Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

You know, all this incessant power-related talk lately seems to have had at least one good effect on me. I'm starting to like the SEG's "suggested" boost for Super Saiyan 3 a little bit the more I think about it. Because I think I know what they were going for. So let's assume that the "4x SSj2 strength" thing is talking about just Ki, which is synonymous with "Battle Power," and so it's a 400x boost over the base form.

At first, I didn't really like that. For one, it seemed way too bloated, to the point where it didn't mesh well with the match-ups within the story. Second, it seemed way too close to the most obvious and logical boost for Super Saiyan 4, which would be 500x base (SSj's 50x combined with Oozaru's 10x). I know GT isn't really important, but I care in particular because of GTR, and my "in-universe specialist" side likes to keep things lined up in that department, even within my own pet projects.

But now that I think about it, I think I know the reasoning behind claiming it's such a massive boost. And that main reason would be the inherent flaw in SSj3 -- the downright obscene rate at which energy is wasted. I think what they might be trying to convey is that even if SSj3 generates Ki a whopping four times more than SSj2... a massive amount of that actually gets wasted, and hence Goku isn't actually fighting on that level. With all the Ki that's essentially going down the drain, Goku's actual combat level might be considerably less than that; perhaps only somewhere between 200x-300x his normal form.

Let's pick some arbitrary numbers to test this out, and see how it makes the final battle with Kid Boo work out...

Son Goku - 25,000,000

• Super Saiyan 3 (full output, x400) - 10,000,000,000
  Super Saiyan 3 (combat level, x250) - 6,250,000,000

Kid Boo - 6,000,000,000
Vegeta - 22,000,000

• Super Saiyan 2 - 2,300,000,000

So how do things work out that way? Goku at Super Saiyan 3 is fighting a mostly-even battle with Kid Boo, managing to hold his own and even maintain a bit of an advantage. Vegeta pops in and tells him, "focus your power and you can annihilate him!" Well, it's true! Goku is stuck fighting at a certain level, and needs time to gather up and put out his full SSj3 power, which certainly is enough to wipe Boo out. But he can't manage to do so in a living body, and eventually he loses too much Ki and the form with it.

So depending on how one might apply this idea, it could possibly fix a lot of the "problems" with the Boo arc's power comparisons. It even works with 500x for SSj4! The actual raw Ki generated by SSj3 might approach that of SSj4, but the form is so unusable, especially for the child-sized Goku, that it's useless. The gap ends up seeming huge when he reaches SSj4, which has all that power and more, but with no limitations in using it. Whereas SSj3 Goku couldn't lay a hand on Baby, Baby's punches are now ticking SSj4 Goku.

So, long story short: Super Saiyan 3 puts out an amazingly bloated amount of power, but Goku can't actually fight at that level because so much of that Ki goes to waste.

The one thing I'm still kinda stumped on is how the same concept may or may not apply to Gotenks; would more of his energy go to waste? Less of it? Or does that weakness ONLY translate into lessening his Fusion time, and not effect his power output at all? Or does he also have a significant energy drain, of which the reduced Fusion time is a direct result?

It could take some thought. One way or another, I think I'll try out this approach the next time I make a Boo-arc list.

[Godo]

The one thing I'm still kinda stumped on is how the same concept may or may not apply to Gotenks; would more of his energy go to waste? Less of it? Or does that weakness ONLY translate into lessening his Fusion time, and not effect his power output at all? Or does he also have a significant energy drain, of which the reduced Fusion time is a direct result?

It seems like that Gotenks' fusion is more dependent on the fusion time rather than ki itself. There were several times that we saw Gotenks using absurdly strong attacks who were in actual SSJ3 levels (such as the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack), and he was only a SSJ then. To add, he wasn't even winded!
So I think that Gotenks more or less has "infinite" energy, and all SSJ3 does is to affect the fusion time.
This would also function with your theory, and also describe how Gotenks became so strong (he could use the full extent of his SSJ3 power) compared to Goku.

[Kaboom]

So basically, you're suggesting that Gotenks isn't obscenely more powerful than Goku, only that he can use more or all of SSj3's power and thus seems that way?

Hmmm... it's interesting, but I don't think it's totally supportable. After I posted, I flipped through the manga to see what the deal is. When the kids are talking about the form, Goten does note that it uses up a lot of energy, leaving them exhausted. Trunks then notes that as such, they could only sustain it for five minutes AND it canceled their Fusion time. So thus far, it seems Gotenks would suffer the same energy-drain downside, in addition to it shortening their Fusion time.

So maybe this could work out better than I thought.

[hleV]

Well Gotenks is far stronger than Goku and I'm pretty sure he practiced SSJ3 in ROSAT for a while, getting used to its energy drain, etc. So the energy drain for Gotenks shouldn't be that bad compared to Goku's.

[Godo]

After I posted, I flipped through the manga to see what the deal is. When the kids are talking about the form, Goten does note that it uses up a lot of energy, leaving them exhausted. Trunks then notes that as such, they could only sustain it for five minutes AND it canceled their Fusion time. So thus far, it seems Gotenks would suffer the same energy-drain downside, in addition to it shortening their Fusion time.

I guess that you are right, I too seem to remember them totally winded after training with the SSJ3 now that you mention it. Maybe it's Gotenks' generally absurd ki that kept him going harder than Goku could, in that case.

[Kaboom]

Alrighty, I tossed together a list using my new SSj3 theory.

MULTIPLIERS:

Super Saiyan - 50x
Super Saiyan 2 - 100x
Super Saiyan 3 - < 400x


Son Gohan - 20,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 1,000,000,000
  Super Saiyan 2 - 2,000,000,000
  Ultimate - 20,000,000,000

• Gohan has lost a significant amount of power since the Cell Games. His "Ultimate" powerup rockets him up to a level that makes Goku's SSj3 look wimpy in comparison. On that note, his full power is equal to Gotenks' at SSj3, but much more effective because there's zero energy drain, making him appear stronger.

Son Goten - 7,500,000

• Super Saiyan - 375,000,000

Kid Trunks - 8,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 400,000,000

Android 18 - 275,000,000

• The boys are crazy-strong for their age, and are a serious threat to Android 18.

Vegeta - 24,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 1,200,000,000
  Super Saiyan 2 - 2,400,000,000
  Majin SSj2 - 2,750,000,000

• Vegeta has handily surpassed Gohan and achieved SSj2, but needs the boost from Bobbidi to match Goku.

Son Goku - 27,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 1,350,000,000
  Super Saiyan 2 - 2,700,000,000
  Super Saiyan 3 - 8,000,000,000
  SSj3 Full-power (x400) - 11,000,000,000

• The crux of this particular list. Goku has gained incredible power and achieved the awesomeness that is Super Saiyan 3. This form generates an amazing amount of power, but so much of it goes to waste that his regular combat level is somewhat lower.

Piccolo - 750,000,000

Piccolo's increased in power since the Cell Games, but Kaioshin is stronger than him.

Kaioshin - 850,000,000

• Fused with Kibito - 1,750,000,000

• Kaioshin is, like his compatriots of olde, strong enough to defeat Freeza "in a single blow," but pales in comparison to Majin Boo, even after Fusion.

Kibito - 25,000,000

• Kibito is primarily a healer and supporter for Kaioshin, but is strong enough on his own that Gohan can't beat him without Super Saiyan.

Pui Pui - 250,000
Yakon - 8,000,000

• Pui Pui sucks. Yakon sucks a little less.

Dabra - 1,250,000,000

• Dabra is strong enough that SSj Gohan can put up a fight, but ultimately not win. Either Goku or Vegeta could beat him without much trouble, though.

Gotenks - 45,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000

Post-RoSaT - 50,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
  Super Saiyan 3 - 15,000,000,000
  (SSj3 Full Power - 20,000,000,000)

• As a Super Saiyan, Gotenks is comparable to the Super Saiyan 2s, but ultimately can't measure up to Majin Boo. Boo takes him too lightly, and ends up biting off more than he can chew once Gotenks whips out SSj3. Gotenks suffers the same draining effects as Goku, though, to the point where his Fusion time is reduced by the stage.

Majin Boo
Fat Boo - 6,000,000,000
Skinny - 3,500,000,000
Mister Boo - 2,500,000,000

• Fat Boo is far stronger than Super Gotenks or the SSj2s can handle, but Super Saiyan 3 Goku could have made short work of him all along. When Mister Boo splits into two, his manifested evil side takes most of the power with him. When Mister Boo makes his return later, he has been reduced to an SSj2-level fighter, and only lasts against Kid Boo longer than Vegeta because of his regenerative abilities.

Super - 15,000,000,000

• + Gotenks - 30,000,000,000
  + Piccolo - 15,750,000,000
  + Gohan - 35,000,000,000

Buff - 20,000,000,000

• Super Boo is much more powerful than the prior combination of his two halves, now that his evil side is in control and suppressing less of his power. When he adds Gotenks to himself, he is able to totally outclass Gohan. Gotenks' Fusion time running out re-turns the tables again, but then absorbing Gohan in turn reclaims him the lead. After all the absorbed fighters are removed from him, Mister Boo included, his power temporarily spikes in his "buff" form before getting much smaller again as Kid Boo.

Kid - 7,500,000,000

• Kid Boo is amazingly strong, and Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the only guy around who can fight him. Though Goku maintains a slight edge, he isn't allowed the opportunity to build up his full power to easily finish the job. It ultimately takes a Spirit Bomb to do so.

Super Vegetto - 50,000,000,000

• Super Vegetto's true power is essentially infinite and beyond calculable limits. The number presented here is a representation of the bare minimum which would be required of him to so easily outclass and humiliate Super Gohan-Boo the way he did.

I think that worked out pretty well. I'm off to see if I can apply the same concept to my numbers for GTR.

[Xyex]

I don't know man. This forum is notorious for Base Power Nerfing. Hell, I would think you guys would even try to deny the simple facts that Base Goku >= Paikuhan Weights, and Paikuhan Weights is able to one shot both King Cold and Freeza.

Which would mean Base Goku is way superior to Freeza and King Cold post Cell Games... Freeza > Base Vegetto is just unreasonable don't you think?

There are many many issues with taking the Otherworld filler arc and using it as proof that base Goku is stronger than Freeza.

1) First and foremost, it's filler, so it's not (exactly) valid evidence. Toei is crap with power matching, as evidence by a lot of their movies and GT.
2) Weighted Pikkon not only took out Freeza in a single hit, but also Cell, so if you take this scene to mean weighted Pikkon > Freeza it must also mean weighted Pikkon > Cell which would then imply base Goku > Cell, which we know is false.
3) Freeza was most certainly NOT power-ed up at that point. At most, his power was the same as when he started fighting Goku on Namek, and Android saga base Goku could one-shot that level of Freeza's 4th form power.
4) Cell also had no reason to be anywhere near full power at this point. No reason to be much higher at all in strength than Freeza. Until Goku and Pikkon showed up he was the best there, he didn't power up after the two arrived, and he wasn't expecting any challenge from Pikkon.

Thus scene only supports the idea that weighted Pikkon = base Goku > heavily supressed Freeza and Cell. Which is something we already knew.

Alrighty, I tossed together a list using my new SSj3 theory.

Looks cool, though I still don't buy that SSJ Goten and Trunks are so much over 18 in power. >.>

[Kaboom]

Looks cool, though I still don't buy that SSJ Goten and Trunks are so much over 18 in power. >.>

Yeah, that was kind of arbitrarily picked because since I don't bother with Fusion multipliers anymore, the power of the un-fused kids is kind of unimportant. Not to mention that I'm not really strict with the "ratios" between fighters either. The gap between the kids and 18 there is roughly the same as the official one between SSj Goku and Freeza (3-to-2), the latter of whom could certainly at least put up a great fight. So it seems okay to me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I decided to make a comparison list like Senzu_Bean, since I've given up on battle power lists. I'm also going to be using Herms' battle outcome scale. Unfortunately, I think I put too much thought into it, which is the exact reason I decided to stop creating battle power lists.

=: lose 50%-60% of the time
>: lose 61%-75% of the time
>>: lose 76%-90% of the time
>>>: lose 91%-100% of the time
____________________________________________

Search for the Dragon Balls arc

Kame-sennin
>> Son Gokû
> Yamcha
> Kuririn

21st Tenka’ichi Budôkai arc

Kame-sennin
= Son Gokû
> Namu
> Kuririn
> Yamcha

Red Ribbon Army arc

Karin
>> Son Gokû, post-Karin
> Tao Pai Pai
>> Arale
> Android #8
>> Kame-sennin
= Son Gokû
>> General Blue
> Kuririn
> Yamcha

Uranai Baba arc

Son Gokû
= Son Gohan
>> Akkuman
>> Mummy-kun
>> Kame-sennin
>> Kuririn
> Yamcha
>>> Suke-san
>> Dracula Man

22nd Tenka’ichi Budôkai arc

Son Gokû
= Tenshinhan
= Kame-sennin
>> Tsuru-sennin
> Kuririn
= Yamcha
>> Chaozu
> King Chapa
>> Panput

Piccolo Daimaô arc

God
>> Mr. Popo
>> Son Gokû, post-Super God Water
= Young Piccolo Daimaô
>>> Drum
> Old Piccolo Daimaô
>>> Karin
= Son Gokû
= Tenshinhan
= Yajirobe
= Kame-sennin
>> Tambourine
> Cymbal
> Kuririn
= Yamcha
>> Chaozu

23rd Tenka’ichi Budôkai arc

Son Gokû, w/o weights
= Piccolo
>> God
>>> Son Gokû, w/weights
= Tenshinhan
>> Cyborg Tao Pai Pai
= Kuririn
> Yamcha
> Yajirobe
> Chaozu
> Kame-sennin
>>> Chi-Chi

Saiyan arc – the battle with Raditz

Raditz
>>> Son Gokû
= Piccolo
>>> God
>> Mr. Popo
>> Tenshinhan
>> Kuririn
> Yamcha
>> Chaozu
> Yajirobe
> Kame-sennin

Saiyan arc – the battle with Vegeta

Vegeta
>> Son Gokû
> Nappa
>> Piccolo
>> Tenshinhan
> Kuririn
> Yamcha
> Saibaimen
> Son Gohan
> Chaozu
> Yajirobe

Freeza arc – the battle with Freeza’s henchmen

Captain Ginyu, full power
>> Son Gokû
= Captain Ginyu
>> Recoom
= Jheese
= Butta
>> Vegeta, post-Zenkai
> Zarbon, transformed
> Vegeta
> Zarbon
= Dodoria
> Kiwi
>>> Son Gohan
> Kuririn
>>> Gurd

Freeza arc – the battle with Freeza

Super Saiyan Gokû
= Freeza, full power
>>> Freeza, 50%
>>> Freeza, suppressed
= Son Gokû
>> Vegeta, post-Zenkai
> third-form Freeza
>> Piccolo
= Second-form Freeza
>>> First-form Freeza
= Vegeta
> Son Gohan, post-Zenkai
>>> Son Gohan
> Kuririn

Cell arc – the arrival of Trunks

Super Saiyan Gokû
> Super Saiyan Trunks
>> Freeza
> King Cold
>>> Son Gokû
> Trunks
> Vegeta
> Piccolo
>>> Son Gohan
>>> Kuririn
> Tenshinhan
>> Yamcha

Cell arc – the battle with the Androids

Android #17
= Android #18
= Super Saiyan Vegeta
= Super Saiyan Goku
> Super Saiyan Trunks
>> Piccolo
>>> Android #20
> Android #19
>>> Vegeta
> Son Gokû
> Trunks
>> Son Gohan
>>> Kuririn
> Tenshinhan
>> Yamcha

Cell arc – the battle with Cell

Super Saiyan 3rd Grade Trunks
>> Perfect Cell, suppressed
>> Super Saiyan 2nd Grade Vegeta
= Super Saiyan 2nd Grade Trunks
>>> Semi-Perfect Cell
>>> Imperfect Cell, post-human absorption
= Android #16
>>> Piccolo, merged with God
= Android #17
= Android #18
>> Imperfect Cell

Cell arc – the Cell Games

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
= Super Perfect Cell
>> Perfect Cell, bulked-up
>> Perfect Cell, full power
>> Super Saiyan Gohan
= Perfect Cell, suppressed
> Super Saiyan Gokû
>> Cell Junior
= Super Saiyan Vegeta
= Super Saiyan Trunks
> Piccolo

Majin Boo arc – the battle with Bobbodi’s warriors

Fat Boo
>> Super Saiyan 2 Gokû
= Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta
> Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
> Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
>>> Dabra
= Super Saiyan Gohan
>> Kaiôshin
>> Piccolo
>> Super Saiyan Trunks
= Super Saiyan Goten
> Android #18
>>> Yakon
> Son Gokû
> Vegeta
> Son Gohan
= Kibito
>>> Trunks
= Son Goten
>> Tenshinhan
>> Kuririn
>> Yamcha
>>> Pui Pui
>>> Yamu
= Spopovich
> Videl
> Mr. Satan

Majin Boo arc – the battle with Boo

Super Saiyan Vegetto
>>> Super Gohan Boo
>> Super Gotenks Boo
>> Ultimate Gohan
>> Super Piccolo Boo
> Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
= Super Boo
>> Super Saiyan 3 Gokû
> Kid Boo
>> Super Saiyan Gotenks
> Fat Boo
>> Evil Boo
>> Mr. Boo
= Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta

[p123]

Raditz Saga



Roshi 139
Yamcha 177
Kuririn 206
Tien 250

Goku
~ Weights 334
~Full Power 416
~Kamehameha 924

Raditz 1,250

Gohan
~ Rage 1 710
~ Rage 2 1,307

Piccolo
~ Weights 322
~Full Power 408
~ Light of Death 1,330





Vegeta Saga



Saibamen 1,200
Gohan 1,200
Yamcha 1,300
Kuririn 1,500
Tien 1,800
Piccolo 2,300

Injured Tien 500
~ Kikoho 2,500

Rage Gohan 2,400
~ Masenko 2,800


Nappa
~ Against Z Fighters 3,000
~ Full Power 8,000


Goku 8,050
~ Kaioken 16,100
~ Kaioken x3 24,150 ( Rapidly Decreasing )
~ KKx3 Kaioken 33,971 ( Rapidly Decreasing )
~ Kaioken x4 32,200 ( Rapidly Decreasing )
~ KKx4 Kamehameha 42,021 ( Rapidly Decreasing )


Vegeta 18,000
~ Galick Gun 34,000
~ Oozaru 180,000






Namek Saga

Freeza's Henchmen 1,200
Gohan 1,500

Kuririn
~ Weights 1,500
~ Full Power 1,770

Appule 2,000
Namekians 3,000
Kiwi 18,000
Dodoria 20,000
Vegeta 24,000

Zarbon 22,000
~ Transformed 28,000



Ginyu Saga Part 1

Guldo 5,000
Kuririn 10,500
Gohan 13,500

Vegeta 30,000
~ Blast 35,000

Reecome 40,000
Burter 40,000
Jeice 40,000
Nail 42,000
Captain Ginyu 120,000

Goku 90,000
~ Kaioken 180,000



Ginyu Saga Part 2

Kuririn 23,000
Ginyu in Goku 23,000
Gohan 30,000
Vegeta 75,000



Freeza Saga Part 1

Kuririn 150,000

Gohan 250,000

Piccolo W/Weights 275,000
~ Full Power 300,000

Vegeta 475,000

Freeza 530,000

Hypothetical Kamiccolo
~ W/Weights 550,000
~ Full Power 600,000

Turles
~ Initially 30,000
~ Fruit ( 1 ) 400,000
~ Fruit ( 2 ) 750,000




The hypothetical Kamiccolo is the suggestion that Nail makes about Piccolo's strength. IMO, Kami doubles Piccolo's power, so Nail thinks that Kamiccolo >= Freeza, and I have provided a range for that...


Freeza Saga Part 2


Gohan 250,000
~ Rage 1,000,000


Freeza 2nd Form
~ Initially 1,060,000
~ Power Up 1 1,200,000
~ Full Power 1,400,000


Piccolo W/Weights 1,250,000
~ W/o Weights 1,500,000




Freeza Saga Part 3

Gohan 400,000
~ Rage 1,600,000
~ Rage Blast 1,900,000


Freeza 3rd Form 2,000,000


Vegeta 2,250,000
~ Blast 3,000,000


Freeza True Form 3,330,000



Freeza Saga Part 4


Freeza 3,300,000
~ 50% 72,500,000
~ 70% 101,500,000
~ 100% 145,000,000 ( Rapidly Decreasing )


Goku 3,000,000
~ Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 60,000,000 ( Rapidly Decreasing )
~ KKx20 Kamehameha 63,600,000 ( Rapidly Decreasing )
~ Spirit Bomb 75,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 150,000,000





What do you guys think? Kamehameha is always a 2.22x multiplier, but it cannot be multiplied off of Kaioken...

[Godo]

I made this experimental Damage-O-Meter, trying to put into work the theory about how damage affects a fight overall. I used the Goku vs. Freeza fight as an example.


Initial:
Goku: 3,000,000
Freeza 1%: 4,000,000

Round 1: Let’s see what you’ve got!
Goku: 3,000,000
- General battle: 2,900,000
- Hand injury: 2,800,000
Freeza 1%: 4,000,000
- General battle: 3,900,000
- Eye beams: 3,850,000
- Kiaiho damage: 3,800,000
- Hand blast: 3,000,000

Round 2: Come get me!
Goku: 2,800,000
- Blasted into water: 2,750,000
- Mini Kamehameha: 2,650,000
- Trapped in Freeza’s blast and the effects: 2,500,000
Freeza 1%: 3,000,000
- Damage from kick: 2,900,000
- Rock throw: 2,800,000

Round 3: No hands!
Goku: 2,500,000
- Kaioken x2: 5,000,000
- Damage from kick: 4,800,000
- Face punch: 4,700,000
Freeza 1%: 3,000,000
- Thrown into rock: 2,900,000
- Punch and kick to face: 2,800,000
- Tail bitten: 2,780,000
- Barrage of hits: 2,500,000

Round 4: 50%!!!
Goku: 2,350,000
- Kaioken x 10: 23,500,000
- Barrage of hits: 21,000,000
- Kaioken x20: 42,000,000
- After Kamehameha: 35,000,000
- Without Kaioken x20: 1,750,000
Freeza: 2,500,000
- 50%: 62,500,000
- Punch in the face: 62,000,000
- Blocking Kamehameha: 60,000,000

Round 5: Genki-Dama!!
Goku: 1,750,000
- Damage: 1,250,000
Freeza: 60,000,000
- Piccolo kick: Damage non-existant.
- After Genki-dama: 35,000,000

Round 6: The Super Saiya-jin of legend!!
Goku: 1,250,000
- SSJ: 62,500,000
- After damage: 50,000,000

Freeza: 35,000,000
- After damage by Goku and Death Ball: 25,000,000
- 100%: 50,000,000
- Burned out: 30,000,000
__________________________________________________
With this, it makes sense that:
- Piccolo could phase a non-expecting Freeza with a kick in the head
- Gohan and Kuririn's blasts were even noticed by Freeza
- The Genki-Dama had enough energy to bring down Freeza

Keep in mind that this is an experimental list only, where I play around with the concept. Would be nice if you guys tried this out too.

[Son Edo]

Cell Arc Pre Cell Games USSJ2 Trunks>USSJ Vegeta>USSJ Trunks>Complete Cell (Ki Suppression)>>Semi Complete Cell>SSJ Vegeta (ROSAT)>SSJ Trunks (ROSAT)>Semi Complete Cell (Ki Suppression)>>A16=Incomplete Cell (Post Absorption)>>Picckami=A17>A18>SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Son Goku>SSJ Trunks>Piccolo>A20>A19>>>Base Vegeta>Base Son Goku>>Son Gohan>Tenshinhan>Kuririn>Yamcha

[dbgtFO]

Editing my previous chart to include my new opinion on things in the Buu Arc backed up by manga, uncontradicted filler and guidebook facts.

Strongest guys on top, so that means the equations are in relation to the guy above fx.

Goku
>>> Mr. Satan

Means: Goku is way, way stronger than Mr. Satan.

= - equal to
>= - slightly stronger than
> - stronger than
>> - way stronger than
>>> - way, way stronger than.

Toriyama Akira
= Manga
>= Manga Specific Guidebooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>() Vegetto, Super Saiyan
>>> Vegetto
>= Majin Buu, Evil w/Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks & Goten
> Majin Buu, Evil w/Gotenks & Piccolo
>> Gohan, The Mightiest Warrior
= Majin Buu, Pure w/South Kaioshin
> Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3
>= Majin Buu, Evil w/Piccolo, Goten & Trunks
>= Majin Buu, Evil
>>> Gotenks, Super Saiyan 2
>> Gotenks, Super Saiyan
>>> Gotenks
>>> Gotenks, Super Saiyan pre RoSaT
>>> Goku, Super Saiyan 3
>= Majin Buu, Pure
> Majin Buu, Fat
>> Majin Buu, Fat Power Up
> Gotenks, pre RoSaT
> Majin Buu, Pure Evil
> Vegeta(Prince of Destruction), Super Saiyan 2
= Goku, Super Saiyan 2
> Gohan(Kid), Super Saiyan 2
>= Vegeta, Super Saiyan 2
> Cell, Near Death Power Up
= Mr. Buu
= Fat Buu, initially
= Dabra
>= Gohan, Super Saiyan 2
>> Cell, Power-weighted
>> Vegeta(PoD), Super Saiyan
= Goku, Super Saiyan
> Vegeta, Super Saiyan
> Cell, Full Power
= Goku's initial estimation of Dabra's strength
> Gohan, Super Saiyan
>>> Umigame
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>() Random Fans' interpretations.

[Godo]

() Vegetto, Super Saiyan
> Umigame

Fixed!

USSJ2 Trunks>Complete Cell (Ki Suppression)>USSJ Vegeta>USSJ Trunks

It's stated that Trunks as a USSJ2 is stronger than Suppressed Complete Cell (Cell even stated this).

[Senzu_Bean]

Does it looks bad if I say Piccolo never surpassed #16, even after he trained one year in the RoSaT?

[dbgtFO]

() Vegetto, Super Saiyan
> Umigame

Fixed!

You're right, what was I thinking

Does it looks bad if I say Piccolo never surpassed #16, even after he trained one year in the RoSaT?

How much Piccolo powered up post RoSat/in the Buu Arc is completely up for interpretation, so I guess you could make him as weak as possible, as long as it fulfills him being on an entirely different level than before(ie. far stronger than #17 at this point).

[p123]

Sensu, Piccolo not surpassing 16 is completely plausible. 16/Cell level of power, is capable of completely tanking a fully charged Light Grenade. I think the gap between Piccolo and Cell, is overlooked.

I have always thought of Light Grenade at least doubling Piccolo's power. I know you guy's don't like doing things like that, but just displaying my POV on that.

To tank an attack, IMO, does not mean just to be superior to it. You have to be completely superior to it as well...


Cell >> Light Grenade >> PIccolo


In my numbers, I have Cell at 3x Piccolo, and Piccolo's Light Grenade doubling his power. Piccolo's progression? Many like Piccolo doubling his power, which would make 16 > Piccolo considering the above.


Personally, I choose to make Piccolo = Initial Semi Cell. I remember keeping 16 > Piccolo, but then in the Cell Games, it's like I don't know, I never picked up on Piccolo being so weak. Or 16 > Piccolo. I always felt that the Z Senshi > 16 at this point, except for the humans at least.

But that's up to personal interpretation.

16 > Piccolo Post Rosat, is completely plausible though, we have no clue how much Piccolo powered up. But I doubt you will find many people who agree with you on that.


Hell many people think that Piccolo > USSJ Vegeta, which IMO, is out of control. I don't see a reason for Piccolo's progression to be higher than SSJ progression Post rosat, which I was trying to get into before with you. SSJ Trunks/Vegeta Rosat 1 are somewhere around Initial Semi Cell.

Piccolo shouldn't be progressing as fast as a Rosat Super Saiyan IMO. USSJ is a boost on top of SSJ, and Piccolo progressing past SSJ is crazy, let alone USSJ.

But most of the reason people hold to this, is Piccolo's feats against Cell Jr. WHich the manga hardly goes in-depth with.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Does it looks bad if I say Piccolo never surpassed #16, even after he trained one year in the RoSaT?

I can't possibly imagine why you'd have that opinion. Why? I thought that, if Piccolo's able to hold his own against a Cell Junior, then that would make him stronger than #16 by default.

[Senzu_Bean]

Does it looks bad if I say Piccolo never surpassed #16, even after he trained one year in the RoSaT?

I can't possibly imagine why you'd have that opinion. Why? I thought that, if Piccolo's able to hold his own against a Cell Junior, then that would make him stronger than #16 by default.

#16 never fought a Cell Jr. so I can't see how that can work.

[Godo]

Does it looks bad if I say Piccolo never surpassed #16, even after he trained one year in the RoSaT?

I can't possibly imagine why you'd have that opinion. Why? I thought that, if Piccolo's able to hold his own against a Cell Junior, then that would make him stronger than #16 by default.

#16 never fought a Cell Jr. so I can't see how that can work.

Let's try this logic then:

1) Vegeta was confident over his power after have seen only 50% of Goku's power.
2) Vegeta before entering the ROSAT for the second time nerfed Piccolo heavily (16 and Semi-perfect Cell too).
3) After the ROSAT it's safe to assume that Vegeta's confidence lies within surpassing Goku's 50% FPSSJ power.
4) Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo stood up after the beating they recieved. A tired FPSSJ Goku, however, did not.

Ergo, Piccolo is stronger than a tired FPSSJ Goku, and weaker than Vegeta. So it's pretty safe to assume that he surpassed Android 16's power by quite a bit.
Just the fact that Piccolo can stand up getting the same treatment as Vegeta got by a Cell Jr. shows how much he has surpassed Android 16.
Android 16 couldn't even phase Semi-Perfect Cell, to add, let alone keep up with him.

Your thoughts?