Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Also, whis specifically emphasised on improving base strength than SS strength. If, say improving base strength already improves SS strength 50 times over , then why was it specifically emphasized only in whis training, and not before?
Even in time-chamber training (Cell) , neither goku nor vegeta think about "improving base" if it yields 50x the result.

Maybe they thought mastering Super Saiyan was the best way to move forward. Even if they get stronger in their normal forms, Super Saiyan would still put a huge stress on them.

[apex_pretador]

Also, whis specifically emphasised on improving base strength than SS strength. If, say improving base strength already improves SS strength 50 times over , then why was it specifically emphasized only in whis training, and not before?
Even in time-chamber training (Cell) , neither goku nor vegeta think about "improving base" if it yields 50x the result.

Maybe they thought mastering Super Saiyan was the best way to move forward. Even if they get stronger in their normal forms, Super Saiyan would still put a huge stress on them.

but grade 2 (which is implied to be more stressful than regular SS) Vegeta fought semi-cell for a long time and still had stamina enough to fight and beat a stronger cell (PC expected). He then fights suppressed PC, and isn't running out of stamina or feels much stress either, and even after getting badly stomped, he still has got stamina enough to do a final flash.

So, grade 2 has excellent showing, atleast a showing that's not bad.
If grade 2 was really stronger than SSFP (Which goku used after mastering the form), then goku would've used it when he got openings for attacking cell. He did seem to try his hardest to kill cell and he'd not have left an option to further amplify his chances if any.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, perhaps they don't value power as much as you think. Even after a second trip in RoSaT, Vegeta was still behind Goku's Super Saiyan and he didn't bother to use his "Super Vegeta" form against the Cell Jrs.

[dbgtFO]

Well, perhaps they don't value power as much as you think. Even after a second trip in RoSaT, Vegeta was still behind Goku's Super Saiyan and he didn't bother to use his "Super Vegeta" form against the Cell Jrs.

Well that's the point in contention here. Vegeta could simply be maxed out in power already and so he can't turn Super Vegeta, when he fights the Cell Jrs.

[apex_pretador]

Well, perhaps they don't value power as much as you think. Even after a second trip in RoSaT, Vegeta was still behind Goku's Super Saiyan and he didn't bother to use his "Super Vegeta" form against the Cell Jrs.

Well that's the point in contention here. Vegeta could simply be maxed out in power already and so he can't turn Super Vegeta, when he fights the Cell Jrs.

exactly.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, perhaps they don't value power as much as you think. Even after a second trip in RoSaT, Vegeta was still behind Goku's Super Saiyan and he didn't bother to use his "Super Vegeta" form against the Cell Jrs.

Well that's the point in contention here. Vegeta could simply be maxed out in power already and so he can't turn Super Vegeta, when he fights the Cell Jrs.

I agree that's possible too. Personally, I think they simply abandoned the upgrades to keep the balance, which might translate in a better fighting performance than priorizing one or two abilities over the others.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, perhaps they don't value power as much as you think. Even after a second trip in RoSaT, Vegeta was still behind Goku's Super Saiyan and he didn't bother to use his "Super Vegeta" form against the Cell Jrs.

Well that's the point in contention here. Vegeta could simply be maxed out in power already and so he can't turn Super Vegeta, when he fights the Cell Jrs.

But the point of Super Saiyan Full Power was to abandon Grades 2 & 3, not to merge them with Grade 1.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

[apex_pretador]

Well, perhaps they don't value power as much as you think. Even after a second trip in RoSaT, Vegeta was still behind Goku's Super Saiyan and he didn't bother to use his "Super Vegeta" form against the Cell Jrs.

Well that's the point in contention here. Vegeta could simply be maxed out in power already and so he can't turn Super Vegeta, when he fights the Cell Jrs.

But the point of Super Saiyan Full Power was to abandon Grades 2 & 3, not to merge them with Grade 1.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

^^^^ implication that they can raise their battle power more in the "Super Saiyan" State than grade forms.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, that's a fair conclusion. It seems to hold some connection with abandoning SS2 and SS3 too, which causes "their levels to raise more and sap less strength". Since they are used to SS, it's feasible to ellect the base form as the best for training. They also must have tried to get used to Super Saiyan Blue, though, explaining why Golden Freeza was an incomplete evolution. And at some point, Goku must have tried to combine it with kaioken, but only accomplishing it in the heat of moment.

[LightBing]

By the way that quote is a fair argument against multipliers, at the very least fix multipliers. Further supported by Mr.Toriyama line saying SSJ can get stronger than SSJ2 and SSJ3.

[RandomGuy96]

I think the boost provided by Grade II is just small. Small enough that the stamina drain associated with it is a dealbreaker. It's never implied to be particularly large anyway. Trunks heavily implies that Vegeta was comfortably above Semi-Perfect Cell with just his regular Super Saiyan, and when Vegeta does use Grade II, he's still not all that far above Cell. Cell takes several hard blows and gets back up, and the one punch he lands on Vegeta staggers the prince and gives him a lip bleed.

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan for the Cell arc?

Fodder Squad, circa Gero's arrival:
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 800,000

I'm more generous than most, and base my estimate off of Gero's comments. He implied that absorbing the energy of the humans, Gohan, and a suppressed Piccolo (said to be weaker than base Vegeta) would give him a noticeable boost (enough to put him above a weakened SS Vegeta), and he considered Yamcha's power to be a worthy addition, which wouldn't be the case if Yamcha was like 0.1% of his strength. Also, the humans were able to keep up with sick!base Goku's travel speed (while flying that speed had Goku huffing and puffing), and Tenshinhan was able to dodge Gero's eye beams about as easily as base Goku was, suggesting they're around the same level.

What are your numbers for Roshi, Jaco, Tagoma and Shisami in FnF?

Roshi: 139
-Buff: ~1,390

Jaco: 100-ish

Tagoma [RF]: 20,000
Tagoma [Super]: ~2,000,000,000*

Shisami [Super]: 21,000
Shisami [RF]: ~1,600,000,000

*This is him at full capacity, with Ginyu in control.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But the point of Super Saiyan Full Power was to abandon Grades 2 & 3, not to merge them with Grade 1.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

^^^^ implication that they can raise their battle power more in the "Super Saiyan" State than grade forms.

Vegeta is talking about Goku & Gohan raising their battle power from the relaxed state they are now, which feels like they are not Super Saiyans, to full power.

[apex_pretador]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan for the Cell arc?

Fodder Squad, circa Gero's arrival:
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 800,000

Isn't that really, really, REALLY too much?
All he does is getting called really weak.
Him being above Nail, let alone 1st form F is too much IMO.

[ZombieVito]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan for the Cell arc?

Fodder Squad, circa Gero's arrival:
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 800,000

Isn't that really, really, REALLY too much?
All he does is getting called really weak.
Him being above Nail, let alone 1st form F is too much IMO.

Well he did say he was very generous and besides nothing contradicts him being that high.

[RandomGuy96]

What are your numbers for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan for the Cell arc?

Fodder Squad, circa Gero's arrival:
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 800,000

Isn't that really, really, REALLY too much?
All he does is getting called really weak.
Him being above Nail, let alone 1st form F is too much IMO.

I just made him about 1/3 of Tenshinhan's strength, because that's exactly where he was in the Saiyan arc, and he and Ten have done the same training since then.

[DanielSSJ]

I just made him about 1/3 of Tenshinhan's strength, because that's exactly where he was in the Saiyan arc, and he and Ten have done the same training since then.

That's pretty much what I do when doing Chaozu's levels.
My numbers are a bit different. Since I kinda see 1st Form Freeza as a line they never quite cross, I cleverly/lazily put them on par with some of the characters leading up to the start of the Freeza fight.

- Kuririn: 250,000
- Tenshinhan: 120,000
- Yamcha: 90,000
- Chaozu: 30,000

[ahill1]

@Kaboom: where do you have Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Gohan during Mecha Freeza's arrival?

[VegetaSSJBlue]

What are your numbers for Vegetto (SS1, SS2, SS3) and Goku SSG?

[DanielSSJ]

What are your numbers for Vegetto (SS1, SS2, SS3) and Goku SSG?

I'm not 100% clear on how powerful the characters are in Super, but...
Goku - 100 million
SS - 5 billion
SS3 40 billion
Vegetto - 20 billion
SS - 1 trillion
SS3 - 8 trillion
SS God Goku - a tentative 30 trillion

[ZombieVito]

What are your numbers for Vegetto (SS1, SS2, SS3) and Goku SSG?

I'm assuming an hypothetical BoG Vegetto right?

Vegetto: 10,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 500,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 1,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 4,000,000,000,000

Goku [Super Saiyan God]: 6,000,000,000,000