Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Vegeta doesn't have any way to grasp his power

except piccolo's statement.

Now, moving on from kaioshin topic, why I believe that piccolo ~= SS gohan (buu arc)

Piccolo is excited to fight in budokai against SS vegeta , SS goku and SS gohan. (I believe atleast gohan will not go SS2 vs him and he doesn't know vegeta can go SS2 as well)
If piccolo << Shin << SS1 is true, then why even bother to be in the tournament when vegeta is going to be there? Pic is not the type of guy who underestimates the opponents, and he won't fight in pointless fight. So, say if he hasn't even achieved a level close to CG goku, then why bother fighting?
Piccolo >> SS trunks according to both goku & vegeta in DBS, and the only time after CG when they could've sensed piccolo's FP was buu arc or gap between buu arc & BoG.
We know how much trouble could goten give to gohan and trunks was even stronger than goten. Then they go to RoSaT and power up even further.
The only time piccolo is implied to be fodder is against SS2+ to SS3+ tier opponents.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:54 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Vegeta doesn't have any way to grasp his power
except piccolo's statement.

Piccolo's statement is vague. Vegeta has no way to know if Kaioshin is stronger than his Super Saiyan, for example. Kaioshin admitted inferiority to Dabra and Vegeta didn't think Dabra was impressive. Once he felt Boo's initial ki, Vegeta more or less confirmed his suspects.

In response to your list, Piccolo is fodder to Dabra, I don't think he showed any confidence in taking the Saiyans in the tournament. His role was pointless, but even Kuririn was there. Why not having a bit of fun?

The only point I see in favor of Piccolo is the strength of the Saiyan children being not too far from Gohan's, but it is hardly an implication as direct as to when Piccolo faced Kaioshin.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:15 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Updated my numbers for BoG/FnF/Super:

Notes:
I don't know if I'll make numbers for the arcs before Saiyan arc.

The Son Goku and Friends Return!! numbers are based on the manga adaptation, since Toriyama was more involved with it than the anime special.

The Battle of Gods & Resurrection "F" numbers are based on Toriyama's original scripts, not the movies or Super. So Shisami was never on par with Zarbon & Dodoria. We may not have the script for BoG, but based on the original promotional material, Toriyama's character designs, and how FnF turned out, my guess is that Gohan was originaly supposed to be a Super Saiyan against Beerus, so I'll go by that.

The Hakaishin Champa arc numbers are based on the manga by Toyotaro, since Toriyama has more involvement in this that the anime.

I may use numbers/statements/feats from the anime & guidebooks, but only when I personally feel like they fit with the manga/scripts.

Do you know where I could find a translation of the Resurrection script? I'd kinda like reference for my Super power levels.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:11 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Vegeta doesn't have any way to grasp his power
except piccolo's statement.
Piccolo's statement is vague. Vegeta has no way to know if Kaioshin is stronger than his Super Saiyan, for example. Kaioshin admitted inferiority to Dabra and Vegeta didn't think Dabra was impressive. Once he felt Boo's initial ki, Vegeta more or less confirmed his suspects.

He has no way of saying that kaioshin is "implied to be tremondous" except piccolo's statement.
How else is kaioshin "implied" to be anything?

In response to your list, Piccolo is fodder to Dabra, I don't think he showed any confidence in taking the Saiyans in the tournament. His role was pointless, but even Kuririn was there. Why not having a bit of fun?

I just thought that we already discussed that piccolo being spit upon doesn't mean he's fodder to dabra, didn't we?
Also, kuririn's character is completely different from piccolo's character. Piccolo doesn't fight someone way stronger than himself, unless there is a really desperate situation, or he has a trick up his sleeve.
He's not the type of guy to be there "just for fun" either.

The only point I see in favor of Piccolo is the strength of the Saiyan children being not too far from Gohan's, but it is hardly an implication as direct as to when Piccolo faced Kaioshin.

The evidence of piccolo facing kaioshin can't be taken as mentioned exactly when he can't even sense him.

More importantly, if kaioshin is so superior that why even bother fighting, and is nothing to Super saiyans, then why bother fighting super saiyans? So, either Shin >> SS or piccolo's statement can't be taken literally, which is further evident by vegeta's comment as well as not being able to sense ki AND piccolo not realizing who the person was.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:14 am

apex_pretador wrote:He has no way of saying that kaioshin is "implied to be tremondous" except piccolo's statement.
How else is kaioshin "implied" to be anything?

Vegeta didn't know how Kaioshin compared to him. They are both stronger than Piccolo. The reveal of Kaioshin's identity put even more doubt, because he is god whose strength is unknown. Feeling Boo's ki helped Vegeta to realize in which level Kaioshin was at.

Also, kuririn's character is completely different from piccolo's character. Piccolo doesn't fight someone way stronger than himself, unless there is a really desperate situation, or he has a trick up his sleeve.
He's not the type of guy to be there "just for fun" either.

You are not making sense. This Budokai was supposed to be a fun event, even more because Goku would be there. Videl, Vegeta and Piccolo said it would be, literally.

The evidence of piccolo facing kaioshin can't be taken as mentioned exactly when he can't even sense him.

Piccolo forfeits. Goku asks: "That much, Piccolo?" Piccolo replies: "Yeah, that much..". Trying to rationalize this tidbit is pointless, because the story doesn't touch in this subject furthermore.

More importantly, if kaioshin is so superior that why even bother fighting, and is nothing to Super saiyans, then why bother fighting super saiyans? So, either Shin >> SS or piccolo's statement can't be taken literally, which is further evident by vegeta's comment as well as not being able to sense ki AND piccolo not realizing who the person was.

You are overcomplicating. Piccolo didn't know how strong Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were. Plus, he thought it would be fun. Kaioshin made him feel odd. Simple.

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:29 pm

Freeza

Spoiler:

Cell

Spoiler:

Boo

Spoiler:

Analytic · Post by **Analytic** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:28 pm

Spoiler:

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:43 pm

Super pretty much confirmed Piccolo does in fact increase his power by training post Cell games.

There's never been a thing like "Maintenance training".

Analytic · Post by **Analytic** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:47 pm

Zombie wrote:There's never been a thing like "Maintenance training".

There's a first for everything.

Also, bumped up CG and Boo arc Piccolo.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:09 am

He's too high. He admitted inferiority to the Cell that wrecked Super Vegeta.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:16 am

Analytic wrote:
Spoiler:
Saiyan arc

Arrival of Raditz

Farmer
~ full power - 5

Piccolo
~ weighted - 322
~ full power - 408
--- 1st Makankōsappō - 1,330
--- 2nd Makankōsappō - 1,280

Son Goku
~ weighted - 334
~ full power - 416
--- Kamehameha - 924

Son Gohan
~ afraid - 1
~ distressed - 710
~ enraged - 1,307

Raditz
~ full power - 1,250

Pre Preparation

Piccolo
~ weighted - 329

Muten-Roshi
~ full power - 139

Chaozu
~ full power - 151

Yamcha
~ full power - 177

Kuririn
~ full power - 206

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 250

Enma Daio
~ full power - 1,800

Kaio-sama
~ full power - 3,500

Battle with Nappa and Vegeta

Yajirobe
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 600

Piccolo
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ suppressed - 1,220
~ full power - 2,000

Son Gohan
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ suppressed - 981
~ full power - 1,307
~ enraged - 2,800
--- Masenkō - 2,800
~ weakened - 600
~ Great Ape - 6,000

Kuririn
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ suppressed - 1,083
~ full power - 1,440

Chaozu
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 800

Tenshinhan
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 1,600
~ beaten down - 500
--- Kikoho - 2,500

Yamcha
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 1,350

Saibaman
~ full power - 1,200

Nappa
~ suppressed (vs. Zet Senshi) - 3,600
~ powered-up (vs. Goku) - 4,500
~ full power - 7,500

Son Goku
post 5 month Kaio-sama training
~ suppressed - 5,000
~ full power - 8,000+
~ Kaioken x2 - 16,000+
~ Kaioken x3 - 24,000+
---+ Kamehameha - 27,000+
~ Kaioken x4 - 32,000+
---+ Kamehameha - 36,000+

Vegeta
~ full power - 18,000
--- Gyarikku Hō - 27,000+
~ weakened (post Moon Ball) - 10,000
~ Great Ape - 100,000
~ weakened (post Great Ape) - 1,500

Spoiler:
Freeza arc

Arrival on Namek

Son Gohan
post Vegeta battle zenkai
~ full power - 1,500

Kuririn
~ weighted - 1,500

Banan
~ full power - 500

Sui
~ full power - 500

Vegeta
post Earth battle zenkai
~ full power - 24,000
--- Kitanai Hanabi - 30,000
post Zarbon battle zenkai
~ full power - 30,000

Kiwi
~ full power - 18,000

Orlen
~ full power - 1,500

Appule
~ Appule - 2,000
~ Lord Appule - 720,000

Namekian Warriors
~ suppressed - 1,000
~ full power - 3,000

Dodoria
~ full power - 20,000

Zarbon
~ Beautiful - 21,600
~ Monster - 28,800

The Ginyu Force

Kuririn
post Guru potential unlock
~ full power - 12,000
post Reacoom fight / vs. Ginyu
~ initial - 25,000

Son Gohan
post Guru potential unlock
~ full power - 12,800
post Reacoom fight zenkai
~ initial - 27,000

Vegeta
~ full power - 30,000
post Reacoom fight zenkai
~ full power (vs. Jeice) - 250,000

Gurd
~ full power - 10,000

Reacoom
~ full power - 36,000
--- Eraser Gun - 40,000

Jeice
~ full power - 36,000
--- Crusher Ball - 50,000

Butta
~ full power - 36,000

Son Goku
post 100x gravity training
~ suppressed - 5,000
~ bursts (vs. Ginyus) - 67,500
~ full power - 90,000
~ Kaioken x2 - 180,000
~ Kaioken x10 - 900,000

Captain Ginyu
~ full power - 120,000
in Son Goku's body
~ full power - 23,000

Nail
~ full power - 42,000

Battle with Freeza

Son Gohan
post Ginyu zenkai / potential unlocked
~ full power - 400,000
~ enraged - 1,000,000
post 2nd form Freeza fight zenkai
~ full power - 1,000,000
~ enraged - 2,250,000

Kuririn
power gradually increasing / potential unlocked
~ full power - 360,000

Vegeta
post Ginyu zenkai / fully rested
~ full power - 500,000
post Dende zenkai
~ full power - 3,600,000

Piccolo
post Kaio-sama's training
~ weighted - 216,000
~ full power - 270,000
post Nail assimilation
~ weighted - 1,440,000
~ full power - 1,800,000

Freeza
~ 1st form - 530,000
~ 2nd form (initial) - 1,060,000
~ 2nd form (powered-up): 1,350,000
~ 2nd form (full power) - 1,600,000
~ 3rd form - 2,400,000
~ True form (initial) - 5,400,000
~ True form (50%) - 120,000,000
~ True form (70%) - 168,000,000
~ True form - 240,000,000
--- Nova Strike - 562,500,000

Son Goku
post Ginyu zenkai
~ base - 5,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 - 100,000,000
---+ Kamehameha - 112,500,000
~ Super Saiyan - 250,000,000
--- Kamehameha - 540,000,000

Spoiler:
Cell arc

Freeza's Revenge

Freeza
post cybernetic enhancement power up
~ suppressed - 180,000,000
--- Supernova - 250,000,000
~ 100% power - 270,000,000

King Cold
~ full power - 200,000,000

Future Trunks
~ base - 9,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 450,000,000

Son Goku
post 1 year & 260 days Yardrat training
~ base - 10,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 500,000,000

Vegeta
post 130 days of rest, and 1 year & 130 days training on Earth and in space after Namek battle
~ full power - 8,000,000

Piccolo
post 260 days of rest and 1 year training on Earth after Namek battle
~ full power - 7,500,000

Son Gohan
post 260 days of rest/studying and 1 year studying after Namek battle
~ full power - 1,350,000

Kuririn
post 130 days dead, 130 days of rest, and 1 year of training after Namek battle
~ full power - 1,200,000

Tenshinhan
post 266 days training with Kaio-sama, and 1 year training on Earth after Namek battle
~ full power - 300,000

Yamcha
post 136 days training with Kaio-sama and 1 year & 130 days of rest after Namek battle
~ full power - 200,000

Chaozu
post 266 days training with Kaio-sama, and 1 year training on Earth after Namek battle
~ full power - 100,000

The Future

Future Piccolo
time of death
~ full power - 14,400,000

Future Vegeta
time of death
~ full power - 15,000,000

Future Son Gohan
~ base - 6,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 300,000,000
post left arm amputation
~ base - 8,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 400,000,000

Future Trunks
age 14
~ base - 120,000
~ Super Saiyan - 6,000,000
age 17
~ base - 9,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 450,000,000

Future #17
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)
~ 36% power - 360,000,000 (infinitely)

Future #18
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)

Arrival of the Androids

Son Goku
post 3 years Android training
~ base - 19,200,000
~ Super Saiyan - 960,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (sick) - 600,000,000

Piccolo
post 3 years Android training
~ suppressed - 14,400,000
~ full power - 720,000,000
post re-merge with Kami-sama
Kamiccolo
~ weighted - 1,440,000,000
~ full power - 1,600,000,000

Son Gohan
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 12,500,000

Kuririn
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 10,000,000

Yamcha
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 4,000,000

Tenshinhan
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 6,000,000

Android #19
~ max power - 400,000,000
post Ki absorption
~ max power - 540,000,000

Vegeta
post 3 years Android training
~ base - 20,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 1,000,000,000
--- Big Bang Attack - 1,250,000,000

Android #20 (Dr. Gero)
~ max power - 500,000,000
post Ki absorption
~ max power - 600,000,000

Future Trunks
post training in the Future
~ base - 18,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 900,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 1,600,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #18
~ max power - 1,400,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #21, Cell

Piccolo
~ weighted - 1,440,000,000

Cell
post 4 years evolution / hatching
~ 1st form - 1,200,000,000
--- Kamehameha - 2,665,000,000

The Quest for Perfection

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,600,000,000
~ worn down - 1,440,000,000
--- Gekiretsu Kodan - 4,500,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 1,600,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #18
~ max power - 1,400,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #16
~ max power - 7,200,000,000 (infinitely)

Cell
post mass humans absorbed
~ 1st form - 7,500,000,000
post Android #17 absorption
~ 2nd form (initial suppression) - 12,000,000,000

Hour of decision

Vegeta
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 12,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 20,000,000,000
--- Final Flash - 50,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 62,500,000,000

Future Trunks
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 240,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 12,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 19,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 60,000,000,000

Cell
~ 2nd form (initial suppression) - 12,000,000,000
~ 2nd form (full power) - 15,000,000,000
post Android #18 absorption
~ Perfect form (initial suppression) - 18,750,000,000
~ Perfect form (warming up suppression) - 40,000,000,000
~ Perfect form (power weighted) - 80,000,000,000

10 days peace

Son Goku
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ Super Saiyan (50%) - 50,000,000,000

Piccolo
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ full power - 30,000,000,000

The Cell Games

Mr. Satan
~ full power - 6.66

Kuririn
~ full power - 10,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 4,000,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 6,000,000

Son Goku
~ base - 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (post Kamehameha) - 80,000,000,000

Vegeta
post 2nd year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 1,250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 62,500,000,000

Future Trunks
post 2nd year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 1,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 60,000,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

Android #16
~ max power - 7,200,000,000 (infinitely)

Son Gohan
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 3,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 160,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 800,000,000,000

Cell
~ Perfect form (powered up suppression) - 112,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (full power) - 500,000,000,000
post Android #18 regurgitation
~ 2nd form - 15,000,000,000
post self-destruct zenkai
~ Perfect form (Super Perfect) - 750,000,000,000

Cell Jr.
~ full power - 64,000,000,000

Free the Future

Future Trunks
~ base - 1,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 60,000,000,000

Future #17
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)

Future #18
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)

Future Cell
post mass human absorption[/color]
~ 1st form - 3,6000,000,000

Spoiler:
Majin Boo arc

25th Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku
post 7 years training in the afterlife
~ base - 3,600,000,000

Vegeta
post 7 years training on Earth
~ base - 2,880,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 144,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 720,000,000,000

Son Gohan
post 7 years of inactivity
~ base - 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 120,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 600,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ base - 2,160,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 108,000,000,000

Trunks
~ base - 2,250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 112,500,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 1,400,000,000 (infinitely)

Kuririn
post 4 years of light training & 3 years of inactivity
~ full power - 10,000,000

Piccolo
post 7 years of maintenance training
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

East Kaioshin
~ full power - 80,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Bobbidi's Spaceship

East Kaioshin
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

Pocus
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ base - 2,880,000,000

Yakon
~ full power - 3,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ base - 3,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (suppressed light demonstration) - 11,250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (suppressed burst) - 750,000,000,000

Dabra
~ full power - 112,500,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan - 120,000,000,000

Majin Boo awakens

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 108,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 112,500,000,000

Kuririn
~ full power - 10,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 30,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan - 120,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 600,000,000,000

East Kaioshin
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

Vegeta
post Majin power up
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 900,000,000,000
--- Final Explosion - 4,000,000,000,000

Majin Boo
South Kaioshin & Dai Kaioshin absorbed
~ initial suppression - 500,000,000,000
~ powered up - 1,000,000,000,000
~ full power - 3,000,000,000,000

Dabra
~ full power - 112,500,000,000

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 900,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 3,600,000,000,000

Trunks and Goten metamoran fusion
Gotenks
~ base - 90,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 4,500,000,000,000

Fusion

Son Gohan
~ base - 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 180,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 600,000,000,000
post Zeta Sword training
~ base - 10,800,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 540,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2,700,000,000,000
post Elder Kaioshin potential unlock
~ Ultimate | full power - 9,000,000,000,000,000

Majin Boo
~ full power - 3,000,000,000,000
evil released
~ Good Boo - 1,200,000,000,000
~ Pure Evil Boo - 1,800,000,000,000

Son Goten
post 2 week Room of Spirit and Time training
~ Super Saiyan - 150,000,000,000

Trunks
post 2 week Room of Spirit and Time training
~ Super Saiyan - 150,000,000,000

Gotenks
post 2 week Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 7,500,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 375,000,000,000,000
--- Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack - 750,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 1,875,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 7,500,000,000,000,000

Evil Boo
Pure Evil Boo eats Good Boo
~ initial - 4,000,000,000,000
~ power up 1 (@ Lookout) - 8,000,000,000,000
~ power up 2 (vs. SS Gotenks) - 500,000,000,000,000
~ full power - 6,000,000,000,000,000
--- Mouth Blast - 6,750,000,000,000,000
~ Gotenks absorbed - 13,500,000,000,000,000
~ Gohan absorbed - 15,000,000,000,000,000
--- Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack - 30,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta and Goku metamoran fusion
Gogeta
~ base - 9,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 450,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2,250,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 9,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta and Goku potara fusion
Vegetto
~ base - 500,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 25,000,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 125,000,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 500,000,000,000,000,000

The Final Battle

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 3,600,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 900,000,000,000

Pure Boo
~ South Kaioshin absorbed - 12,000,000,000,000,000
removal of all influence[/color][/i]
~ full power - 3,375,000,000,000

Good Boo
~ full power - 1,200,000,000,000

End of Z

Son Goku
post 10 years training
~ base - 1,500,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 75,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 375,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 1,500,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ full power - 9,000,000,000,000,000

Good Boo
~ full power - 1,200,000,000,000

Oob
Pure Boo reincarnated
~ enraged - 1,562,500,000,000
~ angry Kiai - 3,375,000,000,000

Your numbers look incredibly huge.
Man, I hate such ridiculous boosts, but anyways, lets forget about it and come to good points:

- Imperfect cell (post) is too high compared to Kamiccolo IMO
- Buu arc piccolo must be above SS trunks, or atleast very close, unless you believe that he did rigorous training in between buu arc & BoG, and buu arc piccolo must be dignificantly above CG Piccolo, not weaker than that.
- Why do you have a power level for every attack?
- I like your placement on freeza & goku
- The jumps from Namek to Arrival of trunks are too large and are not even implied (except piccolo). Gohan doesn't even take a note of goku being stronger than on namek, let alone THAT MUCH stronger.
- Nappa can't "suppress"
- South kaioshin buu can't be thousands of times stronger than kid buu, because kaioshin saw south kaioshin getting absorbed, and said that he "transformed into bulky one" but not said anything about his power being affected. If he literally got thousands of times stronger , then Kaioshin should've commented on it.

Zombie wrote:He's too high. He admitted inferiority to the Cell that wrecked Super Vegeta.

But he sensed bulked-up cell in the brief moment where cell bulks up and trunks powered down to base, and THEN commented that cell's perfect form "Is in-n-ncredible"

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:54 pm

So what are your power levels for normal and bulked Roshi for the 21st TB and the RoF arc?

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:30 pm

Zombie wrote:So what are your power levels for normal and bulked Roshi for the 21st TB and the RoF arc?

- 21st Budokai Roshi - 30
-- Buff - 60
---- Moon busting Kamehameha- 300

- Res. F Roshi - 1,500
-- Buff - 3,000

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:35 pm

How can Roshi's Kamehameha have a way higher multiplier than Goku's Super Kamehameha?

Analytic · Post by **Analytic** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:37 pm

Zombie wrote:He's too high. He admitted inferiority to the Cell that wrecked Super Vegeta.

He knew Cell would get stronger than he was against Vegeta and Trunks, if I recall correctly. I believe when Goku comes out of the RoSaT he says to Piccolo that there's no way of knowing how powerful Cell would become. Also, as already mentioned, he saw and sensed Buff Cell.

apex_pretador wrote:1) Imperfect cell (post) is too high compared to Kamiccolo IMO
2) Buu arc piccolo must be above SS trunks, or atleast very close, unless you believe that he did rigorous training in between buu arc & BoG, and buu arc piccolo must be dignificantly above CG Piccolo, not weaker than that.
3) Why do you have a power level for every attack?
4) I like your placement on freeza & goku
5) The jumps from Namek to Arrival of trunks are too large and are not even implied (except piccolo). Gohan doesn't even take a note of goku being stronger than on namek, let alone THAT MUCH stronger.
6) Nappa can't "suppress"
7) South kaioshin buu can't be thousands of times stronger than kid buu, because kaioshin saw south kaioshin getting absorbed, and said that he "transformed into bulky one" but not said anything about his power being affected. If he literally got thousands of times stronger , then Kaioshin should've commented on it.

1) What makes you say that?
2) Do you mean Kid Trunks? Also, I don't factor in newer material; manga only.
3) Why not? We've given numbers for the Kamehameha and Makankosappo in the beginning of the manga, so I don't mind coming up with some other ones for other attacks.
4) Thanks.
5) Trunks can take down Freeza in seconds, and Goku was even stronger than Trunks' initial expectations. Goku > Trunks >> Freeza >= Namek Goku.
6) He can't suppress in the sense that he can hide his battle power from a scouter, but he can definitely alter his power output.
7) I don't have South Kaioshin thousands of times stronger than Pure Boo.

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:27 pm

@Analytic

I'd increase Piccolo (Cell Games) even further. He did not seem to be so messed up after the Cell Junior fight. I think he being 78% of the Cell Junior is too much of a gap.

Why do you have Goku SSJ2 (Boo saga) and Majin Vegeta that stronger than SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan? Even more when Piccolo was not so sure about Majin Vegeta's superiority.

Why is Piccolo (Boo arc) weaker than Cell Games Piccolo?

Analytic · Post by **Analytic** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:29 pm

ahill1 wrote:I'd increase Piccolo (Cell Games) even further. He did not seem to be so messed up after the Cell Junior fight. I think he being 78% of the Cell Junior is too much of a gap.

I don't really think that he rivals Trunks or Vegeta just based on the fact that he isn't grouped together with Trunks and Vegeta. I think the gap is fine, it's small enough for Piccolo to not be one-shotted.

ahill1 wrote:Why do you have Goku SSJ2 (Boo saga) and Majin Vegeta that stronger than SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan? Even more when Piccolo was not so sure about Majin Vegeta's superiority.

I usually don't like the excuse of Piccolo not being the best Ki sensor, but in this case I think the gap is relatively small enough for Piccolo to have a harder time telling. It's the absolute maximum I would go, but I think it's possible. It also makes spacing a little easier.

ahill1 wrote:Why is Piccolo (Boo arc) weaker than Cell Games Piccolo?

Mistake. Fixed now.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:45 am

Zombie wrote:How can Roshi's Kamehameha have a way higher multiplier than Goku's Super Kamehameha?

Well, my REAL reason for putting it that high is how it can, apparently, destroy Ozaru Goku, so I stuck it at roughly the same level as him. If you want an actual justification, let's just say that while the Max. Power Kamehameha's raw destructive power is amazing, it uses up all of his power in one shot and anyone with a decent level of speed could probably dodge it, so it's not effective in straight combat. Goku's Super Kamehameha is comparatively less powerful, but as Roshi notes, Goku isn't even breathing hard after using one on Piccolo.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:08 am

@ analytic

I'll reply to you later.

Also, on Majin vegeta & goku vs SS2 CG gohan, yeah, they must be much stronger than him. Vegeta said he surpassed gohan.
Piccolo's statement was not that CG gohan is equal to them, he also said he perhaps surpassed gohan.
Also, remember that vegeta, unlike piccolo, had that power in his mind, everytime, everyday, while piccolo thought that it was a god-like power. He holds CG gohan in high regard. Remember how shocked he was when vegeta said gohan was killed?

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:59 pm

@Analytic

More questions:

Why do you have Goku base that stronger than Yakon? Goku had problems dodging Yakon's firsts hits and Gohan even offered help to Goku, when Goku should not transform into SSJ (though the dark could play a factor on it, sure).

Buff Boo 2x stronger than Super Boo? Why so much? All Goku said was that Buff was becoming stronger IIRC. I'd not put him any above of Ultimate Gohan.

You do have Dabra equal to Perfect Cell who fought Goku, I see. What do you do about Goku later saying Dabra was a lot stronger than he thought? This at least should imply Dabra > Cell (vs Goku).

Also, do you think FPSSJ Gohan (Cell Games) was way, way better than Cell (suppressed vs Goku)? Since Vegeta said kid Gohan was far better than his older self, by this logic Gohan (Cell Games) should be far better than suppressed Cell vs Son Goku. Cell's going to his real speed doesn't seem that increase of power to me.

I think East Kaioshin being many, many and many times stronger than the base Saiyans is a bit farfetched, as he was amazed at base Vegeta's power, even going as far as to say he surpassed all of his expectations.

Kanzenshuu

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