Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

^ pretty much this. I'm not sure why the name is so important to people though... It also doesn't help that we have people trying to refine "base" to seem 100% right either or that some how the movies are more canonical to the Super anime. I just fight it pretty likely that after realizing they were going to make an ongoing series that having overpowered protagonists out of the gate wasn't going to work long term for future stories. It's honestly probably one of the better decisions interms of storytelling to make as it shows forethought and an attempt to future proof the series. It just does little in the way of consistency is all.

[buutenks]

How can base Goku and Vegeta, survive an unrestraint ki blast from beerus if they are many times weaker? Clearly their base power got retconned to being many times weaker than Beerus and ssg level.

It was never stated in-universe that base=ssg.

And if base=ssg, why didnt copy Vegeta finger flick ssj3 Gotenks?

Basically, we do not know how strong is current base, ssj1-3. All we know for sure is that ssj blue is above Ssg.

[Bullza]

There is no arguably, Rage Vegeta was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan in the movie only touched Beerus before getting two-shotted. Vegeta took a direct punch to the face and kept going and landed several hits. In Super, Gohan performed worse and Vegeta did even better.

Well the arguable part depends on whether or not people consider Ultimate Gohan to be weaker than he was in the Buu arc. Did he progressively get weaker from the Buu saga or did he just rapidly decline from Battle of Gods? I'm fine with saying Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Not sure how others feel on it though.

How can base Goku and Vegeta, survive an unrestraint ki blast from beerus if they are many times weaker? Clearly their base power got retconned to being many times weaker than Beerus and ssg level.

I wouldn't overthink that, it might have just been a thing when they were still under the impression that Beerus wasn't even twice as strong as SSJG and maybe before any retcons have taken place. Just taking that scene into consideration at the time the episode came out, Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was taken out with a poke to the head by Beerus at 10%. Base Goku and Vegeta got caught with a loose limb and a smallish blast when he wasn't holding back and there were hurt but were still conscious.

Basically, we do not know how strong is current base, ssj1-3. All we know for sure is that ssj blue is above Ssg.

It's still not entirely clear but as of the start of the Resurrection F saga it was safe to say their Base strength was stronger than the likes of SSJ3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta by a comfortable margin and their Super Saiyan strength was as strong as Super Saiyan God. As of this arc they should be a good amount stronger than that I imagine.

The Super Saiyan multipliers are still in place and Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

[apex_pretador]

I do not understand this argument that the movies are more "canonical" to the Super anime??? Wouldn't the Super manga about the Super anime be considered more "canonical" to the Super anime than the movies created prior to there even being known there would be a series?

I'm really not understanding the reasoning for taking the information in the movies and applying it to the anime?

I agree with you. Movies dont fit with super but manga & anime both mix into each other perfectly well.

Yeah that exactly what I meant. Basically if you accept retconn which has valid base and hints or proofs spread around anime that neither base goku or vegeta are longer god tier, also accepting that absorbing ssg power never meant to be fully accesible in base or even ss. Just them getting much stronger or improved over his buu arc.

In other words the only difference between anime and manga are goku using ssb kaiokenx10 against hit in anime and ssg in manga. What should stay consistent is this:

base->ss->ss2->ss3->ssg(in anime lack of it)->ssb->ssbx10kaioken(only anime).

Mr. Buu is above first form frieeza, and when you accept it, then rest become more clear and much more sensible especially with u6 participants

Actually, I think that the only difference is Goku & vegeta's power level in manga and anime. In anime, they are more powerful in non-godly forms than manga. However, SSB (manga) is 10 times more pwoerful than anime.

I think it goes like this:
M = manga, A = anime

namek freeza << Base goku (M) < Piccolo < fat buu < SS3 gotenks < Base goku (A) < Frost < SS Cabba < SS Goku (M) << SS FT < SS2 goku (M) < SS Goku (A) = SS3 goku (M) = SS2 FT << Zamasu < SS2 goku (A) < Black (current timeline) <<< SS3 goku (A) << SSG Goku

[buutenks]

That would mean that current ssj3 is 400 times stronger than ssg, and in turn ssj blue is much stronger than that. So that is impossible.

Most likely is ssj1-3 and base form are below ssg and only ssj blue is stronger.

And again, copy Vegeta didn't finger flick Gotenks, so while he was stronger, the gap wasn't huge.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Another theory to explain the SSG power retcon by combining the movie & manga continuities: After Goku & Vegeta* learned how to turn into a Super Saiyan God at will, the power in their base forms re-merged with the SSG form, so after that their base forms returned back to their regular level.

*Vegeta is implied to have gone through SSG like Goku did in Toriyama's continuity. In BoG, Vegeta tells Goku to help him next time turn into a SSG. In a FnF interview, Toriyama stated that Goku went to train with Whis first, and then Vegeta followed him, so he didn't get extra training like in the anime.

[Bullza]

They said Super Saiyan Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku back in the BoG saga so SSJ1-3 couldn't be weaker than the SSJG who fought Beerus.

SSJ being around as strong as SSJG seems a better fit than than Base being as strong as SSJG. It'd make SSJ3 8+ times stronger than SSJG as opposed to 400+ times stronger which would be a bit farfetched.

[HeroR]

I agree with you. Movies dont fit with super but manga & anime both mix into each other perfectly well.

Yeah that exactly what I meant. Basically if you accept retconn which has valid base and hints or proofs spread around anime that neither base goku or vegeta are longer god tier, also accepting that absorbing ssg power never meant to be fully accesible in base or even ss. Just them getting much stronger or improved over his buu arc.

In other words the only difference between anime and manga are goku using ssb kaiokenx10 against hit in anime and ssg in manga. What should stay consistent is this:

base->ss->ss2->ss3->ssg(in anime lack of it)->ssb->ssbx10kaioken(only anime).

Mr. Buu is above first form frieeza, and when you accept it, then rest become more clear and much more sensible especially with u6 participants

Actually, I think that the only difference is Goku & vegeta's power level in manga and anime. In anime, they are more powerful in non-godly forms than manga. However, SSB (manga) is 10 times more pwoerful than anime.

I think it goes like this:
M = manga, A = anime

namek freeza << Base goku (M) < Piccolo < fat buu < SS3 gotenks < Base goku (A) < Frost < SS Cabba < SS Goku (M) << SS FT < SS2 goku (M) < SS Goku (A) = SS3 goku (M) = SS2 FT << Zamasu < SS2 goku (A) < Black (current timeline) <<< SS3 goku (A) << SSG Goku

Where did the 10X number come from?

I do agree that in terms who is more powerful than who, the scaling is the same, although I think manga Trunks was made stronger than anime Trunks in terms of him overpowering Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Goku with that whole mutated Super Saiyan 2. The anime went with Goku and Vegeta absorbing godhood, while the manga treats Super Saiyan God as a separate form and power-up.

Another theory to explain the SSG power retcon by combining the movie & manga continuities: After Goku & Vegeta* learned how to turn into a Super Saiyan God at will, the power in their base forms re-merged with the SSG form, so after that their base forms returned back to their regular level.

*Vegeta is implied to have gone through SSG like Goku did in Toriyama's continuity. In BoG, Vegeta tells Goku to help him next time turn into a SSG. In a FnF interview, Toriyama stated that Goku went to train with Whis first, and then Vegeta followed him, so he didn't get extra training like in the anime.

The problem with that is what we never see Vegeta used Super Saiyan God in any media, not even the manga where it's heavily implied that he doesn't have the form. And if we're going to used Toriyama's interviews, he also said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed its power.

[apex_pretador]

[spoiler]

Yeah that exactly what I meant. Basically if you accept retconn which has valid base and hints or proofs spread around anime that neither base goku or vegeta are longer god tier, also accepting that absorbing ssg power never meant to be fully accesible in base or even ss. Just them getting much stronger or improved over his buu arc.

In other words the only difference between anime and manga are goku using ssb kaiokenx10 against hit in anime and ssg in manga. What should stay consistent is this:

base->ss->ss2->ss3->ssg(in anime lack of it)->ssb->ssbx10kaioken(only anime).

Mr. Buu is above first form frieeza, and when you accept it, then rest become more clear and much more sensible especially with u6 participants

Actually, I think that the only difference is Goku & vegeta's power level in manga and anime. In anime, they are more powerful in non-godly forms than manga. However, SSB (manga) is 10 times more pwoerful than anime.

I think it goes like this:
M = manga, A = anime

namek freeza << Base goku (M) < Piccolo < fat buu < SS3 gotenks < Base goku (A) < Frost < SS Cabba < SS Goku (M) << SS FT < SS2 goku (M) < SS Goku (A) = SS3 goku (M) = SS2 FT << Zamasu < SS2 goku (A) < Black (current timeline) <<< SS3 goku (A) << SSG Goku

[/spoiler]

Where did the 10X number come from?

I do agree that in terms who is more powerful than who, the scaling is the same, although I think manga Trunks was made stronger than anime Trunks in terms of him overpowering Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Goku with that whole mutated Super Saiyan 2. The anime went with Goku and Vegeta absorbing godhood, while the manga treats Super Saiyan God as a separate form and power-up.

That is if we assume that hit (manga) = Hit (anime).

Hit was stronger than SSB anime but weaker than SSB manga or kaioken x10 SSB anime.
So, kk x10 SSB (anime) = SSB (manga). Makes sense?

On trunks, we can explain it doe to the fact that in manga, piccolo is probably slightly stronger than base saiyans (goku / vegeta) while in anime, base goku is stronger than SS3 gotenks. So, SS2 goku in anime was already much stronger than SS3 goku manga.

also, vegeta never absorbed god powers, and goku absorbed only for one fight.

[HeroR]

[spoiler]

Actually, I think that the only difference is Goku & vegeta's power level in manga and anime. In anime, they are more powerful in non-godly forms than manga. However, SSB (manga) is 10 times more pwoerful than anime.

I think it goes like this:
M = manga, A = anime

namek freeza << Base goku (M) < Piccolo < fat buu < SS3 gotenks < Base goku (A) < Frost < SS Cabba < SS Goku (M) << SS FT < SS2 goku (M) < SS Goku (A) = SS3 goku (M) = SS2 FT << Zamasu < SS2 goku (A) < Black (current timeline) <<< SS3 goku (A) << SSG Goku

[/spoiler]

Where did the 10X number come from?

I do agree that in terms who is more powerful than who, the scaling is the same, although I think manga Trunks was made stronger than anime Trunks in terms of him overpowering Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Goku with that whole mutated Super Saiyan 2. The anime went with Goku and Vegeta absorbing godhood, while the manga treats Super Saiyan God as a separate form and power-up.

That is if we assume that hit (manga) = Hit (anime).

Hit was stronger than SSB anime but weaker than SSB manga or kaioken x10 SSB anime.
So, kk x10 SSB (anime) = SSB (manga). Makes sense?

On trunks, we can explain it doe to the fact that in manga, piccolo is probably slightly stronger than base saiyans (goku / vegeta) while in anime, base goku is stronger than SS3 gotenks. So, SS2 goku in anime was already much stronger than SS3 goku manga.

also, vegeta never absorbed god powers, and goku absorbed only for one fight.

The scale in both the anime and manga is that Hit is <= to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta. What put him ahead during his fight with Vegeta was his time skip, since Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku overwhelmed Hit until he improved. It's just the anime made Hit get progressively stronger.

The problem with Piccolo being stronger than Goku and Vegeta's base forms in the manga is that it's questionable if Goku really needed to transform to beat Frost's final form since Frost' attacks in his third form didn't cause great harm to him, while it was stated in both anime and manga that Piccolo stood no chance against Frost even after Goku weakened him.

Goku also absorbed godhood, that is stated in both the anime and movie. He didn't lose the power up as soon as the battle was over. In the movie, we don't know how Vegeta achieved godhood. He could have worked for it like in Super or he could have absorbed godhood like Goku off-screen. The movie left it very vague.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The problem with that is what we never see Vegeta used Super Saiyan God in any media, not even the manga where it's heavily implied that he doesn't have the form.

Where was it implied in the manga that Vegeta didn't have the form?

And if we're going to used Toriyama's interviews, he also said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed its power.

As the author, he is free to change his mind. But until we get a contradiction to what he previously said, I see no reason to disregard him.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys I am sure there will be uproar of rage or some everyone's reaction like "no this again", however I am really curious where base goku and vegeta currently are. Trying to gauge their level and compare them to z characters I will use Picoolo as example.

It was stated by Akira that Picoolo keep training and never stops or so I heard. Even although I would say Picoolo get weaker slightly but let's go by what was said.
We know that kid ssj2 gohan is close to majin vegeta ss2 and ss2 goku buu arc, that means Ss goku/vegeta are only a bit stronger then cell games ss gohan. In buu arc Picoolo was excited to fight goku and vegeta so he most likely included ss, also we know that in cell games Picoolo was above semi perfect cell but let's assume semi perfect cell. Now in dragon ball super let's keep Picoolo as being only cell games ss goku as he wanted to fight goku and vegeta even ass ss.

ss3 goku/vegeta -
ss2 goku/vegeta - 135 000 x base gohan
ss3 vegetoo - 113 920 x base gohan
ss goku/vegeta - 67 500 x base gohan
ss2 vegetoo - 28 480 x base gohan
ss vegetto - 14 240 x base gohan
final form frost - 1500 x base gohan
buuhan - 1424 x base gohan
final form freeza - 1356 x base gohan
rof dbs base goku/vegeta - 1350 x base gohan
Assault form frost - 1340x base gohan
buutenks - 712 x base gohan
ultimate gohan - 356 x base gohan
base vegetto - 284 x base gohan
ss3 gotenks - 178 x base gohan
dbs ss gohan - 50x base gohan
ss2 gotenks - 45 x base gohan
ss gotenks - 22.5 x base gohan
ssj3 goku - 18 x base gohan
fat buu - 13.5 x base gohan
Mr. buu - 9 x base gohan
dbs first form frieeza - 6 x base gohan
kid ss2 gohan - 4.5 x base gohan
super perfect cell - 4 x base gohan
perfect cell - 3 x base gohan
rof dbs Picoolo - 2 x base gohan
dbs base gohan = 50% of cell games ss goku
Picoolo with weights and cape = ascended ss vegeta

That would put ss gohan between ss3 gotenks and ss2 gotenks. Let's say At leat first form frieeza is above fat buu, as he can not be less then that. so let's go by him being equal to ss gotenks as he was about to fight him, although he wasn't too woried about him, so 20x base gohan. now we know that From First form to final form frieeza has to multiply his power by x226.

This way we got that both final form frieeza and base goku were above buuhan by rof, same with vegeta. Now we know that Assault form Frost is close to base goku/vegeta but I think weaker as goku wasn't going all out and was just finishing warm up or was just warming up. Also keep in mind base goki/vegeta were infferior to final form freeza in dbs, so I would say they were 0.8 of final form freeza.

so what do you think guys ?, To me freeza was afraid of ss gohan and attacked him straight away before gohan could shield himself or react... Still if freeza 226 multiplier is correct then he just make it at least buuhan level in final form... if it was x100 multiplier then maybe it would fit...

[Bullza]

Well I couldn't break down all your numbers or anything but...

If you have Ultimate Gohan being 356x stronger than Gohan then shouldn't Buutenks and Buuhan be less than 700x stronger than Gohan? Buuhan is essentially Ultimate Gohan + Super Buu and Gohan makes up the majority of that power so Buuhan shouldn't even be twice as strong Ultimate Gohan.

Likewise I'm sure Base Goku and Vegeta are well over twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan so they should be above Buuhan which would fit if Buuhan were sub 700x Gohan.

I'd put Final Form Frost quite a bit higher. Frieza got 30-60x stronger going from his third to his final form so I use something similar for Frost. I also wouldn't put Assault Form Frost that close to Base Goku because he clearly wasn't fighting as seriously as he could have.

I'd also put SSJ Goku and Vegeta above SSJ3 Vegito because it's supposed to be as strong as SSJG at least and that's more powerful than fusion.

[ssbgoku]

Well I couldn't break down all your numbers or anything but...

If you have Ultimate Gohan being 356x stronger than Gohan then shouldn't Buutenks and Buuhan be less than 700x stronger than Gohan? Buuhan is essentially Ultimate Gohan + Super Buu and Gohan makes up the majority of that power so Buuhan shouldn't even be twice as strong Ultimate Gohan.

Likewise I'm sure Base Goku and Vegeta are well over twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan so they should be above Buuhan which would fit if Buuhan were sub 700x Gohan.

I'd put Final Form Frost quite a bit higher. Frieza got 30-60x stronger going from his third to his final form so I use something similar for Frost. I also wouldn't put Assault Form Frost that close to Base Goku because he clearly wasn't fighting as seriously as he could have.

I'd also put SSJ Goku and Vegeta above SSJ3 Vegito because it's supposed to be as strong as SSJG at least and that's more powerful than fusion.

Thank you so much your reply .

Well for some reason I am sure to ultimate gohan x2 for butenks and ultimate gohan x4 for buuhan... At leat x1.5 for buutenks and ultimate gohan x2.5-3 for buuhan.
I also admit, that I tried to lowball first form freeza as much possible due to ridiculous 226 multiplier..., if it was some sort of x100 then it would be easier to fit and not overdo it, but still.

I have rof Base goku and Vegeta just little below buuhan and current base goku/vegeta would be above buuhan, but still below ss vegetto. Hmm with ff frost maybe, hard to say, but he would be tough to fit. Yeah possibly Assault form Frost would be weaker then base goku but I tried to fit with anime... so put it close.

Hmm not sure about ss goku/vegeta being above ss3 vegetto as I don't have them equal to ssg, but for sure they are at least above ss2 vegetto but good margin..
Anyway I believe Tired/holding back ff form was at least below assault form frost as Picoolo asked him to power down in previous form at least but Frost stated there is no need as he lacks power to kill him. I know it would be good face facade which he kept at that time, but if he was at least below Assault form forst, then it make sense as Picoolo would be below base goku still also his SBC would be 5 times stronger theim Picoolo himself and it would work. However It would put Picoolo at close to ultimate gohan level, at least ss3 gotenks tier to do that.

[Bullza]

Sorta random side note but wouldn't Demigra be around as strong as Black?

In the Xenoverse game it took the Hero character and a Post God absorption SSJ3 Goku in between the events of BoG and RoF to beat him. Black is supposed to be slightly stronger than current Post God absorption SSJ3 Goku.

They're probably around the same level right?

Which actually does also remind me that people didn't seem to have a problem with a God level SSJ3 Goku in Xenoverse but they do with Super.

[HeroR]

Sorta random side note but wouldn't Demigra be around as strong as Black?

In the Xenoverse game it took the Hero character and a Post God absorption SSJ3 Goku in between the events of BoG and RoF to beat him. Black is supposed to be slightly stronger than current Post God absorption SSJ3 Goku.

They're probably around the same level right?

Which actually does also remind me that people didn't seem to have a problem with a God level SSJ3 Goku in Xenoverse but they do with Super.

Most thought it was an error because fans believed all the gold Super Saiyan forms were gone from Goku. That only changed after Goku went Super Saiyan against Frost.

And Black would be above Demigra. Goku trained for over four years before the Champa Saga and is stronger than he was even without Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, in-game Super Saiyan 3 Goku beat the crap out of Demigra. The Time Patroler could sit back and do nothing, and Goku will pound them. Also, the Time Patroler is as strong as the plot demand.…but still weaker than Beerus.

[Bullza]

Well Toriyama did say in a Battle of Gods interview that Goku could still get stronger by increasing his normal and Super Saiyan power. I don't know if people just assumed that he couldn't use those forms anymore because Super Saiyan Blue replaced them or what.

Xenoverse and Super sync up nicely in that way. Of course he couldn't use SSJB because he hadn't learned it yet and he didn't use SSJG because he'd absorbed it. He also didn't use a Base form because there wasn't one that was stronger than the SSJ3 that he did use.

I can't remember the details of the Demigra fight but I suppose he could be somewhere between Zamasu and Black perhaps.

[ssbgoku]

Well Toriyama did say in a Battle of Gods interview that Goku could still get stronger by increasing his normal and Super Saiyan power. I don't know if people just assumed that he couldn't use those forms anymore because Super Saiyan Blue replaced them or what.

Xenoverse and Super sync up nicely in that way. Of course he couldn't use SSJB because he hadn't learned it yet and he didn't use SSJG because he'd absorbed it. He also didn't use a Base form because there wasn't one that was stronger than the SSJ3 that he did use.

I can't remember the details of the Demigra fight but I suppose he could be somewhere between Zamasu and Black perhaps.

My only complaint about goku suprassing super Saiyan god through any of ss form is because I treat ssg as transformation.

Dragon ball universe has made it clear that over time there was none previous arc supperior transformation which could be suprassed by newer arc infferior transformation. Of course it may be only dbz stuff although even goku and vegeta followed this pattern before goku turned ssg:

Buu arc ss < bog arc ss < cell arc ss2 < buu arc ss2 < bog arc ss2 < buu arc ss3 < bog arc ss3

Actually it changes into less of issue as you neglect ssg as transformation. That all I think however mangs still follows dbz pattern it seems

[Bullza]

Well Super Saiyan God is just a transformation for the manga. He doesn't transform into in the anime because as Beerus said the power had merged and became a part of Goku.

You could assume that it was just a one time deal but they never said that it was and they have never had Super Saiyan God show up in the anime since even though it's still a relatively new form and they've had all the others show up.

[ssbgoku]

Well Super Saiyan God is just a transformation for the manga. He doesn't transform into in the anime because as Beerus said the power had merged and became a part of Goku.

You could assume that it was just a one time deal but they never said that it was and they have never had Super Saiyan God show up in the anime since even though it's still a relatively new form and they've had all the others show up.

Yeah I know, also it was very pattern in dragon ball z, so it may not be the same with dbs as it was in dbz. So here it is how I see it"

if dbs pattern of transformations=dbz pattern of transformations and super Saiyan god is transformation = then base< ss < ss2 < ss3 < ssg < ssb (no matter what arc)
else, it is up to our interpretation...

Also what make me wonder and sometimes angry is people using double standards. I mean people are easily accepting for possiblity of beerus being retconned to be much stronger then ssg even although eariler beerus was happy and excited at least to fight against ssg, so surely it wasn't any less then 10% of his power... However for some reason people can not accept possiblity of ssg power being absorbed being retconned in anime too, why ?, just please explain to me someone.

Is it only due to power level going up and can not be down ?, or maybe is it due to Akira stating that he doesn't plan for goku or vegeta to suprass beerus... I am really curious. If it is only due to interview then why people are ready to accept 6-10-15 scale was retconned or Akira stating ss2 and ss3 forms are absolete and will not get used, and then being used again does not contradict what Akira stated, doesn't it prove that Akira's word in interview should be taken with grain of salt ?

In my humble opinion even in dragon ball z there were retconns and in dbs they were too and will keep pooping up as Author cares only about sales and merchandise, however he will try to stay consistent after his editors point him out something wrong.

Example:

Editors: "Dragon ball super has great sales so far, but what we could do to increase it..."
Akira: "Damn... I am missing ss form and even ss2 and ss3 (light bulb in head), well that it, let's bring all these forms back !"
Editors: "Yeah, that cool, but wait what about ssg form, it doesn't sell that good since you decided to not bring it back..."
Akira: "Really then brings it back too, as long as it is entertaining and nice to watch it will be ok".
Editors: "Wait, but Mr. Akira in anime ssg is as strong as ss form... so"
Akira: "Just retconn it and make ss form just powered up from base form, let's say 1000 multiplier for ssg from base and scale all forms from it, ok ?"
Editors: "that ok but what if someone points out these flaws"
Akira: "You can not doubt word of God, they will swallow it and get used to it with pass of time. Mwahaha I am evil genius, am I not ?"
Editors: *sweatdrops*