Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Wtf, SSB Vegeta can't do any damage to Base Black?

I'm out of this thread. This is ridiculous

Goku Black must have been holding back a lot in his battles with Future Trunks and Goku. Then when he's gonna get serious, he just power up while he is in his base form.

Also Black looks hurt from Vegeta's punching before he grins. I'm betting Vegeta has given him SSB power.

This would make a lot of sense.

First Cell, then Buu and now Black. Good job Vegeta

[Lord Beerus]

Also Black looks hurt from Vegeta's punching before he grins. I'm betting Vegeta has given him SSB power.

This would make a lot of sense.

First Cell, then Buu and now Black. Good job Vegeta

Vegeta's always helping out the villains. He can't help it.

[TheMikado]

Wtf, SSB Vegeta can't do any damage to Base Black?

Wow it's almost like SSJB isn't leagues above SSJ3 level like Mikado and myself mentioned. That surely can't make sense because Black is only as strong as SSJ3 Goku whose only Buu level right?

No this fits just fine, further confirmation that their Super Saiyans forms are God level like they said.

In the anime this is correct, but it's not the case in the manga. What's crazy about this is that I don't understand what the previous Goku vs Black fight actual was??? Like was Black putting any effort at all if he can tank SSB? He would have to be at Beerus level or close to it and before going SSR. If the anime pulls some BS we he goes from below SSJ2 tier to Beerus level in BASE from getting punched a few times from SSJ2 Goku I think I'm done permanently. And, after all this, if Goku manages to save the day AGAIN. I will just have to give up on this entirely .../

The other thing is if he's this strong he should have been able to wipe out Trunks just by breathing. There's no way this should have been an ongoing battle for Trunks he should be dead the first time Black saw him if he's that strong!

[Bullza]

In the anime this is correct, but it's not the case in the manga. What's crazy about this is that I don't understand what the previous Goku vs Black fight actual was??? Like was Black putting any effort at all if he can tank SSB? He would have to be at Beerus level or close to it and before going SSR. If the anime pulls some BS we he goes from below SSJ2 tier to Beerus level in BASE from getting punched a few times from SSJ2 Goku I think I'm done permanently. And, after all this, if Goku manages to save the day AGAIN. I will just have to give up on this entirely .../

It shouldn't be like it at all in the manga but we haven't got to that point yet. Maybe in the manga Goku will use his Super Saiyan God form to fight Black whereas he used SSJ2 in the anime.

Goku hurt Black quite a bit at the end of their fight and Black said something about what that pain would do for him. Maybe he's stronger when he fights SSJB Vegeta than he was when Trunks said he was slightly above SSJ3 Goku? Maybe him being distracted during the fight was what allowed Goku to get in some good shots or the portal sucking him was holding back? Who knows.

Now I'm just wondering how strong SSJR Black will be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

[Bullza]

Sorry for the double post but the comment that Goku makes about Black using his full power surely has to be referring to him being able to turn into a Super Saiyan Rose right? Especially as it appears in the episode.

It doesn't necessarily mean he was holding back in base form at all. We should know in the next episode if Goku still says that and then Black transforms afterwards.

[HeroR]

Nothing of the sort has been shown. Him being Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' level and no one commenting on is the same as saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan God Goku's level based on him not dying to Frost.

They did comment on it. Beerus said he was pretty good and Goku said he was amazed at how far he'd come on his own. Piccolo didn't get any comment whatsoever.

Second, the only reason you think Trunks is god level is because you are incapable of judging actions contextually.

How come everyone else seems to be able to post comments without being snarky but you aren't able to?

For example, your weak reasoning also implies Bulma beating up Goku at the end of BoG is proof that Bulma is god level. Even though it was a context in which Goku was relaxing and not going all out.

Except you don't know in anyway at all that Goku was relaxing and not going all out. As nobody at all said that Goku was holding back when he was fighting Trunks, either in the anime or manga, then you don't actually know, you can only assume. What we do actually know however is that Trunks was holding back. Likewise we know Beerus was holding back because we know for a fact he can knock out people stronger than Bulma in one hit.

Similarly, you take SSB Vegeta taking his time beating Trunks as proof of Trunks being strong. This is ridiculous because we know SS3 Goku is weaker than SSB no matter what view you hold, and he beat Trunks in 1 hit. Your pure visual reasoning also implies that SS3 Goku is stronger than SSB Vegeta. This is absurd.

No it's not just that, it's also him being able to react to Super Saiyan Blue's speed and dodge his attack and it's not as though Vegeta let him hit him either. Again we know for a fact that SSJB is stronger than SSJ3. We also know that after Trunks fought SSJB Vegeta he was confident that they'd beat Black which he wasn't after he fought SSJ3 Goku. So Vegeta at that time would be putting out more power than what Goku did.

He can be holding back and that's fine but he would not laugh off SSJ3 and then go at Trunks at a level underneath SSJ3.

Third, SS2 Trunks is simply not god level in the anime since Golden Frieza and Hit can sense godly ki and so can Base Vegeta, all because of power as Whis said (they were not doing any training to sense god ki.

But Final Form Frieza can not sense Godly Ki meaning that it doesn't mean anything when Frieza was around the same level as the Base Saiyans when they fought and they were stronger after training with Whis.

Although it seems like almost everyone in this thread accepts the two base theory now.

No you can't keep forcing your opinions on to others and then trying to play that off as some kind of weird victory. With the newest chapter it only became even more obvious there is no two bases.

In the manga Goku didn't absorb the power of God and it goes Base -> SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SSJG -> SSJB. In the anime he did absorb the power of God and it goes Base -> SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SSJB.

He went from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2 and became noticeably stronger. So the vague, he's gotten stronger, means he has gotten stronger. Being as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would have gotten a bit more of a reaction.

It shouldn't be like it at all in the manga but we haven't got to that point yet. Maybe in the manga Goku will use his Super Saiyan God form to fight Black whereas he used SSJ2 in the anime.

Goku hurt Black quite a bit at the end of their fight and Black said something about what that pain would do for him. Maybe he's stronger when he fights SSJB Vegeta than he was when Trunks said he was slightly above SSJ3 Goku? Maybe him being distracted during the fight was what allowed Goku to get in some good shots or the portal sucking him was holding back? Who knows.

Now I'm just wondering how strong SSJR Black will be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

Black was clearly distracted when he fought Goku. Goku kicked him the first time because he saw Trunks' time machine, and he got hit again when he was being pulled into the time portal. For most of the fight Black was even with Goku, and they were both holding back. Black even said that he will take his time and enjoy the fight. Black not fighting at his full power has been hit over our heads several times, but some people refused to acknowledge it since Trunks said that Black is at least Super Saiyan 3 Goku's level. And he powered up after the fight, so the jump in power should shock no one.

Also, if it's one thing Super should have taught us by now, don't trust the previews. Remember when it looked like Black owned Goku in the preview for their first fight, or Goku and Vegeta going to the future in episode 48.

[Hugo Boss]

Doesn't Saiyan Beyond God and Base have both black hair?

Why do bases need to have black hair?

I never said they need. Strawman fallacy again. It happens that Regular Goku has black hair, and Saiyan Beyond God too.

I keep having to jump in here because of the misinformation.

The two base theory IS NOT because people believe there are two bases. It's because they believe Saiyan beyond God is a form that can be turned on and off independently of SSJ and that the anime presents its as a single base. The theory basically states that Goku appearing to have the base state appearance has two different levels due to God Ki and that that form can be turned on and off at will. In the manga this form is replaced by SSG and gives a visible visual context when it is in use and when it's not.

It's only called "two base" because the anime presents it as "one base" where it should be two different forms but they look exactly the same and no indication of which is which.

I'm only worried because I'm seeing terms like "base" and "form" being used without care. If there is one base, the name "two bases" alone leads to confusion. You need an explanation like you offered in order to make sense of it. Those two "bases" are actually two levels of the same form, the base. In a nutshell, Saiyan Beyond God is just Base Goku enhanced with god ki.

[TheMikado]

That was always the crux of the theory. It was just called two bases because in the anime, when discussing the thought process you would literally have to say "two different bases (forms that look exactly the same) but with radically different power levels. The name of it was partial due to trying to explain what was happening and so instead it saying "two different base appearances with different power levels" it just became "two bases". I get what you're saying but it that's just what happened.

[Cipher]

Now that I've finally seen the NEP, that was the Super Saiyan Blue vs. Black clip that had everyone up in arms?

It looks like he's getting the crap beaten out of him. Is everyone's problem that he doesn't explode in one punch or something? You have to be a little more flexible than that.

In addition, his major ability so far seems to be gaining strength/techniques from opponents' blows, though the exact mechanisms for this haven't yet been revealed.

[HeroR]

Now that I've finally seen the NEP, that was the Super Saiyan Blue vs. Black clip that had everyone up in arms?

It looks like he's getting the crap beaten out of him. Is everyone's problem that he doesn't explode in one punch or something? You have to be a little more flexible than that.

Black wasn't getting beating up, he was blocking Vegeta's attack and then smiled. Just like Goku did when Trunks attacked him as a Super Saiyan 2 during their sparring match.

[Cipher]

Black wasn't getting beating up, he was blocking Vegeta's attack and then smiled. Just like Goku did when Trunks attacked him as a Super Saiyan 2 during their sparring match.

He's being pummeled every second of that clip (he "blocks" the first but is rocketed backward). Yes, he smiles, which is what he does against Goku before stating the pain makes him stronger.

Again, what do people want to happen? Should he evaporate the second Vegeta touches him?

[HeroR]

Black wasn't getting beating up, he was blocking Vegeta's attack and then smiled. Just like Goku did when Trunks attacked him as a Super Saiyan 2 during their sparring match.

He's being pummeled every second of that clip (he "blocks" the first but is rocketed backward). Yes, he smiles, which is what he does against Goku before stating the pain makes him stronger.

Again, what do people want to happen? Should he evaporate the second Vegeta touches him?

But he wasn't being plummet. Vegeta is attacking him furiously and he's just blocking. For most of the clip, Black's eyes are covered before smiling. Just like Goku blocked Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and did nothing.

[Cipher]

But he wasn't being plummet. Vegeta is attacking him furiously and he's just blocking. For most of the clip, Black's eyes are covered before smiling. Just like Goku blocked Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and did nothing.

I can't quite tell if he's blocking or being continuously punched in the gut in the second shot, because his arms are out of frame and it's like one second long. It looks like he's wincing and smiling at the same time though, which is consistent with his M.O. -- he likes getting beaten up because he appears to gain power from it, or that's been the implication so far.

Either way, he's not fighting back or standing his ground. Again, what would you want to see happen? You can't be that inflexible with fighting in Dragon Ball. Like, do you want Vegeta to go full Tao Pai Pai and instantly kill him with his tongue?

[Lionel]

At this point I've come to expect inconsistent tolerance rates for damage. Gohan can literally tear through beings who are more than a third of his strength like they're flimsy paper yet Goku is able to receive hits from Freeza when he's twenty times weaker and still get up. It's dictated based on the whims of the writing staff.

[HeroR]

But he wasn't being plummet. Vegeta is attacking him furiously and he's just blocking. For most of the clip, Black's eyes are covered before smiling. Just like Goku blocked Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and did nothing.

I can't quite tell if he's blocking or being continuously punched in the gut in the second shot, because his arms are out of frame and it's like one second long. It looks like he's wincing and smiling at the same time though, which is consistent with his M.O. -- he likes getting beaten up because he appears to gain power from it, or that's been the implication so far.

Either way, he's not fighting back or standing his ground. Again, what would you want to see happen? You can't be that inflexible with fighting in Dragon Ball. Like, do you want Vegeta to go full Tao Pai Pai and instantly kill him with his tongue?

Could be either, since people though Black groaned when Trunks punched him as a Super Saiyan, but when you looked at the screen again he's laughing.

All we know from the screen is that Black can withstand hit from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta who doesn't appear to be holding back. For example, Super Saiyan Goku fought Frost and didn't knock him out, while Super Saiyan Vegeta took Frost out with one punch. Until we see the intention of the scene, it looks like from the previews that Vegeta isn't messing around like Goku would, yet Black isn't laid out on the ground. If anything, Black seems amused.

At this point I've come to expect inconsistent tolerance rates for damage. Gohan can literally tear through beings who are more than a third of his strength like they're flimsy paper yet Goku is able to receive hits from Freeza when he's twenty times weaker and still get up. It's dictated based on the whims of the writing staff.

It's not really writing staff since stuff like that happened in the original manga all the time. Freeza wanted to keep Goku for alive as possible because he was torturing him. The moment Freeza stopped screwing around, he took down Piccolo and Krillin in seconds.

[Lionel]

So it required Freeza to go from some minuscule percentage of his total power to half for a power level of 3,000,000? Remember, Goku didn't start using the Kaioken until after Freeza powered up. He could have probably replicated those results by increasing his power up to 4% if it was consistent.

Concerning Black -- if that's indeed the Goku from the future timeline then how did he become so powerful in the first place? No one in the afterlife was strong enough to practice fusion with Goku between the Cell and Buu arcs so it can't be the result of him having trained arduously with other super powerful characters. Furthermore, if Black's base power was originally Zamasu's then it seems reasonable to assume that he didn't experience much opposition that was difficult to overcome. No one except for Hit -- who isn't even part of the same universe -- could oppose him that isn't a deity (Freeza is another possibility but he shouldn't have been resurrected in this timeline). How did he become so powerful? One suspicion that I have is Zamasu having given future Goku God Ki somehow. Could they have fused together?

[HeroR]

So it required Freeza to go from some minuscule percentage of his total power to half for a power level of 3,000,000? Remember, Goku didn't start using the Kaioken until after Freeza powered up. He could have probably replicated those results by increasing his power up to 4% if it was consistent.

Concerning Black -- if that's indeed the Goku from the future timeline then how did he become so powerful in the first place? No one in the afterlife was strong enough to practice fusion with Goku between the Cell and Buu arcs so it can't be the result of him having trained arduously with other super powerful characters. Furthermore, if Black's base power was originally Zamasu's then it seems reasonable to assume that he didn't experience much opposition that was difficult to overcome. No one except for Hit -- who isn't even part of the same universe -- could oppose him that isn't a deity (Freeza is another possibility but he shouldn't have been resurrected in this timeline). How did he become so powerful? One suspicion that I have is Zamasu having given future Goku God Ki somehow. Could they have fused together?

As I said, Freeza said himself he wanted to keep Goku alive for as long as possible to make him suffer. So Freeza wasn't aiming to kill Goku in one hit. If he wanted to, he could have scattered Goku across the planet without trying. Also, Freeza said that if he used half of his power, he could pound Goku into the ground, not that he needed to use half of his power. He then says that he was beating Goku up with just a third of strength.

They can't be a fusion in the way we have seen in the series (outside of the Namekian fusion) because Black looks like Goku, calls himself Goku, and acts nothing like Zamasu or Goku outside of wanting to kill humans for justice and loving fighting. Neither Goku nor Zamasu are sadistic. If they were fusion, they should be blending of their personality or one of the personalities should be more dominated.

[Bullza]

Being as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would have gotten a bit more of a reaction.

Not necessarily, SSJ3 Gotenks is pitifully weak by current standards. He was super powerful like five sagas ago. A lot of characters have shown up since surpassing him, several make Goku look pitifully weak.

I have no idea why people have an issue with Trunks being that strong in a series where Krillin can have his head touched and become stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta.

People keep trying to find excuses just so Trunks can't be around as strong as Goku. Beerus calls SSJ2 Vegeta utterly pathetic and SSJ2 Trunks pretty good "Oh but he was always mean to Vegeta". He pushes SSJ2 Goku back with his guard up and SSJ3 Gotenks can't budge Copy Vegeta with his guard down "Oh well Goku was holding back" even though they never said Goku was holding back and they did say Trunks was holding back.

People were saying Trunks can't be as strong as "X" because Goku and Vegeta only got as strong as "Y" by the Buu saga. Yet the manga has SSJ2 Trunks 10 years after the Cell Games being as strong as SSJ3 Goku 14 years after the Cell Games and he was given magical training weights, trained in 10x gravity, had a sparring partner, the ROSAT and trained with Whis. So now you've got people saying "Oh well it's because he's a half breed and Zenkai boosts" and things which nobody mentioned before.

The anime and manga present a similar thing. SSJ2 Goku fights SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks is able to "push" Goku. Nobody says Goku was dicking about. Goku turns SSJ3. Trunks powers up a second time. Trunks attacks him with his sword. Goku takes him out. Obviously in the manga they were equal and in the anime they aren't but there's absolutely no reason why Trunks couldn't be around as strong as SSJ2 Goku in the anime.

Even in the manga he can't be that far off SSJ3 Gotenks if he's equal to current SSJ3 Goku.

[Lionel]

I understand what you meant. My responce has to do with the rationale behind using 50% and a third of his overall power. Such results are achievable with far smaller power amounts. Like I said, 4% could have sufficed since the difference would be equivalent to 160% of Base Goku's strength. It just seems like Toriyama was looking for a nice sounding double-digit number that seemed notably large.

To be fair, we don't know anything about the future iteration of Zamasu; there shouldn't even be a Zamasu in the first place because he's from Universe 10 while Trunks' world is based in Universe 7. Unless he crossed universes using his ring somehow then he shouldn't be in Universe 7. Not all Potara fusions result in the same distribution of characteristics -- besides age and magical powers Elder Kaioshin didn't resemble the old witch.

[buutenks]

Trunks in the anime is no doubt stronger than buu saga characters, but he isn't god level.

As for Black surviving ssj blue, Roshi survived a hit from powered up Tagoma. Or Black was holding back allot.