Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

I do not understand this argument that the movies are more "canonical" to the Super anime??? Wouldn't the Super manga about the Super anime be considered more "canonical" to the Super anime than the movies created prior to there even being known there would be a series?

I'm really not understanding the reasoning for taking the information in the movies and applying it to the anime?

I agree with you. Movies dont fit with super but manga & anime both mix into each other perfectly well.

[ssbgoku]

I do not understand this argument that the movies are more "canonical" to the Super anime??? Wouldn't the Super manga about the Super anime be considered more "canonical" to the Super anime than the movies created prior to there even being known there would be a series?

I'm really not understanding the reasoning for taking the information in the movies and applying it to the anime?

I agree with you. Movies dont fit with super but manga & anime both mix into each other perfectly well.

Yeah that exactly what I meant. Basically if you accept retconn which has valid base and hints or proofs spread around anime that neither base goku or vegeta are longer god tier, also accepting that absorbing ssg power never meant to be fully accesible in base or even ss. Just them getting much stronger or improved over his buu arc.

In other words the only difference between anime and manga are goku using ssb kaiokenx10 against hit in anime and ssg in manga. What should stay consistent is this:

base->ss->ss2->ss3->ssg(in anime lack of it)->ssb->ssbx10kaioken(only anime).

Mr. Buu is above first form frieeza, and when you accept it, then rest become more clear and much more sensible especially with u6 participants

[buutenks]

The base saiyans= ssg got retconned when Whis made the tree and castle statement. By that point, their base forms were many times weaker than ssg and only by going ssj blue they could reach that level of power again.

Plus, Trunks fails to sense god ki, and then remembers what Beerus said. So even as ssj2 FP, he doesnt stand a chance vs base Goku, if Goku would actually be serious.

Still, maybe next ep will shed some light.

This is now a third take on power levels that I wasn't aware existed. Basically your thought is that they are around the same level as the manga and that there just is no SSG equivalent. So how do you explain the Frieza and Gotenks battles?

Easy, due to Whis training, their base forms became very strong. Id say stronger than buuhan perhaps, or maybe at that level. So, Gotenks wouldnt stand much of a chance. Plus, copy Vegeta didnt finger flick Ssj3 Gotenks, so he definitely isnt ssg level in base.

[HeroR]

All three versions of the story don't seem to sync up power level wise. They all presented something in one version that wasn't the same in another. They could and should have done a better job of making them all fit, maybe they didn't think it was too important because the story takes priority but it really wouldn't have hurt for their to be more consistency with each other.

The anime definitely seems closer to how it was portrayed in the movie though and the movie version is the most canonical version of that Battle of Gods and Resurrection F story of the three in my opinion.

It does look like some of the things Toriyama said have been changed or retconned and that's perfectly understandable because he said some of these things before he even knew there was gonna be another movie let alone a series.

Beerus in particular was surely retconned. He's been powered up compared to what he was in Battle of Gods just so that he can stay above Goku without limiting him from getting stronger.

Most fans don't care about power levels and the anime has slightly different power levels than the manga at times, like Future Trunks and Gohan being more powerful than they were in canon by making Trunks stomp Freeza and his dad head on instead of using a sneak attack, and Gohan able to fight off two androids when 17 alone killed him in the manga.

Fans just ignored the differences because, non-canon didn't happen, this is the true version'. Can't really do that with Super since we don't know Toriyama's notes and I doubt it would reveal much in terms power levels anyway.

[Bullza]

I wasn't saying the movies are more canonical to the anime. I'm saying that between the movie, anime and manga version of the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F story the movies should probably be considered the most canonical version because that was done by Toriyama and the other two were retellings done by different people.

Doesn't mean the anime or manga are wrong or anything, they just have their own set of powers and continuity. They aren't even trying to sync up with each other perfectly otherwise they wouldn't have brought Ginyu back to take over Tagoma.

Its just that the anime is closer to what the movies established when compared to the manga is all.

[TheMikado]

^ I think I understand what you are trying to say but the logic doesn't make sense. As far as the movie canon is concerned, so far nothing happened after RoF. So it's events can't even be used to discuss anything from Champa arc on. The movies were never created with those stories is mind. The real problem is this ludicrous idea of canon, more canon, and most canon that's through this entire franchise.

The short answer is you cannot apply the events from different media to another. The story aren't built that way. Super is the most recent updated version of this serialized story based on an outline that is the most recent version. For good or bad that's just what it is. You can LIKE the movies more, but nothing about them makes them the more accurate up to date version of the serialized story that the creator wants to tell in 2016.

[Bullza]

I mean with how in the anime Goku absorbed the power of God like he did in the movie. A hugely powered up Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza as he did in the movie.

However in the manga he didn't absorb the power of God and if he didn't then the events of Resurrection F must have played out very differently from the movie.

The anime is more inline with the movie and what Toriyama said about him making the power his own so he wouldn't need to turn into SSJG anymore. I'm not trying to apply them to one another I'm just saying the anime is more accurate to the original version.

If a person were to watch the movies first then wanted to see what happened next then the anime version of the Champa arc would make more sense to someone than the manga version of the Champa arc.

[DBZ Macky]

I mean with how in the anime Goku absorbed the power of God like he did in the movie. A hugely powered up Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza as he did in the movie.

However in the manga he didn't absorb the power of God and if he didn't then the events of Resurrection F must have played out very differently from the movie.

The anime is more inline with the movie and what Toriyama said about him making the power his own so he wouldn't need to turn into SSJG anymore. I'm not trying to apply them to one another I'm just saying the anime is more accurate to the original version.

If a person were to watch the movies first then wanted to see what happened next then the anime version of the Champa arc would make more sense to someone than the manga version of the Champa arc.

Can't we assume that Gotenks got weaker just like Gohan? Then you can have the one base theory but not so BLOATED as to say that they were SSJG level. Goku and Vegeta probably got a huge enough increase from Whis' training that they're as strong as their previous SSJ2/3 forms in their base and Gotenks probably got that much weaker. It sure does increase the credibility of Trunks getting somewhat close to that level.

Edit: For people who like to go with the narrative, Gotenks was implied to be weaker than SSJ3 Goku in BoG. This might explain that too.

[Bullza]

You'd still have to still explain Frieza though. Frieza in his first form was probably SSJ2/3 level himself and back on Namek his Final Form at 100% was well over 200 times more powerful than that.

Also Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku (and arguably Mystic Gohan) but he was still taken out with a restrained poke to the head while Base Goku and Vegeta were still conscious after taking what they said were unrestrained attacks.

****

On a side note that Goku vs Trunks fight really does kill the idea of their being two bases if you think about it.

[TheMikado]

You'd still have to still explain Frieza though. Frieza in his first form was probably SSJ2/3 level himself and back on Namek his Final Form at 100% was well over 200 times more powerful than that.

Also Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku (and arguably Mystic Gohan) but he was still taken out with a restrained poke to the head while Base Goku and Vegeta were still conscious after taking what they said were unrestrained attacks.

****

On a side note that Goku vs Trunks fight really does kill the idea of their being two bases if you think about it.

In the movie they specifically had the form "Saiyan beyond God" we aren't given any indication whether it's a temporary form or their permanent new base. If you say that he used the SbG form agains Gotenks and Frieza and he didn't in the Tournament and against Trunks because it can be turned on and off it fits even more "perfectly"

[DBZ Macky]

You'd still have to still explain Frieza though. Frieza in his first form was probably SSJ2/3 level himself and back on Namek his Final Form at 100% was well over 200 times more powerful than that.

Also Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku (and arguably Mystic Gohan) but he was still taken out with a restrained poke to the head while Base Goku and Vegeta were still conscious after taking what they said were unrestrained attacks.

****

On a side note that Goku vs Trunks fight really does kill the idea of their being two bases if you think about it.

I don't think the Goku vs Trunks fight kills the idea, Goku WAS gauging his opponent's power and went from weaker forms to stronger ones until he could overpower him in BOTH the manga AND the anime.

I still think that 226x multiplier from Freeza's first to final form are a real pain in the butt and were probably (who am I kidding, it's obviously) never considered when making the arc.

These are some theories that could be considered:

Freeza can choose how much to suppress his power in his other forms. This is HIGHLY likely.
OR
Freeza couldn't bring out his actual First Form's power and could bring it out more after training. 530,000 was simply the maximum of his real power he could output in his First Form. He later thought of increasing that number to 1,300,000 (Cut out in super but a line in the movie nonetheless, trying to fix a plot hole) but ended up increasing it even more.
OR
Freeza caught Gohan by surprise and was really even weaker than Tagoma but everyone knew he could transform in an instant and kill everyone with the kiai he releases when he transforms so no one dared to attack. This could possibly explain why Piccolo let Freeza transform into his 3rd Form too.

And about base Goku and Vegeta taking unrestrained attacks, They're obviously not unrestrained attacks. Beerus is at least 10 times stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta. We have seen insane durability but this one takes the cake and exceeds even gag scenes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

However in the manga he didn't absorb the power of God and if he didn't then the events of Resurrection F must have played out very differently from the movie.

It shouldn't be that different. Everything could have happened as in the movie, except that Goku & Freeza never fought in their base & final forms respectively, but instead went all out from the start in their Super Saiyan Blue & Golden forms. Vegeta would have also used Super Saiyan Blue from the moment he stepped in the battle instead of briefly starting in base.

[Bullza]

I don't think the Goku vs Trunks fight kills the idea, Goku WAS gauging his opponent's power and went from weaker forms to stronger ones until he could overpower him in BOTH the manga AND the anime.

No it's not how he stood up to Trunks but something else.

The only reason Goku fought Trunks was because as he said he wanted to see how he measured up to Black. Obviously he couldn't use Super Saiyan Blue for that because Trunks can't sense it so there's no way for Trunks to compare them so it'd defeat the purpose.

So you'd think that Goku would go for the next best thing which Trunks could sense. Which going by the two base theory would be Saiyan Beyond God which we know can be sensed.

But that's not what Goku uses. He uses Super Saiyan 3. As far as the anime is concerned that is Goku's strongest form that people can sense.

If there were any truth to the two base theory then Goku would have used the much stronger Saiyan Beyond God form against Trunks instead. He doesn't though because it's not as strong as his Super Saiyan forms.

[DBZ Macky]

I don't think the Goku vs Trunks fight kills the idea, Goku WAS gauging his opponent's power and went from weaker forms to stronger ones until he could overpower him in BOTH the manga AND the anime.

No it's not how he stood up to Trunks but something else.

The only reason Goku fought Trunks was because as he said he wanted to see how he measured up to Black. Obviously he couldn't use Super Saiyan Blue for that because Trunks can't sense it so there's no way for Trunks to compare them so it'd defeat the purpose.

So you'd think that Goku would go for the next best thing which Trunks could sense. Which going by the two base theory would be Saiyan Beyond God which we know can be sensed.

But that's not what Goku uses. He uses Super Saiyan 3. As far as the anime is concerned that is Goku's strongest form that people can sense.

If there were any truth to the two base theory then Goku would have used the much stronger Saiyan Beyond God form against Trunks instead. He doesn't though because it's not as strong as his Super Saiyan forms.

You may be correct. However, most of the people who believe in the "2-base theory" agree that "Saiyan Beyond God" >> SSJ3. So when Goku gauges Black through Trunks, He powers up in this order: SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SJBG/ SSJG in the Manga.
Simply speaking, Goku was able to overpower Trunks with SSJ3 in the anime and overkill him with SSJG in the manga. Therefore, Black must be at a level between SSJ3 and SSJG. Which means that SJBG should be enough to fight with him equally or even have the upper hand, hence he doesn't need to use the form since he has already understood the extent of Black's power by then.

[TheMikado]

^ that's the exact issue right now is that the SbG can be sensed. If that form couldn't be sensed there wouldn't be an argument now. The manga got around this by replacing the place where SbG would logically fit with SSG instead.

[Bullza]

I don't know if Goku fights Trunks for the same reason in the manga as he does in the anime. He may have just wanted to see how strong Trunks was instead. In the manga it doesn't look like there even is a Saiyan Beyond God, if he didn't absorb it then shouldn't be one.

But strictly going by the anime if Goku had a base form that was stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form then he'd have used that against Trunks.

Also if his Super Saiyan 3 was just as strong as it was in the Buu saga then there'd be no need for him to get excited about someone whose only slightly stronger than his hugely suppressed self.

[TheMikado]

I don't know if Goku fights Trunks for the same reason in the manga as he does in the anime. He may have just wanted to see how strong Trunks was instead. In the manga it doesn't look like there even is a Saiyan Beyond God, if he didn't absorb it then shouldn't be one.

But strictly going by the anime if Goku had a base form that was stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form then he'd have used that against Trunks.

Also if his Super Saiyan 3 was just as strong as it was in the Buu saga then there'd be no need for him to get excited about someone whose only slightly stronger than his hugely suppressed self.

Right, this exactly how it's presented in the manga, the anime is presented completely different. That's just how it is unfortunately.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys I am sure there will be uproar of rage or some everyone's reaction like "no this again", however I am really curious where base goku and vegeta currently are. Trying to gauge their level and compare them to z characters I will use Picoolo as example.

It was stated by Akira that Picoolo keep training and never stops or so I heard. Even although I would say Picoolo get weaker slightly but let's go by what was said.
We know that kid ssj2 gohan is close to majin vegeta ss2 and ss2 goku buu arc, that means Ss goku/vegeta are only a bit stronger then cell games ss gohan. In buu arc Picoolo was excited to fight goku and vegeta so he most likely included ss, also we know that in cell games Picoolo was above semi perfect cell but let's assume semi perfect cell. Now in dragon ball super, Picoolo would get to perfect cell power so base gohan would be only equal to kid ss gohan in cell games.

ss vegetto - 7680 x base gohan
final form freeza - 4520 x base gohan
rof dbs base goku/vegeta - 3616 x base gohan
Assault form frost - 3600 x base gohan
buuhan - 768 x base gohan
buutenks - 384 x base gohan
ultimate gohan - 192 x base gohan
ss3 gotenks - 96 x base gohan
dbs ss gohan - 50x base gohan
ss2 gotenks - 24 x base gohan
ss gotenks - 12 x base gohan
ssj3 goku - 8 x base gohan
fat buu - 6 x base gohan
Mr. buu - 3 x base gohan
kid ss2 gohan - 2 x base gohan
super perfect cell
rof dbs Picoolo = perfect cell
base gohan = cell games kid ss gohan
Picoolo with weights and cape = cell games ss goku

That would put ss gohan between ss3 gotenks and ss2 gotenks. Let's say At leat first form frieeza is above fat buu, as he can not be less then that. so let's go by him being equal to ss gotenks as he was about to fight him, although he wasn't too woried about him, so 20x base gohan. now we know that From First form to final form frieeza has to multiply his power by x226.

This way we got that both final form frieeza and base goku were above buuhan by rof, same with vegeta. Now we know that Assault form Frost is close to base goku/vegeta but I think weaker as goku wasn't going all out and was just finishing warm up or was just warming up. Also keep in mind base goki/vegeta were infferior to final form freeza in dbs, so I would say they were 0.8 of final form freeza.

No Picoolo power up seems ridiculous and over doing it no matter how you look at it... Frost would has to be below 1% of his power to make it sense... There is no way expect go by two base theory... or just accept everyone suprassed ss vegetto so z cast... no matter how ridiculous it sound....

[HeroR]

You'd still have to still explain Frieza though. Frieza in his first form was probably SSJ2/3 level himself and back on Namek his Final Form at 100% was well over 200 times more powerful than that.

Also Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku (and arguably Mystic Gohan) but he was still taken out with a restrained poke to the head while Base Goku and Vegeta were still conscious after taking what they said were unrestrained attacks.

****

On a side note that Goku vs Trunks fight really does kill the idea of their being two bases if you think about it.

There is no arguably, Rage Vegeta was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan in the movie only touched Beerus before getting two-shotted. Vegeta took a direct punch to the face and kept going and landed several hits. In Super, Gohan performed worse and Vegeta did even better.

[Cipher]

Wait, did the two-base theory just get a big boost of evidence? Seems everyone is subscribing to it now.

I really wish we'd drop that label/separate it into a "retcon" theory rather than "two bases."

I do believe there was a change in approach, but I don't think the anime ever intentionally implied a separate, Super Saiyan God-level base form -- the fact that it's the best fan-explanation for its contradictory approaches is just a result of poor communication.

Basically that "two-base" theory was right about everything besides there intentionally being an unstated two-base mechanic.