Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Yeah in the anime SSG level is no longer anything special. It's been surpassed by Magetta and on in the U6 tournament

Arguably Frost and on with botoma and Piccolo being around or close

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm dying laughing right now because it looks like a bunch of the one basers from here are gathered on other forums trashing the manga and Toyotaro right now!!! Lol just take the L gracefully rather than ragging on someone 100x more talented than all of us, sheesh.

I mean, technically it is one base, but that one base moving forward is probably going to be the one we've had since the Android arc. I guess there were indeed "two bases," but out of poor planning rather than intent.

I suspect one of the following scenarios took place at some point during production.

1) Toriyama just doesn't realize what the movies and Freeza fight lay out, writes Super Saiyan into the next arc and assumes there hasn't been a huge increase. Toyotarou takes a hard approach while the anime remains inconsistent.

2) Toei: "Can we please get Goku back to normal power so we can use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 again and have them not beat every opponent in their normal forms? We guarantee kids won't care."

Toriyama: "Sure idgaf."

Toei adapts this approach inconsistently between different writers, either settles into approach during "F" adaptation of simply can't dedicate the resources to wildly changing it for the few fans who will notice. Toyotarou is able to implement the approach consistently as a single author, reintroducing God as an accessible form and adding some relative power statements in this chapter to clarify. (I find this more likely, as Toei pushing for the inclusion of the previous forms makes sense, but not fully settling on what that means for relative power until this arc, or dedicating someone to supervise consistency in that regard make sense as well.)

It seems they've all ended up at the same place though, if bits like copy-Vegeta and Gotenks are simply miscommunication in "filler" scripts. I guess we'll see where things go.

But this would mean Zamasu really is just around previous Super Saiyan 2 levels, Goku really is being earnest as a Super Saiyan 2 against Trunks, Frost is maybe Cell level (stronger than Piccolo but not in such a different realm) Cabba is just a stronger-than-average Saiyan that can get Vegeta to fight sincerely in base, etc. Everything makes so much more sense if this has been the intent since planning for Universe 6, just executed with limited oversight.

This is why, unless we get another major deviation from the anime, this makes more sense to me, and would seem to apply to both versions. It's a lot more likely on a meta level.

I really do think, unless we see them double down on the earlier approach, that Toei is assuming a "new normal." We have to remember that their target audience doesn't follow the story nearly as closely as we do, and keeping the characters at their previous strength outside of Blue allows them to show off a lot more forms and keep flexible. It's already the cleanest way to make sense out of even the anime's portrayal of the Trunks arc.

Which, up until this manga chapter, most would have called the "two base theory," but I think the faaaar better explanation is that someone changed their mind, and Toyotarou lucked into or planned for greater consistency in implementing that approach. Now that we have such a clear deviation and statement of intent from the manga, things are lining up for me in a way that "they planned for two different bases but have never mentioned it" never did. At the same time, a meta explanation covers all of the anime's wonkiness.

I think that Toriyama decided to abandon the base with SSG power state that he introduced in BoG & returned in FnF once he started working in a new series rather than new movies, in order to make use of the SS/2/3 forms & bring Goku & Vegeta back to a comparable level to the other Z-Senshi, instead of only having overpowered base Goku & Vegeta with only SSB as a transformation. But since his story drafts for Super aren't detailed, he wrote the new stories without explaining anything about this, and just had base Goku & Vegeta use their SS/2/3/B forms. He probably either thought that no one would notice, or just left it to Toei & Toyotaro to deal with an explanation. Which is where the mess begun.

On the one hand, Toyotaro took advantage of the rushed BoG arc & the skipped FnF arc, so instead of explaining it, he decided to not having to explain it at all & ignored its existence entirely by not introducing it at all. He also brought back SSG as a super powerful form compared to base/SS/2/3 to prove that Goku doesn't have any SSG power in his mortal forms.

Toei on the other hand, having multiple writers that aren't educated fanboys like Toyotaro, didn't even notice. Which is why the battle powers have now turned into a complete mess, everyone is overpowered out of nowhere, and the SS transformations' boosts are inconsistent.

In-universe, if we want to connect the continuities of the movies & the Super manga (it doesn't have complete BoG & FnF arcs, unlike the anime, and it follows the original manga instead of the anime continuity, like the movies), then the "2-base theory" connects them. Goku was using the base with SSG power up until FnF, since he didn't know how to turn SSG at will yet, but after he learned how to do it by the time the tournament in the U6 arc started, he abandoned that state because it is slightly weaker & doesn't have god ki.

• Before Super Saiyan God (Original manga & Battle of Gods)
  • Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3
• After Super Saiyan God (Battle of Gods)
  • Base -> Base with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan
    Base -> Base with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan God [By accident only]
• After training with Whis (Resurrection "F")
  • Base -> Base with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan Blue
• After learning how to go Super Saiyan God (Universe 6 arc & Future Trunks arc)
  • Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

So, we can either go with the retcon option, or the 2-base theory option. Since the video-games have the 2-base theory available, I'll go by that.

As for the anime, either go by the 2-base theory, or accept the plot-holes like in GT.

[TheMikado]

^ exactly this is what I've theorized for months now. But you have to admit GT was no where near this bad.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

^ exactly this is what I've theorized for months now. But you have to admit GT was no where near this bad.

Same level of shit. GT gave us this:

• SS Goku (vs Redgic) < Base Goku (vs Rild) < SS3 Goku (vs Baby) < Super Oob (vs Baby) < SS Goku (vs Super #17)
  Ultimate Gohan < SS Goten < SS Ultimate Gohan < SS Vegeta
  SS Gohan & Goten < Base Goku
  Oozaru Vegeta < SS Vegeta < Golden Oozaru Vegeta < SS4 Vegeta = SS4 Goku < Oozaru Vegeta

Let's not forget what DBZ filler gave us:

• SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS3 Goku < SS3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS3 Goku

[Hugo Boss]

Even if you're right, we could just redefine the two base theory no problem lol. I don't see why we need to be so closed-minded and limit ourselves to an outdated definition. Logicians and philosophers have always redefined theories when they were outdated so why can't we?

You seem to have fallen to the strawman fallacy. I never said we need to limit ourselves to an outdated definition. After you cleared up my misunderstanding, I concluded this theory is being presented in a wrong way. "Base" means "first stage". If Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God are transformations, they can't be the first stage. Then, you will just have to rename it, because "two-bases" confuses the people you are trying to convince.

Not directly, but your previous statements directly entailed it, since you keep repeating that the two base theory = Goku black hair theory, which is a closed-minded definition that can and should be replaced.

I don't see why "base" means first stage. Saiyan Beyond God is obviously a base yet as I showed, it's also a transformation with the same appearanc. You could just define it as a non-Super Saiyan form which makes perfect sense.

I'm still trying to make sense of this. Doesn't Saiyan Beyond God and Base have both black hair? They are non-Super Saiyan forms of Goku, so your new definition and mine [close-minded] are not very different. Unless you think Oozaru can jump into this definition.

Saiyan Beyond God can only be a base and a transformation, if Saiyan Beyond God's transformation replaced Goku's old base and now is the new base. And from this new base Goku changes to his other forms, including his old base which is now a transformation. Two "bases" can't cohexist, unless they are a product of bad planning and refer to the same form of Goku from two different perspectives in regards to strength.

[Beyond]

filler can give us Yamcha > SSB Goku for all I care. In fact I want that just so I can laugh.

[Chiki]

Doesn't Saiyan Beyond God and Base have both black hair?

Why do bases need to have black hair?

Unless you think Oozaru can jump into this definition.

I think Oozaru can be considered a third base, but if someone doesnt like that because it's too different then I'm fine with that. Then they'd have to change the definition a bit.

The only difference between SBG and SSG is the hair and aura color plus SSG Goku is skinnier. That's it.

SBG is a new base but not "the" base. That's his Buu arc Base.

[TheMikado]

^ exactly this is what I've theorized for months now. But you have to admit GT was no where near this bad.

Same level of shit. GT gave us this:

• SS Goku (vs Redgic) < Base Goku (vs Rild) < SS3 Goku (vs Baby) < Super Oob (vs Baby) < SS Goku (vs Super #17)
  Ultimate Gohan < SS Goten < SS Ultimate Gohan < SS Vegeta
  SS Gohan & Goten < Base Goku
  Oozaru Vegeta < SS Vegeta < Golden Oozaru Vegeta < SS4 Vegeta = SS4 Goku < Oozaru Vegeta

Let's not forget what DBZ filler gave us:

• SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS3 Goku < SS3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS3 Goku

Where are you getting these from??

SSJ Goten/Gohan (minion form)< Buu< 1st form Rildo < Base Goku < Ledgic <= 2nd form Rildo < SSJ baby inhabited/possessed Gohan < SSJ Goku/Vegeta< SSJ3 Goku <= Super Oob < SSJ Veget baby possessed. Etc etc.

You are taking your power levels out of context.

Veget fought a Possessed Gohan which acts as fusion and increased power like Baby Vegeta. Minion don't get the power increase which is who Goku fought.

Super 17 is completely out of context. The super punch was actually real, 17 catches he next punch effortless and states he was toying with Goku in another clip.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay7G-DcLUNo

Any power assumption in the Super 17 saga can be assumed from Super 17 being overly dramatic.
Once you understand the principals of baby's absorption the power levels make sense.

[TheMikado]

I'm still trying to make sense of this. Doesn't Saiyan Beyond God and Base have both black hair? They are non-Super Saiyan forms of Goku, so your new definition and mine [close-minded] are not very different. Unless you think Oozaru can jump into this definition.

Saiyan Beyond God can only be a base and a transformation, if Saiyan Beyond God's transformation replaced Goku's old base and now is the new base. And from this new base Goku changes to his other forms, including his old base which is now a transformation. Two "bases" can't cohexist, unless they are a product of bad planning and refer to the same form of Goku from two different perspectives in regards to strength.

I keep having to jump in here because of the misinformation.

The two base theory IS NOT because people believe there are two bases. It's because they believe Saiyan beyond God is a form that can be turned on and off independently of SSJ and that the anime presents its as a single base. The theory basically states that Goku appearing to have the base state appearance has two different levels due to God Ki and that that form can be turned on and off at will. In the manga this form is replaced by SSG and gives a visible visual context when it is in use and when it's not.

It's only called "two base" because the anime presents it as "one base" where it should be two different forms but they look exactly the same and no indication of which is which.

[apex_pretador]

OK, I'm taking a shot at Manga power levels
Disclaimer: RoF part was left to just "Goku & Vegeta beat golden freeza due to SSB" so I'm going to fill in the blanks. Also, I will try not to use Anime as a reference point. owever, after a couple more episodes, I'll go on to have an anime list (which is pretty consistent contrary to popular belief)


BoG

Goku 1
Freeza 2
(piccolo = 15)
Goku SS3 400
Beerus (Heavily suppressed) - 10,000

SSG Goku - 400 + 1,000,000 = 1,000,400
Suppresssed beerus - 1,500,000

RoF

Piccolo = 15
First form freeza = 25
Final form freeza (suppressed) = 150
Base goku = 3, Super Saiyan goku = 150
Golden freeza = 3,000,000
SuperSaiyan Blue = 2,600,000

U6 Tourney

Botamo = too low
Base goku = 2 (suppressed) , 4 (FP) , 200 (SS) = Vegeta
Frost :
- First form = 2
- Assault form = 5
- Final form = 80, weakened = 30
Piccolo = 18
Magatta = 180
Cabba = 3 , SS = 150
SSB Vegeta = 1,500,000 (10%)
SSG Goku = 1,600,000
SSB Goku = 15,000,000
Hit (full power) = 4,000,000

Trunks Arc:

Goku (base) = 4, (SS) = 200, SS2 = 400, SS3 = 1600
Trunks SS2 = 180, full power = 1800
SSG Goku = 1,500,000

[Bullza]

The problem is that if Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in the anime was closed to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, then he should be able to sense god ki since he's in that upper level. He can't. He says that he can't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. The closest he feels is pressure, similar to Vegeta during the in-between episodes of the Resurrection 'F' Saga. So at best, he's only as strong as Vegeta then. Also, unlike the manga, Vegeta never says Trunks is a match for Goku and it's never presented that way since Goku didn't even try. He didn't even move except to catch Trunks' fists.

Them sensing that Ki or not isnt consistent enough to make any kind of strenght comment. Goku on Earth couldn't sense Beerus, Whis or Vegeta on Beerus' planet but on that planet he can sense SSJ Kid Trunks.

Frieza couldn't sense that power either.

It wasn't just Trunks' fight with Goku but also Vegeta and Black aswell (and Beerus' comment). If the plot can call for Trunks to be around as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the manga then I don't see why the plot can't call for him to be around as strong as SSJ2 Goku in the anime.

They might be at a higher level in the anime but it's still the plot putting Trunks on their level.

[Cipher]

Sensing godly ki appears to be a trait possessed only by fellow users, or a learned ability (per the Oracle Fish stating that Vegeta has learned to sense the ki of a god when Whis returns; it's unclear whether he's become able to use godly ki himself at that point).

The idea that anyone sufficiently strong can do it is a complete fan fabrication.

[Chiki]

Sensing godly ki appears to be a trait possessed only by fellow users, or a learned ability (per the Oracle Fish stating that Vegeta has learned to sense the ki of a god when Whis returns; it's unclear whether he's become able to use godly ki himself at that point).

The idea that anyone sufficiently strong can do it is a complete fan fabrication.

It's made somewhat, but not completely, clear in episode 18 that it was because of power.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

[TheMikado]

Sensing godly ki appears to be a trait possessed only by fellow users, or a learned ability (per the Oracle Fish stating that Vegeta has learned to sense the ki of a god when Whis returns; it's unclear whether he's become able to use godly ki himself at that point).

The idea that anyone sufficiently strong can do it is a complete fan fabrication.

Hit being exceptional strong and also sensing God ki seemed to support this.

[Cipher]

They're training in the use of godly ki at that point, though.

You'd need to have a character who isn't training with Whis demonstrate an ability to sense godly ki through power alone, which hasn't happened yet.

Re: above: I don't recall a single implication that Hit can sense Goku and Vegeta's ki when they're Super Saiyan Blue. He takes notice when Vegeta transforms, but Cabba and Trunks have shown you don't need to be able to sense it in a quantifiable way in order to be unsettled by its pressure, especially for more savvy fighters. Neither can sense godly ki, but both immediately understand it is a "stronger" form. As crazy as it may seem, I actually don't think there's confirmation Hit can sense ki at all.

[Chiki]

They're training in the use of godly ki at that point, though.

You'd need to have a character who isn't training with Whis demonstrate an ability to sense godly ki through power alone, which hasn't happened yet.

Re: above: I don't recall a single implication that Hit can sense Goku and Vegeta's ki when they're Super Saiyan Blue. He takes notice when Vegeta transforms, but Cabba and Trunks have shown you don't need to be able to sense it in a quantifiable way in order to be unsettled by its pressure, especially for more savvy fighters. Neither can sense godly ki, but both immediately understand it is a "stronger" form. As crazy as it may seem, I actually don't think there's confirmation Hit can sense ki at all.

Then how come Base Goku and Vegeta's ki can be felt? They're just getting stronger. Vegeta and Goku's training in ep 18 shows that they weren't receiving any special ki in godly training since Vegeta says it's the same training he went through for months.

You're wrong about that. Were you the guy who said he remembered DB GT perfectly or something? You don't remember Super as well. Hit says that Kaioken SSB Goku's ki is going up by x3 and x4 as he reaches x10.

[Cipher]

I've seen each episode of Super once, so I'd say it's a safe bet I don't remember it as well. Forgot Hit commented directly in Goku's increasing power.

[Chiki]

I've seen each episode of Super once, so I'd say it's a safe bet I don't remember it as well. Forgot Hit commented directly in Goku's increasing power.

Also, Golden Frieza says in one of the episodes that judging from SSB Goku's ki, that he would win the match.

[ZombieVito]

I think that Toriyama decided to abandon the base with SSG power state that he introduced in BoG & returned in FnF once he started working in a new series rather than new movies, in order to make use of the SS/2/3 forms & bring Goku & Vegeta back to a comparable level to the other Z-Senshi, instead of only having overpowered base Goku & Vegeta with only SSB as a transformation. But since his story drafts for Super aren't detailed, he wrote the new stories without explaining anything about this, and just had base Goku & Vegeta use their SS/2/3/B forms. He probably either thought that no one would notice, or just left it to Toei & Toyotaro to deal with an explanation. Which is where the mess begun.

On the one hand, Toyotaro took advantage of the rushed BoG arc & the skipped FnF arc, so instead of explaining it, he decided to not having to explain it at all & ignored its existence entirely by not introducing it at all. He also brought back SSG as a super powerful form compared to base/SS/2/3 to prove that Goku doesn't have any SSG power in his mortal forms.

Toei on the other hand, having multiple writers that aren't educated fanboys like Toyotaro, didn't even notice. Which is why the battle powers have now turned into a complete mess, everyone is overpowered out of nowhere, and the SS transformations' boosts are inconsistent.

In-universe, if we want to connect the continuities of the movies & the Super manga (it doesn't have complete BoG & FnF arcs, unlike the anime, and it follows the original manga instead of the anime continuity, like the movies), then the "2-base theory" connects them. Goku was using the base with SSG power up until FnF, since he didn't know how to turn SSG at will yet, but after he learned how to do it by the time the tournament in the U6 arc started, he abandoned that state because it is slightly weaker & doesn't have god ki.

• Before Super Saiyan God (Original manga & Battle of Gods)
  • Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3
• After Super Saiyan God (Battle of Gods)
  • Base -> Base with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan
    Base -> Base with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan God [By accident only]
• After training with Whis (Resurrection "F")
  • Base -> Base with Super Saiyan God power -> Super Saiyan Blue
• After learning how to go Super Saiyan God (Universe 6 arc & Future Trunks arc)
  • Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue

So, we can either go with the retcon option, or the 2-base theory option. Since the video-games have the 2-base theory available, I'll go by that.

As for the anime, either go by the 2-base theory, or accept the plot-holes like in GT.

Yeah this. The "two base" theory is looking like the only option for me. That is the only way to explain how SSJ2 F.Trunks can't sense god Ki when final form Freeza, base Goku and Vegeta can. That would also make Piccolo and F.Trunks gains more realistic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The idea that anyone sufficiently strong can do it is a complete fan fabrication.

Eh? Whis said that base Goku & Vegeta can sense god ki because they have barely reached the level to do so, and that was at the end of Goku's first day of training, which only had physical training. Golden Freeza & Hit can also sense god ki, and no god ever trained Freeza.