Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Such low numbers for SSB and Hit? Where do you place enraged Vegeta and SSG Goku?

Goku SSG: 60,000
Enraged Vegeta: 5,000

Why would Beerus use 10% of his power if 1% would do the job?

Beerus (Vs Goku): 60,000
10%: 6,000

[Kaboom]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan for the Cell arc?

Kuririn — 150,000
Tenshinhan — 80,000
Yamcha — 40,000

All unchanged since the start of the Androids arc, obviously.

Also, what are y'all's numbers for the Champa Arc so far?

Don't have any. Don't see myself ever bothering.

In the Dabra vs. Gohan fight, if Dabra is a 10, where do you guys put Gohan at?

An 11 or 12.

There's a bit in the Dragon Books that say Dabra "clearly possesses inferior power" to Gohan's, and that would mean Gohan's rusty skills were why they stalemated. They seemed about even by performance, but Gohan took a big surprise blast to the face and was pretty much unharmed, which strongly suggests he's the more powerful one. All of which just adds to why Vegeta and Goku were so disappointed that Gohan was having trouble with Dabra... either one of them at Super Saiyan could probably just swoop in and make short work of him.

[Noah]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan in EoZ?

[VegetaSSJBlue]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan in EoZ?

Kuririn: 75,000
Tenshinhan: 60,000
Yamcha: 20,000
Chaoz: 15,000

[Kaboom]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan in EoZ?

Don't have any. They're not Saiyans, so by that point their age has probably started affecting their ability to gain power. They probably haven't significantly improved since the Boo arc. Poor ol' Tenshinhan most likely never quite caught up to Kuririn.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

What are your numbers for Roshi, Jaco, Tagoma and Shisami in FnF?

[ZombieVito]

What are your numbers for Roshi, Jaco, Tagoma and Shisami in FnF?

Tagoma: 22,500
-- After training: 2,700,000,000
-- Ginyu power up: 3,600,000,000

Shisami: 30,000

Roshi: 139
-- Full power form: 780

Jaco: 500

[VegetaSSJBlue]

What are your numbers for Roshi, Jaco, Tagoma and Shisami in FnF?

Tagoma: 22,500
-- After training: 2,700,000,000
-- Ginyu power up: 3,600,000,000

Shisami: 30,000

Roshi: 139
-- Full power form: 780

Jaco: 500

And Freeza’s soldiers?

Freeza’s soldiers: 1,000

Jaco: 1,500

Roshi: 1,390
Full Power: 3,000

[ZombieVito]

They are second rate.

100 - 1,000.

[LightBing]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

Here they are for so there's no misunderstanding:

Spoiler:

"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
(From Kanzenshuu)

It seems he's keeping his word since the Saiyans haven't used the forms yet. So the tidbit should be taken as a fact, until proven wrong.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Goku: 4.5

Super Saiyan: 1,800

Saiyan Beyond God: 18,000

Super Saiyan God: 600,000

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: 900,000

[Kaboom]

What are your numbers for Roshi, Jaco, Tagoma and Shisami in FnF?

Well these are going to be made up on the spot and somewhat arbitrary, but...

Muten Roshi: 1,390
-- Buff: 4,170
Jaco: 2,000

Tagoma: 20,000-something
-- Dead: 0
Shisami: 20,000-something
-- After Possible Training With Freeza: A billion or so.

And Freeza’s soldiers?

On average, they're supposed to be much weaker than back in Freeza's heyday. Aside from the bigwigs like Shisami and maybe Sorbet, I'd bet even the strongest guys are well under a thousand.

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

The key point in Toriyama's quote is "after the fight with Beerus." Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are no longer worth using or refining because Goku has his godly power now. He doesn't seem to need anything more than basic Super Saiyan to fully channel that power in the form of SSGSS, and using SS2 or SS3 for that instead would most likely just waste energy.

Even if Goku's god-power is independent of his normal power, and something he can choose whether or not to tap into, it's still a better option than SS2 or SS3 whenever he needs something stronger than his normal Super Saiyan. So when Goku's power chain was once Base → SS1 → SS2 → SS3, with the latter two steps having drawbacks, it's now Base → SS1 → ("Beyond God" Base) → SSGSS, with no inherent flaws in any steps.

[Hugo Boss]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

I think Toriyama is using exactly the same thought he put when Goku got rid of the bulky forms of Super Saiyan back in the Perfect Cell saga. Super Saiyan Blue is like a new SS2.

[ahill1]

Kuririn being only at 150,000 during the Androids' arrival is too ridiculous IMO. I mean, that should be his power level against Freeza (and that's already a bit too low).

[Kaboom]

Kuririn being only at 150,000 during the Androids' arrival is too ridiculous IMO. I mean, that should be his power level against Freeza (and that's already a bit too low).

Kuririn already has an established power level for the start of the Freeza fight, and that's 75,000. Then assuming that his power continued rising from the Grand Elder's unlock for a bit longer before he died, which obviously would have halted the process, he may have ended up around 100,000. Then add on 2 years of casual training before Trunks' visit and then another 3 years of harder training before the Androids, and you get upwards of 150,000.

Considering he was only pushing 2,000 when he arrived on Namek, and doesn't have the haxed growth methods of the Saiyans, that's pretty damned impressive. It's more than high enough for him to play the small roles he did in the story after that, and gives him a massive enough lead over the other Earthlings that, even after spending time on Kaio's planet, Tenshinhan never managed to catch up.

[LightBing]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

The key point in Toriyama's quote is "after the fight with Beerus." Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are no longer worth using or refining because Goku has his godly power now. He doesn't seem to need anything more than basic Super Saiyan to fully channel that power in the form of SSGSS, and using SS2 or SS3 for that instead would most likely just waste energy.

Even if Goku's god-power is independent of his normal power, and something he can choose whether or not to tap into, it's still a better option than SS2 or SS3 whenever he needs something stronger than his normal Super Saiyan. So when Goku's power chain was once Base → SS1 → SS2 → SS3, with the latter two steps having drawbacks, it's now Base → SS1 → ("Beyond God" Base) → SSGSS, with no inherent flaws in any steps.

I don't think the quote suggests God Power at all. The question was: "Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!"

He starts answering by bringing SSJ2 and SSJ3 down, pretty much discarding them. This was in 2014, SSJB might not have been thought of yet. He does say, Goku can be stronger if he focused on Base and SSJ. Not counting with the Base God theory, this is pretty much confirmed. Base Goku is at least SSJ2 level, SSJ Goku should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

I think Toriyama is using exactly the same thought he put when Goku got rid of the bulky forms of Super Saiyan back in the Perfect Cell saga. Super Saiyan Blue is like a new SS2.

I honestly think he threw the idea away(forgot?) in the Boo Arc. Making for some awful character regression. Goku said, mastering SSJ is the way to go. The Boo Arc came and Goku spent 7 years basically trying to access SSJ2 and SSJ3 making him an idiot. Since he didn't get significantly stronger bar the transformations.
This quote is him returning to the idea. SSJB, to me, isn't like SSJ2 it's a way to access the "Gods" realm. Which he apparently wants to make a very exclusive club.

Kuririn being only at 150,000 during the Androids' arrival is too ridiculous IMO. I mean, that should be his power level against Freeza (and that's already a bit too low).

I agree with you, the humans should be in the low millions, 2 millions tops for Kuririn less for the others. Dr.Gero confused Yamcha as Goku. He then said the last battle analyzed was against Vegeta, so he knows about Kaioken x3 at the very least.
Then he made some calculations of the possible growth, let's say he stopped at 50.000 with Kaioken x3, 150.000.

But when he was proven wrong, he didn't despair. Telling that the him and #19 were much stronger than the predicted Goku, no matter how wrong they were they had enough margin to trust the win. Then there's him calling Yamcha and the others great energy. To me that puts the humans in the low millions.

[Hugo Boss]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

I think Toriyama is using exactly the same thought he put when Goku got rid of the bulky forms of Super Saiyan back in the Perfect Cell saga. Super Saiyan Blue is like a new SS2.

I honestly think he threw the idea away(forgot?) in the Boo Arc. Making for some awful character regression. Goku said, mastering SSJ is the way to go. The Boo Arc came and Goku spent 7 years basically trying to access SSJ2 and SSJ3 making him an idiot. Since he didn't get significantly stronger bar the transformations.
This quote is him returning to the idea. SSJB, to me, isn't like SSJ2 it's a way to access the "Gods" realm. Which he apparently wants to make a very exclusive club.

I like to think they are alike, because Vegeta once described Super Saiyan Blue as something which surpass the legendary Super Saiyan. It's an interesting deja vú, considering they have surpassed Super Saiyan so many times, v.g. SS2 Gohan and Super Vegeta.

[LightBing]

Yeah, he did say something like that. I now think of SSJ2 and SSJ3 as different grade transformations. I just can't compare SSJB to them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

Here they are for so there's no misunderstanding:

Spoiler:

"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
(From Kanzenshuu)

It seems he's keeping his word since the Saiyans haven't used the forms yet. So the tidbit should be taken as a fact, until proven wrong.

Toriyama said that Goku won't be using SS2 & SS3 after his fight with Beerus, meaning after he absorbed the power of SSG. When Goku absorbed the power of SSG and returned to his regular form, his power barely decreased, and after he turned into a Super Saiyan, his power barely increased. After that he reached SSB in order to become stronger, but even though the form gives him a significant increase, the boost is less than x2 since he is still much weaker than Beerus.

So, after Goku absorbed the SSG power, both SS & SSB gave him increases below x2 instead of the usual x50 increase. So, I don't believe that SS2 & SS3 (golden or Blue, if possible) have kept their x2 & x4 boosts, they should be smaller than x2 as well. So, while getting a x2/4 increase + ki consumption is a good idea, getting a less than x2 increase + ki consumption isn't. That's why Goku abandoned Super Saiyan Grade 2 in favor of regular Super Saiyan back then, it gave him a big, yet smaller than x2, increase + ki consumption.

We saw what happened with Freeza in both his Full Power & Golden forms. Full Power Freeza started close to SS Goku, yet after a few minutes he became much weaker than SS Goku due to his ki consumption, to the point that he wasn't even worth Goku's time. Golden Freeza started stronger than SSB Goku, yet after a few minutes he became weaker than SSB Goku, again due to his ki consumption.

So, let's say that SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta, who are equals in FnF, fight. Goku if Goku was to use Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 3, he would have been stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, but due to the ki consumption, he would eventually fall below Vegeta, and Vegeta would win. If Goku was to do the same against a stronger opponent like Beerus, he would just lose faster. That's why SSG2, SS2, and SS3 are now abandoned.


(This is taking into account the movies & the Super manga, not the Super anime.)

[apex_pretador]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

Here they are for so there's no misunderstanding:

Spoiler:

"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
(From Kanzenshuu)

It seems he's keeping his word since the Saiyans haven't used the forms yet. So the tidbit should be taken as a fact, until proven wrong.

IMO, this is the reason how cabba can be even with vegeta in base, and be nothing to vegeta as a SS.

Also, one more thing to add to your argument, say if base goku was 1/50 of SS goku = SSG goku, who was able to fight back against (Lying) 100% beerus, then if goku had gone 100x his base by going SS2, then he could have one-shotted the so called "100%" beerus.

Also, whis specifically emphasised on improving base strength than SS strength. If, say improving base strength already improves SS strength 50 times over , then why was it specifically emphasized only in whis training, and not before?
Even in time-chamber training (Cell) , neither goku nor vegeta think about "improving base" if it yields 50x the result.