Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Trunks in the anime is no doubt stronger than buu saga characters, but he isn't god level.

But why is he not? If being as low as SSJ Goku back in the Battle of Gods saga is enough to be at God level then why is SSJ2 Trunks by the Black saga not?

A lot of people seem to be saying that he's not at God level and making excuses for the things that point to him being God level but nobody is really saying why he isn't God level outside of the inconsistent God Ki sensing.

[Lionel]

I think it has to do with the sheer magnitude of the leap. God Ki and tier has been written in a way that portrays it as being this otherworldly level that was inconceivable to Goku and everyone before Beerus showed up. For Trunks to unknowingly reach it all on his own through inexplicable means seems impossible for some people. Personally, I find it strange how we're willing to make that leap for Trunks yet Piccolo being stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta is out of the question. In fact, this future iteration of Goku going from stronger than Freeza on Namek to blocking a hit from a determined SSJB Vegeta and inevitably fighting on-par with him (at least) seems like an even greater leap.

[HeroR]

Being as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would have gotten a bit more of a reaction.

Not necessarily, SSJ3 Gotenks is pitifully weak by current standards. He was super powerful like five sagas ago. A lot of characters have shown up since surpassing him, several make Goku look pitifully weak.

I have no idea why people have an issue with Trunks being that strong in a series where Krillin can have his head touched and become stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta.

People keep trying to find excuses just so Trunks can't be around as strong as Goku. Beerus calls SSJ2 Vegeta utterly pathetic and SSJ2 Trunks pretty good "Oh but he was always mean to Vegeta". He pushes SSJ2 Goku back with his guard up and SSJ3 Gotenks can't budge Copy Vegeta with his guard down "Oh well Goku was holding back" even though they never said Goku was holding back and they did say Trunks was holding back.

People were saying Trunks can't be as strong as "X" because Goku and Vegeta only got as strong as "Y" by the Buu saga. Yet the manga has SSJ2 Trunks 10 years after the Cell Games being as strong as SSJ3 Goku 14 years after the Cell Games and he was given magical training weights, trained in 10x gravity, had a sparring partner, the ROSAT and trained with Whis. So now you've got people saying "Oh well it's because he's a half breed and Zenkai boosts" and things which nobody mentioned before.

The anime and manga present a similar thing. SSJ2 Goku fights SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks is able to "push" Goku. Nobody says Goku was dicking about. Goku turns SSJ3. Trunks powers up a second time. Trunks attacks him with his sword. Goku takes him out. Obviously in the manga they were equal and in the anime they aren't but there's absolutely no reason why Trunks couldn't be around as strong as SSJ2 Goku in the anime.

Even in the manga he can't be that far off SSJ3 Gotenks if he's equal to current SSJ3 Goku.

Gotenks didn't get that much weaker since the Buu Saga, and Whis stopped thinking about eating to watched Super Saiyan 3 Goku when he transformed fighting Beerus, So if you believed Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the beginning of Battle of Gods was weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, he would still have a power that would get Whis' attention. However, Beerus just said pretty good while looking drunk off of jerky, and Goku just said Trunks has gotten much stronger. Not, wow, you're up there with Gohan at his best, or something like the manga did.

Using the manga in this context is useless since the manga uses Super Saiyan God as its own transformation. There is nothing saying Trunks has gotten that strong other than vague, he's gotten stronger, which he has since he went from being killed by Super Perfect Cell, to killing Dabura (which he called a tough battle) who was an opponent equal to Cell's best. So, I'm going to need some hard evident to be convince that Trunks is past Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Also, using the Copy-Vegeta in this context isn't good because Vegeta is not Goku. Vegeta isn't going to let someone push him around, even the merged form of his son, while Goku will let people wail on him before attacking. Goku is also infamous for dicking around as Vegeta notes himself. And if you've noticed, Beerus was meaner to Vegeta. Even when Vegeta raged and surpassed Goku, he still treated Vegeta like crap, while he paid Super Saiyan 3 Goku a compliment.

I think it has to do with the sheer magnitude of the leap. God Ki and tier has been written in a way that portrays it as being this otherworldly level that was inconceivable to Goku and everyone before Beerus showed up. For Trunks to unknowingly reach it all on his own through inexplicable means seems impossible for some people. Personally, I find it strange how we're willing to make that leap for Trunks yet Piccolo being stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta is out of the question. In fact, this future iteration of Goku going from stronger than Freeza on Namek to blocking a hit from a determined SSJB Vegeta and inevitably fighting on-par with him (at least) seems like an even greater leap.

We don't know if Black is Future Goku. So that part about Future Goku making a huge power jump is speculation.

[HeroR]

Trunks in the anime is no doubt stronger than buu saga characters, but he isn't god level.

As for Black surviving ssj blue, Roshi survived a hit from powered up Tagoma. Or Black was holding back allot.

There is a lot of doubt about Trunks being stronger than Buu Saga characters given that the only context we have is his fight with Goku, where Goku didn't do anything but block. And it was said several times that Black was holding back a lot. Trunks put Black as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and powered up after fighting Goku.

[Bullza]

That's something the series has done many times though. Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Frieza were on a completely different spectrum from everyone at the time and then in the next arc Piccolo is on that level.

Super Vegito was the same, strong to the point he could beat Buuhan as candy. Next arc you had Goku, Beerus and Whis make it look like a chump. Then after that Vegeta and Frieza train for several months and also surpass it.

In todays episode you had yet another new character whose supposed to make Whis look like a chump and Whis was in a tier of his own just a year ago and now it looks like he isn't even in the top 5 characters around.

So yeah it's strange to me that people can accept some things but then not other things that are practically the same thing.

To me Goku becoming the Super Saiyan of legend in one saga and then Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo, Androids 16-20 and Cell meeting or surpassing that level shortly afterwards is no different whatsoever from Goku becoming the Super Saiyan God in one saga and then Vegeta, Trunks, Magetta, Cabba, Zamasu, Frieza etc meeting or surpassing that level shortly afterwards.

The difference between Trunks and Piccolo is that Piccolo was shown to be as strong as Gohan and Gohan couldn't be God level and nobody commented on him powering up.

[HeroR]

That's something the series has done many times though. Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Frieza were on a completely different spectrum from everyone at the time and then in the next arc Piccolo is on that level.

Super Vegito was the same, strong to the point he could beat Buuhan as candy. Next arc you had Goku, Beerus and Whis make it look like a chump. Then after that Vegeta and Frieza train for several months and also surpass it.

In todays episode you had yet another new character whose supposed to make Whis look like a chump and Whis was in a tier of his own just a year ago and now it looks like he isn't even in the top 5 characters around.

So yeah it's strange to me that people can accept some things but then not other things that are practically the same thing.

To me Goku becoming the Super Saiyan of legend in one saga and then Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo, Androids 16-20 and Cell meeting or surpassing that level shortly afterwards is no different whatsoever from Goku becoming the Super Saiyan God in one saga and then Vegeta, Trunks, Magetta, Cabba, Zamasu, Frieza etc meeting or surpassing that level shortly afterwards.

The difference between Trunks and Piccolo is that Piccolo was shown to be as strong as Gohan and Gohan couldn't be God level and nobody commented on him powering up.

But with Piccolo we had Krillin actually say, 'wow, Piccolo is as strong as a Super Saiyan' and he was beating up an enemy stronger than Freeza.

With Beerus, Goku outright said Vegetto would be no match.

We also had Whis himself said he was no match for the Grand Priest.

We have no statements of the such for Trunks. No one said, 'wow, he's stronger than Gohan at his best' or 'wow, he's power is closed to Goku'. We only got, he has gotten stronger and Beerus, 'he's pretty good'. So those things you named is not even remotely the same as Trunks' situation. You only proved when people make a big power jump, they make a comparison statement like Dabura is almost as strong as Cell, or they have someone who is known to be strong to get beating, Dabura being one-shotted by Buu.

[Bullza]

Not, wow, you're up there with Gohan at his best, or something like the manga did.

Well that's just specifics. People didn't seem to have any issue with Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than Ultimate Gohan even though Roshi only said he was stronger Goku did they?

So, I'm going to need some hard evident to be convince that Trunks is past Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Well there is none, I could be completely wrong entirely. Once again I'm just taking things as they were presented. They said SSJ Goku wasn't weaker than SSJG Goku. SSJ2 Goku would be stronger and Trunks was able to force him to defend himself and push him back. They never said he held back but they did with Trunks.

Trunks was able to put pressure on SSJ3 Goku's arm when he was blocking his sword but as a SSJ he took what Frost said was a full power punch and he just grabs his arm and it doesn't budge at all.

Whis says that Black is impressive in the present but Trunks fought him in the future where he was supposed to be stronger and he was able to hold his own briefly against someone who can probably hold his own against SSJB Vegeta going by the preview.

He can react to SSJB Vegeta's speed, he dodged his punch, he was kicked through a forest and punched around and stayed conscious but Cabba dropped before he knew what happened. Afterwards Trunks was impressed enough with Vegeta's power that he was sure they'd beat Black.

The manga is different but they both present the same idea that Trunks has powered up enough to be on a similiar level to Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

Vegeta isn't going to let someone push him around, even the merged form of his son, while Goku will let people wail on him before attacking.

Well Gotenks couldn't push him around. He was hitting and blasting away at him but it wasn't affecting him at all. He didn't do the same thing with Magetta or Cabba because they could affect him.

Doesn't make sense for SSJ2 Goku who was said to be tens of times stronger than his base form to be pushed back and guard himself from someone if they're weaker than Gotenks.

We have no statements of the such for Trunks.

We don't have any statements that Goku was holding back or dicking about against Trunks. No statement that SSJB Vegeta was holding back either.

To say he can't be at that level because it wasn't said but then assume they were holding back even though that wasn't said doesn't seem right.

[Chiki]

I never said they need. Strawman fallacy again. It happens that Regular Goku has black hair, and Saiyan Beyond God too.

Oh really? You made it very clear that it was needed in this post:

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms.

"As you said previously" but I never said that. Isn't what you're doing the straw man fallacy? I never said that the two base theory refers to black haired Goku (well, perhaps I said an older version of the theory does).

The language you use makes it very clear that you think black hair Goku = base:

We have been calling the regular black-haired Goku "base", because he has transformations. It's an obvious fact.

This definition entails that you think Base and SBG Goku can be the only two bases for the two base theory since you only call black hair Goku base.

I'm not making any straw man fallacies here, but maybe you are.

===

The next ep preview makes it very clear that SSB Vegeta is pummeling Black and Black is getting a kick out of it. Probably a power boost. I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

[TheMikado]

Now that I've finally seen the NEP, that was the Super Saiyan Blue vs. Black clip that had everyone up in arms?

It looks like he's getting the crap beaten out of him. Is everyone's problem that he doesn't explode in one punch or something? You have to be a little more flexible than that.

In addition, his major ability so far seems to be gaining strength/techniques from opponents' blows, though the exact mechanisms for this haven't yet been revealed.

You're right I over reacted, this definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt. To be honest this feels like the Super 17 saga which could get annoying if it plays out similarly.

[buutenks]

I have no problem seeing Trunks higher than buu saga characters. I just dont see him at super saiyan god levels, that is all. Since no one mentioned anything in universe.

[Chiki]

I have no problem seeing Trunks higher than buu saga characters. I just dont see him at super saiyan god levels, that is all. Since no one mentioned anything in universe.

According to Bullza, the main reason the two base theory is false is because no one mentioned it.

But when it's something that he likes--Trunks is SSG level--it's fine for him if no one mentioned it.

Look at the double standard (in terms of logic, I don't mean it at a personal level) here.

[buutenks]

I have no problem seeing Trunks higher than buu saga characters. I just dont see him at super saiyan god levels, that is all. Since no one mentioned anything in universe.

According to Bullza, the main reason the two base theory is false is because no one mentioned it.

But when it's something that he likes--Trunks is SSG level--it's fine for him if no one mentioned it.

Look at the double standard (in terms of logic, I don't mean it at a personal level) here.

I consider the super saiyan god level to be something special, so unless one gets in-universe statements about him or her surpassing that level or they fight toe to toe with ssj blue i dont place them that high.

So basically i dont consider, Frost,Magetta, Cabba etc to be super saiyan god level. Only Hit, even FF Freeza i dont consider god level, just super powerful. Only his Golden Form is at that level.

As for Bullza, he/she merely says that because ssj2 Trunks was close to ssj2 Goku, means he is god level since ssj Goku fought Beerus and kept that power. I disagree since not only did Goku have no reason to harm Trunks, nor vegeta for that matter, plus Trunks failed to sense god ki.

As for FF Freeza being equal to Goku and not sensing god ki, well he never said he couldnt. He merely tried to punch Goku to see for himself if that power wasnt a simple lie.

So to me, this shows Trunks isnt god level or anywhere near it. But others will disagree with me and say he is because he was able to survive ssj blue vegeta's assault(which makes no sense since Vegeta wasnt trying to kill him) and was able to see Vegeta's movements. But to me, that was vegeta simply lowering his speed because he thought trunks will use a sluggish form, which was Trunks' actual intention to make Vegeta to slow down. Notice when Vegeta darts around Trunks is able to follow and says it worked.

[Chiki]

There is no doubt whatsoever that FF Frieza is SSG level (well, maybe a bit below). When he powers up, both Goku and Vegeta are shocked at his power (Goku says what the hell kind of training did you do?). I think that's good enough proof in terms of statements.

[buutenks]

There is no doubt whatsoever that FF Frieza is SSG level (well, maybe a bit below). When he powers up, both Goku and Vegeta are shocked at his power (Goku says what the hell kind of training did you do?). I think that's good enough proof in terms of statements.

So you r saying current base Goku is god level? Wouldnt that put U6 fighers at god tier?

[ssbgoku]

Damn... why I am seeing it again ?, why can't people just understand that neither base goku or vegeta are at ssg level, hell they are not even close to it. U6 fighters are top tiers buu arc at the best, nothing else. The way beerus is treating goku(base) I can see base goku being weak and insignificant to god level, but beerus knows that goku has transformations and they can change this matter.

In the manga, the latest chapter it was pointed out specifically that neither goku or vegeta are not even close to beerus. Hell, even beerus didn't comment on ssg goku in u6 being any stronger then ssg goku against beerus, which shows raise of power and improvement over base form may be really small.

In the anime, Goku is still treated casually and Trunks isn't even close to ssg, as beerus was never that impressed with him at all. Berus calling Trunks pretty good just shows trunks at his absolute maximum make him enraged ss2 vegeta from bog arc and most likely higher.

base Goku/vegeta -1
Ss goku/vegeta - 50
ss2 goku/vegeta - 100
ss3 goku - 400
ssg goku - 6000
ssb goku/vegeta - 7000-8000
beerus - 10 000

Well that it. Also please give me break with kaiokenx10 ssb bullshit, extra addition

[Hugo Boss]

[spoiler]

I never said they need. Strawman fallacy again. It happens that Regular Goku has black hair, and Saiyan Beyond God too.

Oh really? You made it very clear that it was needed in this post:

No, as you said previously, the two-base theory refers to black-haired Goku having two different powerlevels, not two different forms.

"As you said previously" but I never said that. Isn't what you're doing the straw man fallacy? I never said that the two base theory refers to black haired Goku (well, perhaps I said an older version of the theory does).

The language you use makes it very clear that you think black hair Goku = base:

We have been calling the regular black-haired Goku "base", because he has transformations. It's an obvious fact.

This definition entails that you think Base and SBG Goku can be the only two bases for the two base theory since you only call black hair Goku base.

I'm not making any straw man fallacies here, but maybe you are.[/spoiler]

You don't seem to be understanding the confusion you are doing here.

First, I never made any clear the two bases we are talking about here need black hair, they both just happen to have black hair. They don't need, they have. That's why I pointed a strawman fallacy.

Second, you didn't understand what I said there. You said previously the "two base" theory referred to powerlevels rather than appearance. Okay. Then, I assumed you were talking about the regular black-haired Goku we all know, because honestly what else could he be? After that, we started a debate concerning if Saiyan Beyond God is a base or a transformation and I concluded that you can reconcile the two definitions as long as they can't cohexist.

Third, I do think Base Goku has black hair. Does anyone else here think he doesn't?

Fourth, the obvious fact I said is that if Goku didn't have transformations, he couldn't have a base. And if Goku has transformations, he has a base.

Finally, are you implying Base and SBG Goku are not the only two bases of the theory? What are you talking about? Mikado?

[kinisking]

It's been specifically stated that God level can't be attained without the ritual or special training. It was a level that Goku couldn't reach through training. So why the hell would Future trunks be at that level?

[Chiki]

There is no doubt whatsoever that FF Frieza is SSG level (well, maybe a bit below). When he powers up, both Goku and Vegeta are shocked at his power (Goku says what the hell kind of training did you do?). I think that's good enough proof in terms of statements.

So you r saying current base Goku is god level? Wouldnt that put U6 fighers at god tier?

Two base theory.

[buutenks]

There is no doubt whatsoever that FF Frieza is SSG level (well, maybe a bit below). When he powers up, both Goku and Vegeta are shocked at his power (Goku says what the hell kind of training did you do?). I think that's good enough proof in terms of statements.

So you r saying current base Goku is god level? Wouldnt that put U6 fighers at god tier?

Two base theory.

That is your opinion and i respect it, but i never agreed with the 2 base theory, and proly never will till it is mentioned in universe. So for now i will stick to what i thought many months ago.

i am not trying to change your opinion or any one elses, all can agree or disagree with me but below i will write my opinion:

So, just because Goku says what kind of training did u do doesnt automatically put FF Freeza at god level, is what i believe.

As i mentioned many many many pages back, i believe base goku and ssj are around Vegetto's level and in turn so is FF Freeza.

Basically:

Base Goku=Buuhan/Buutenks or Above
ssj Goku=ssj1-3 Vegetto
ssj blue=God level.

Baring that in mind, ofc Goku would say what kind of training did he do,to achieve such a huge power that would rival even Vegetto's. And when Freeza went Golden, he broke the god barrier and got ridiculously stronger, enough to have even a higher BP than the newly improved ssj blue.

As for u6 fighters, i dont think Frost is as strong as FF Freeza, only Magetta is at that level. Since ssj vegeta had to give his all in his ssj1 form to beat him. But besides Hit none are god level.

That is how i thought of it 6 months ago, this is how i think now. And i doubt anything will change. Infact Trunks not able to sense god ki pretty much reinforced it for me.

[apex_pretador]

Trunks in the anime is no doubt stronger than buu saga characters, but he isn't god level.

As for Black surviving ssj blue, Roshi survived a hit from powered up Tagoma. Or Black was holding back allot.

This is true, and everyone is just forcing themselves into "two base theory" without any reason, despite both manga and anime proving it wrong over and over again.