole exception of the Copy Vegeta-Gotenks "filler" fight.

While there are ways of making everything in the anime line up with the first two arcs/movies -- and I've argued some of them here, because I still find them less ridiculous than an intentional, unstated "two-base" mechanic -- they've become increasingly slipshod and require either massive, unstated increases, or characters barely trying, despite transforming (and even then, the Trunks arc stuff barely lines up). Everything suddenly clicks right into place if you assume there was a badly implemented change that Toyotarou managed to avoid.

Toyotarou had done his own thing several times which Toriyama encouraged, and the anime has repeatedly shown that Goku's base form is Super Saiyan God or a little weaker. And I don't see how the Trunks stuff didn't line up. Goku didn't try against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. He just blocked his attack, caught his fists, went Super Saiyan 3, and one-shotted him.

Finally, every single source from video games and supplemental material says that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God. It is literally only the Super manga that has Goku not absorbed Super Saiyan God and use it as a separate form. Even Toyotarou's take on Resurrection 'F' has Goku absorb Super Saiyan God and Goku fight Frieza in his base form.

[Cipher]

Toyotarou had done his own thing several times which Toriyama encouraged, and the anime has repeatedly shown that Goku's base form is Super Saiyan God or a little weaker. And I don't see how the Trunks stuff didn't line up. Goku didn't try against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. He just blocked his attack, caught his fists, went Super Saiyan 3, and one-shotted him.

Finally, every single source from video games and supplemental material says that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God. It is literally only the Super manga that has Goku not absorbed Super Saiyan God and use it as a separate form.

I'm aware Toyotarou has liberties with the manga -- he's reintroduced Super Saiyan God as a usable form when the anime doesn't seem intent on doing that.

That said, the following is the bit in the Trunks arc that makes me believe the plot outlines are being written with the same general stance on relative power the manga has made more explicit (and that differ from what the movies and earlier arcs imply):

When Goku is sparring against Trunks, it's completely plausible he's using both Super Saiyan 2 and 3 for show, and greatly holding back. He has motivation to do so. When he fights Black, however, and is more or less even as Super Saiyan 2 (he asks Black to use his "full power," hinting that Black isn't going all out), Trunks comments that Goku "showed more power than this when we were fighting," which seems to reference his use of Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku's Super Saiyan 2 against both Black and Trunks is equivalent, Goku would also be wildly holding back against Black. And ... transforming, for some reason. You could say he's still doing it for Trunks' sake, but that's like ... man, that's really weird. And then Zamasu, who he also transforms into Super Saiyan 2 to fight, would be insanely strong. Or Goku just loves using a fraction of his full power and transforming into Super Saiyan 2 for aesthetic reasons.

However, if you assume Super Saiyan 2 Goku is only as strong as he was during the series' original run, suddenly everything clicks without tenuous explanations. Goku really is in the same general range as Trunks until he uses Super Saiyan 3. Zamasu would be much stronger than Universe 7's Kaioshin, but not so much so that he could have taken Goku's place in the Battle of Gods arc. Goku really is giving his all against Black in that form as he baits his opponent to try harder.

The other explanations are the long-debated "two-base theory" -- which I find way more more ludicrous than the idea that the general approach changed around the point of the Universe 6 tournament, and that Toyotarou, as a single author and fan, was more capable of clarifying it -- or that Trunks and Zamasu are both Super Saiyan God-tier, which I also find insane as an unstated element.

I'm sure I'll be roasted in this thread because this explanation isn't strictly in-universe and involves speculation on the series' production, but god damn if it isn't the cleanest explanation for all the wonky strength stuff so far.

Even Toyotarou's take on Resurrection 'F' has Goku absorb Super Saiyan God and Goku fight Frieza in his base form.

That was a straight movie adaptation written and released prior to Super's announcement. It's never been connected to the current manga series in any way (even in tankoubon releases). I'm speculating that this change in general approach took place during the writing of the Universe 6 arc. Which, coincidentally, was the fist new material written for serialization and stood to benefit greatly from a quiet powering down.

[Bullza]

Don't forget that Trunks was also holding back when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku. It wasn't until Goku turned SSJ3 that Trunks took out his sword and said he'd use his max power which then led to Bulma's bubble thing exploding and Beerus saying he was pretty good.

So that seems to be the equivalent of Trunks powering up a second time as SSJ2 in the manga, though in that version it was Vegeta who commented on his power and he was supposed to be equal to Goku but the general idea is still there.

In fact it wouldn't surprise if in the anime SSJ2 Trunks was actually stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

[Cipher]

In fact it wouldn't surprise if in the anime SSJ2 Trunks was actually stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

Maybe by a bit, but I think the moment to imply he approaches Super Saiyan 3 Goku's level has come and gone.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being that strong reads like a Toyotarou addition, but a plausible one, and nice on on the grounds that it gives Trunks a bit more credit and greatly helps clarify Black's threat for the reader. (Pretty ambiguous in the anime, but right off the bat we know he's likely much stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 in the manga.)

[Zephyr]

Possibly belongs as a single post within the Power Levels thread, but I think this is a narrow enough discussion to house its own thread. If I'm wrong, mods feel free to move it appropriately.

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Super shows us that you can be at one level of power as a Super Saiyan 3, and even stronger as a Super Saiyan 2, and even stronger than that in base. At least in Goku and Vegeta's case. Seems to make no sense, if Super Saiyan forms are strict multipliers. When the God form is mastered (or whatever equivalent Vegeta did), it seems the user is able to have power of maximal plot convenience (moreso than average), meaning multipliers no long apply. They can go to peak power, to peak raw measurable ki levels, regardless of form. Only now, they can access different forms, and take advantage of the differences they bring besides raw measurable ki output.

Different levels of Super Saiyan seem so to elicit some different levels of focus and adrenaline. Super Saiyan is somewhat more intense than Base, 2 moreso than 1, and 3 moreso than 2. Blue has perfect ki control but also with the stamina drawback. It would make sense to use different forms at different times, depending on how one wants to go into a fight. The raw measurable ki may be equal, but their ability to use it would be stimulated in different ways depending on the form. Sort of like different types of drugs, I guess. Caffeine, alcohol, etc. all effect people in different ways, by balancing focus and adrenaline in different ways.

Probably forgot one key detail or another, but that's what was running through my head. Thoughts?

[buutenks]

Latest thing in the anime, Vegeta struggles with 150 G. This means he is currently at best as strong as his Buu saga self, maybe slightly stronger.

So, can we all agree PL have been retconned and only ssj blue is god level?

[Bullza]

Yeah I don't think he's as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the anime. He seemed to put up a much better fight against Black who was supposed to be even stronger but maybe Black was just messing with him after all.

I don't see why SSJ2 Trunks couldn't be between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku though somewhat similar to the manga even though they appear to all be on a much higher level in the anime

Latest thing in the anime, Vegeta struggles with 150 G.

Where was that because that'd be contradictory with them doing 50,000 one finger push ups in a weighted suit that puts more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine.

[Beyond]

So Goku and Vegeta are only a bit stronger than buu arc levels in the manga? I guess that makes sense, but does that mean their bases are weaker than Frieza again? Because they seem to be on Piccolo's level give or take. I guess I'll go with not on Piccolo's level. For now I guess I'll go with something like:
[spoiler]Buu arc

Goku - 100
SSJ - 5,000
SSJ2 - 10,000
SS3 - 40,000

Vegeta - 100
SSJ - 5,000
SSJ2 - 10,000

Piccolo - 1,800

U6 arc

Goku - 120
SSJ - 6,000

Piccolo - 2,000

Frost 50
3rd form Frost 115-125
Final form: 5,000
Tired frost 2,500

Black arc
Goku 120
SSJ 6,000
SSJ2 12,000
SSJ3 48,000

Trunks 105
SSJ 5250
SSJ2 10,500
MSSJ2 47,500 (4.5x boost)[/spoiler]

I think this makes sense. If you believe base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo in the buu arc, things get messy again when dealing with frost. I don't think anyone here believe that anymore.

[Lionel]

Wait, so people are arriving at the conclusion that Trunks has ascended to a margin of power where he could potentially be stronger than the current SSJ2 Goku? If you take the fight with Copy-Vegeta into account then Trunks would -- by extension of having a similarly powerful Base state as Vegeta and Goku -- be strong enough to casually shrug off SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks like they're nothing. Factor in the Super Saiyan transformations and you have a character that is at least over 100x as strong as Gotenks; this would imply that Trunks could potentially be stronger than SSJ Vegetto, perhaps a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto as well if the margin between Gotenks and the current Base Saiyans were truly massive in scope. How does that make sense in light of the fact that Trunks has only himself to train with in a post-apocalyptic world? To go from trading blows with Cell Jr to vastly surpassing SSJ3 Gotenks over the span of what? 13 years? It seems far-fetched.

[Chiki]

Wait, so people are arriving at the conclusion that Trunks has ascended to a margin of power where he could potentially be stronger than the current SSJ2 Goku? If you take the fight with Copy-Vegeta into account then Trunks would -- by extension of having a similarly powerful Base state as Vegeta and Goku -- be strong enough to casually shrug off SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks like they're nothing. Factor in the Super Saiyan transformations and you have a character that is at least over 100x as strong as Gotenks; this would imply that Trunks could potentially be stronger than SSJ Vegetto, perhaps a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto as well if the margin between Gotenks and the current Base Saiyans were truly massive in scope. How does that make sense in light of the fact that Trunks has only himself to train with in a post-apocalyptic world? To go from trading blows with Cell Jr to vastly surpassing SSJ3 Gotenks over the span of what? 13 years? It seems far-fetched.

It doesn't make any sense, that's what we've been trying to tell Bullza for months but he never listened. This chapter confirms that Trunks is nowhere near SSG level in the manga. Trunks got effortlessly blitzed and one shot by SSG Goku.

What about the anime? There's no reason for Trunks to have reached SSG level in the anime either since whatever training he did in the anime he also did in the manga and in the manga he's around SSJ3 Goku level.

We need a two base theory, either intentional by the writers (unlikely) or unintentional (by accident due to the series having multiple writers with different ideas of Goku's level in Base). This is the only way to explain everything.

[TheMikado]

Wait, so people are arriving at the conclusion that Trunks has ascended to a margin of power where he could potentially be stronger than the current SSJ2 Goku? If you take the fight with Copy-Vegeta into account then Trunks would -- by extension of having a similarly powerful Base state as Vegeta and Goku -- be strong enough to casually shrug off SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks like they're nothing. Factor in the Super Saiyan transformations and you have a character that is at least over 100x as strong as Gotenks; this would imply that Trunks could potentially be stronger than SSJ Vegetto, perhaps a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto as well if the margin between Gotenks and the current Base Saiyans were truly massive in scope. How does that make sense in light of the fact that Trunks has only himself to train with in a post-apocalyptic world? To go from trading blows with Cell Jr to vastly surpassing SSJ3 Gotenks over the span of what? 13 years? It seems far-fetched.

No it's been concluded that the two base theory is true in the manga.

[TheMikado]

The other explanations are the long-debated "two-base theory" -- which I find way more more ludicrous than the idea that the general approach changed around the point of the Universe 6 tournament, and that Toyotarou, as a single author and fan, was more capable of clarifying it -- or that Trunks and Zamasu are both Super Saiyan God-tier, which I also find insane as an unstated element.

Part of the two base theory is that there should be a form where Goku is Using God Ki but not SSJ. In the manga this is SSG but in the anime it was theorized to be invisible but the power level was still presented, hence the "2nd base". The reason for it being this way in the anime has been speculated to be a production error, a retconned plot line, or simply no interest in showing that form.

[HeroR]

Yeah I don't think he's as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the anime. He seemed to put up a much better fight against Black who was supposed to be even stronger but maybe Black was just messing with him after all.

I don't see why SSJ2 Trunks couldn't be between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku though somewhat similar to the manga even though they appear to all be on a much higher level in the anime

Latest thing in the anime, Vegeta struggles with 150 G.

Where was that because that'd be contradictory with them doing 50,000 one finger push ups in a weighted suit that puts more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine.

The problem is that if Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in the anime was closed to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, then he should be able to sense god ki since he's in that upper level. He can't. He says that he can't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. The closest he feels is pressure, similar to Vegeta during the in-between episodes of the Resurrection 'F' Saga. So at best, he's only as strong as Vegeta then. Also, unlike the manga, Vegeta never says Trunks is a match for Goku and it's never presented that way since Goku didn't even try. He didn't even move except to catch Trunks' fists.

[Chiki]

Yeah I don't think he's as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the anime. He seemed to put up a much better fight against Black who was supposed to be even stronger but maybe Black was just messing with him after all.

I don't see why SSJ2 Trunks couldn't be between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku though somewhat similar to the manga even though they appear to all be on a much higher level in the anime

Latest thing in the anime, Vegeta struggles with 150 G.

Where was that because that'd be contradictory with them doing 50,000 one finger push ups in a weighted suit that puts more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine.

The problem is that if Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in the anime was closed to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, then he should be able to sense god ki since he's in that upper level. He can't. He says that he can't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. The closest he feels is pressure, similar to Vegeta during the in-between episodes of the Resurrection 'F' Saga. So at best, he's only as strong as Vegeta then. Also, unlike the manga, Vegeta never says Trunks is a match for Goku and it's never presented that way since Goku didn't even try. He didn't even move except to catch Trunks' fists.

Goku doing better against Trunks in the anime doesn't prove anything. Trunks's ridiculous strength in the manga is probably just a Toyotaro addition.

[buutenks]

I doubt Trunks is anywhere near god level. Especially since he isn't strong enough to sense god ki.

[TheMikado]

We're arguing over who added what to the story at this point.

In the anime Trunks is God tier because that's how they wrote it. Right are wrong, but he is weaker than the SSJ versions of Goku and Vegeta.

Basically, due to the way they wrote it in the anime everyone is above BoG SSG level.

In the manga EVERYONE is below SSG. I think even Hit was in terms of raw power. In this version Trunks SSJ levels are higher than Vegeta and Goku's normal levels. I'm actually much more ok with this version of events than the other scenario. In either case it's wildly different.

We don't know who added or changed what but the things we do know are:

Toriyama said a month before the Trunks arc AIRED that he hadn't seen the final anime script yet. This also likely means it had already be produced if not close to completed production.

Toriyama, according to an interview reviews the MANGA and makes changes accordingly.

It's up to you to interpret things how you want, but the manga has been the most consistent within itself and Toriyama is actively reviewing and working on it on a consistent basis, so take from that what you will.
We are likely never going to see this fabled outline to know what it should be, but it obviously has to be pretty vague and thin to have these kinds of adaptations, or Toriyama changed it which is why the manga would be more accurate to what he wants the series to be now.

For all we know the anime or the manga could be following the outline line for line. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean Toriyama didn't write it. Cut out the fanboyism. It's disrespectful to the artist work. you don't have to like it, some stuff I don't, but claiming something isn't his idea without any proof is disrespectful.

[TheMikado]

In other news, I'm looking forward to what today's episode does to power levels again

[Chiki]

In the anime Trunks is God tier because that's how they wrote it. Right are wrong, but he is weaker than the SSJ versions of Goku and Vegeta.

Two possibilities here:

1. Different writers have different ideas of how strong Base Goku is (SSG or around Buu arc levels) in the anime. So the two base theory is accidentally true. This makes a lot of sense. One writer thinks Goku absorbed SSG power and another doesn't, basically.
2. Goku only went SS2 to be even with Trunks in terms of transformations in the anime. He never needed to though and could have easily beaten Trunks in Base.

At this point I don't think anyone except Bullza thinks that Trunks is god level.

[TheMikado]

In the anime Trunks is God tier because that's how they wrote it. Right are wrong, but he is weaker than the SSJ versions of Goku and Vegeta.

Two possibilities here:

1. Different writers have different ideas of how strong Base Goku is (SSG or around Buu arc levels) in the anime. So the two base theory is accidentally true. This makes a lot of sense. One writer thinks Goku absorbed SSG power and another doesn't, basically.
2. Goku only went SS2 to be even with Trunks in terms of transformations in the anime. He never needed to though and could have easily beaten Trunks in Base.

At this point I don't think anyone except Bullza thinks that Trunks is god level.

It's definitely 1) because people in this forum have the same problem so it literally seems from episode to episode the writers are split on what Gokus power level actually is. I can easily see it happening where one half bases it on the movies where the other half draws a logically conclusion from the outline.

[OLKv3]

Yeah in the anime SSG level is no longer anything special. It's been surpassed by Magetta and on in the U6 tournament