Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I can see goku easily decreasing kaioken to x2 after using powerfull kamehameha which Hit has never planned to even block or something

Well I saw something about that which got me thinking. This was mentioned on the DB wiki and also VSbattles but essentially this is Goku using the Kaioken at first.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And this is Goku when specifically using Kaioken x10.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He used the latter briefly at the start and when he fired the Kamehameha but he never looked like that in the following episode.

So is that an animation thing or was Goku no longer using Kaioken x10 after the Kamehameha but the regular Kaioken and that's why the fight was a little closer as it should be.

We saw Hit fighting on par with KKx10 SSB Goku & taking multiple hits before the Kamehameha, so that explanation doesn't work. Besides, everyone was commenting Goku's power increases in detail, so if Goku's power had fallen back to KKx2, I think it would have been mentioned.

[DBZ Macky]

Guys please critique:

---Battle of Gods Saga---
Whis= 1,500,000,000,000
Beerus= 1,000,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. SSJ3 Goku, 5%)= 50,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. Mutated Vegeta, 10%)= 100,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. Initial SSJG Goku, 50%)= 500,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. SSJG Goku, 70%)= 700,000,000,000
Goku= 90,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 4,500,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 9,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 36,000,000,000
Goku (+4 SSJ Power)= 300,000,000,000
Goku (SSJG Initial)= 450,000,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan God)= 600,000,000,000
Goku= 120,000,000
Vegeta= 90,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 4,500,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ2)= 9,000,000,000
Vegeta (Mutation)= 90,000,000,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 30,000,000,000
Gohan (Super Saiyan)= 3,000,000,000
Goten= 18,000,000
Trunks= 22,000,000
Gotenks= 200,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 10,000,000,000
Videl= 15
Piccolo= 1,900,000,000
Android 18= 340,000,000
Krillin= 140,000
Tien= 125,000

---Revival of 'F'---
Sorbet= 2,000
Tagoma= 20,000
Tagoma (4 months later)= 2,500,000,000
Shisami= 20,000
Shisami (4 months later)= 1,000,000,000
Frieza's army= 500-1,000
Jaco= 3,000
Master Roshi= 5,000
Tien= 127,000
Krillin= 135,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 2,400,000,000
Gohan (SSJ)= 3,000,000,000
Piccolo= 2,000,000,000
Gotenks= 200,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 10,000,000,000
Goku= 70,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 700,000,000,000
Vegeta= 70,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 700,000,000,000
Frieza (1st form)= 5,300,000,000
Frieza (True form)= 60,000,000,000
Frieza (Golden form)= 780,000,000,000
Frieza (Golden form, tired)= 480,000,000,000

---Champa---
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 3,200,000,000
Gohan (SSJ)= 3,000,000,000
Piccolo= 2,800,000,000
Goku (Match-Power)= 160,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Goku= 80,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 800,000,000,000
Vegeta (Match-Power)= 160,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Vegeta= 80,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 800,000,000,000
Krillin= 134,000,000

---Copy---
Vegeta (Full-Power)= 85,000,000,000
Gotenks= 200,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 10,000,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan 3)= 80,000,000,000

---Black---
Goku (Match-Power)= 180,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 9,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 18,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 72,000,000,000
Goku (Full-Power)= 90,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 900,000,000,000
Vegeta (Match-Power)= 180,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 9,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB Holding Back)= 90,000,000,000
Vegeta (Full-Power)= 90,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 900,000,000,000
Future Trunks= 160,000,000
Future Trunks (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Future Trunks (USSJ)= 14,400,000,000
Future Trunks (SSJ2)= 16,000,000,000
Black (Holding Back)= 18,000,000,000
Black (Initial Full Power)= 90,000,000,000
Black (Power-Up)= 900,000,000,000
Black (Super Saiyan Rose)= 9,000,000,000,000
Goten= 18,000,000
Trunks= 22,000,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Piccolo (Weights)= 2,400,000,000
Piccolo= 3,000,000,000
Krillin= 133,000,000

[Lord Frieza]

People seem to have overlooked a rather important fact about Vegeta and Black's fight. Not only did Vegeta do no damage and was hurt by Black's attack, Vegeta in the middle of an all out attack backed off. He would only have done that if he knew his attacks weren't having much effect and that Black was more dangerous then he though.

Black's level of progression is insain, it seems that like Hit his power improves at a far greater pace then even the over powered saiyans. Also his words seem to indicate that he is actually a god of some sort.

Also I wonder if Vegeta catching SSR Black's punch has less to do with power and more to do with Whis's training, you know the whole "Acting without thinking" stuff?

[Noah]

[quote="DBZ Macky"]Krillin= 134,000,000/quote]

So Krillin is stronger than 100% FP Freeza (Namek)? I wonder when did he improved so much.

[ZombieVito]

Guys please critique:

[spoiler]---Battle of Gods Saga---
Whis= 1,500,000,000,000
Beerus= 1,000,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. SSJ3 Goku, 5%)= 50,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. Mutated Vegeta, 10%)= 100,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. Initial SSJG Goku, 50%)= 500,000,000,000
Beerus (Vs. SSJG Goku, 70%)= 700,000,000,000
Goku= 90,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 4,500,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 9,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 36,000,000,000
Goku (+4 SSJ Power)= 300,000,000,000
Goku (SSJG Initial)= 450,000,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan God)= 600,000,000,000
Goku= 120,000,000
Vegeta= 90,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 4,500,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ2)= 9,000,000,000
Vegeta (Mutation)= 90,000,000,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 30,000,000,000
Gohan (Super Saiyan)= 3,000,000,000
Goten= 18,000,000
Trunks= 22,000,000
Gotenks= 200,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 10,000,000,000
Videl= 15
Piccolo= 1,900,000,000
Android 18= 340,000,000
Krillin= 140,000
Tien= 125,000

---Revival of 'F'---
Sorbet= 2,000
Tagoma= 20,000
Tagoma (4 months later)= 2,500,000,000
Shisami= 20,000
Shisami (4 months later)= 1,000,000,000
Frieza's army= 500-1,000
Jaco= 3,000
Master Roshi= 5,000
Tien= 127,000
Krillin= 135,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 2,400,000,000
Gohan (SSJ)= 3,000,000,000
Piccolo= 2,000,000,000
Gotenks= 200,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 10,000,000,000
Goku= 70,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 700,000,000,000
Vegeta= 70,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 700,000,000,000
Frieza (1st form)= 5,300,000,000
Frieza (True form)= 60,000,000,000
Frieza (Golden form)= 780,000,000,000
Frieza (Golden form, tired)= 480,000,000,000

---Champa---
Gohan= 60,000,000
Gohan (Ultimate)= 3,200,000,000
Gohan (SSJ)= 3,000,000,000
Piccolo= 2,800,000,000
Goku (Match-Power)= 160,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Goku= 80,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 800,000,000,000
Vegeta (Match-Power)= 160,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Vegeta= 80,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 800,000,000,000
Krillin= 134,000,000

---Copy---
Vegeta (Full-Power)= 85,000,000,000
Gotenks= 200,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan)= 10,000,000,000
Gotenks (Super Saiyan 3)= 80,000,000,000

---Black---
Goku (Match-Power)= 180,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 9,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 18,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 72,000,000,000
Goku (Full-Power)= 90,000,000,000
Goku (SSJB)= 900,000,000,000
Vegeta (Match-Power)= 180,000,000
Vegeta (SSJ)= 9,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB Holding Back)= 90,000,000,000
Vegeta (Full-Power)= 90,000,000,000
Vegeta (SSJB)= 900,000,000,000
Future Trunks= 160,000,000
Future Trunks (SSJ)= 8,000,000,000
Future Trunks (USSJ)= 14,400,000,000
Future Trunks (SSJ2)= 16,000,000,000
Black (Holding Back)= 18,000,000,000
Black (Initial Full Power)= 90,000,000,000
Black (Power-Up)= 900,000,000,000
Black (Super Saiyan Rose)= 9,000,000,000,000
Goten= 18,000,000
Trunks= 22,000,000
Gohan= 60,000,000
Piccolo (Weights)= 2,400,000,000
Piccolo= 3,000,000,000
Krillin= 133,000,000[/spoiler]

- Beerus and Whis need to be at least 10 times stronger.
- Nice to see that someone is using the same thing as me with Gohan.
- Trunks and Goten seem a bit too weak for my liking.
- I'd lower Tenshinhan a bit. Until stated otherwise Kuririn will always be stronger than him.
- Ginyu called Gohan's power puny. He's ultimate state is too close to him.
- Piccolo is also too close to Ginyu. He got destroyed by a weaker opponent (Tagoma).
- Roshi seems too strong for my liking. He was never confirmed to train.
- Vegeta's base is too close to SSJ3 Gotenks. He tanked hit's from him.
- Didn't Trunks bulk up with SSJ2?
- Why would Kuririn get weaker? Gohan didn't in 7 years.
- I'd wait to see the next episode before giving SSR Black a BP.

[Bullza]

I'll add a couple comments to.

- Those numbers are based on the 6/10/15 scale which I really don't think applies anymore. Super Saiyan is as strong as Super Saiyan God so that'd also be a six but then Super Saiyan 2 would be like a 12.

It's just as outdated as them not using SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore.

- SSJG Goku is surely far more than just 16x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Super Vegito is probably far above that and SSJG Goku is supposedly stronger a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito.

- I'd put Goten and Trunks closer together than that, higher also.

- There's no Base form of Goku or Vegeta that is stronger than heir Super Saiyan form, not at the same time anyway. Super Saiyan Goku would be 50x stronger than the Base Goku who fought Frieza in the RoF saga.

- I'd maybe put SSJ2 Trunks above SSJ2 Goku now. I'm not sure on it or anything but considering he was holding back against Goku and he was above SSJ2 Goku in the manga I'd just assume he were.

[ZombieVito]

Trunks was holding back as a SSJ2? He couldn't do shit to Goku.

Goku was even smiling when he grabbed his fists.

[Bullza]

It was a little bit after that. First SSJ2 Trunks pushed SSJ2 Goku back, then he mentioned how Black got stronger as they fought, so then Goku turns into a SSJ3 to which then Trunks takes out his sword and says he'll go at him at full power. So he was holding back against SSJ2 Goku.

So it's similiar to the manga in ways because Trunks was stronger "than Gohan that time" when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku but when Goku turns into a SSJ3, Trunks powers up to his maximum.

[TheMikado]

It was a little bit after that. First SSJ2 Trunks pushed SSJ2 Goku back, then he mentioned how Black got stronger as they fought, so then Goku turns into a SSJ3 to which then Trunks takes out his sword and says he'll go at him at full power. So he was holding back against SSJ2 Goku.

So it's similiar to the manga in ways because Trunks was stronger "than Gohan that time" when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku but when Goku turns into a SSJ3, Trunks powers up to his maximum.

That is a good point and does reenforce the narrative that Trunks as SSJ2 exceeds Goku/Vegeta as SSJ2

[ZombieVito]

It was a little bit after that. First SSJ2 Trunks pushed SSJ2 Goku back, then he mentioned how Black got stronger as they fought, so then Goku turns into a SSJ3 to which then Trunks takes out his sword and says he'll go at him at full power. So he was holding back against SSJ2 Goku.

So it's similiar to the manga in ways because Trunks was stronger "than Gohan that time" when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku but when Goku turns into a SSJ3, Trunks powers up to his maximum.

Right, I forgot about that.

God I fucking hate how they made Trunks this OP. It's even worse than Freeza's gains. At least with him there's a good reason behind it.

[TheMikado]

It was a little bit after that. First SSJ2 Trunks pushed SSJ2 Goku back, then he mentioned how Black got stronger as they fought, so then Goku turns into a SSJ3 to which then Trunks takes out his sword and says he'll go at him at full power. So he was holding back against SSJ2 Goku.

So it's similiar to the manga in ways because Trunks was stronger "than Gohan that time" when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku but when Goku turns into a SSJ3, Trunks powers up to his maximum.

Right, I forgot about that.

God I fucking hate how they made Trunks this OP. It's even worse than Freeza's gains. At least with him there's a good reason behind it.

I prefer trunks to Frieza's. At least Trunks years versus Frieza's BS 4 months and I'm God tier powerup.

[buutenks]

So, PL are a mess, nothing new i guess ^^.

Still think 6/10/15 makes the most sense, and ssj1-3 r simply below the 6.

[Doctor.]

Kinda surreal to think that Whis isn't even top 5 anymore.

[TheMikado]

So, PL are a mess, nothing new i guess ^^.

Still think 6/10/15 makes the most sense, and ssj1-3 r simply below the 6.

I didn't know anyone was still following this power scaling

[fadeddreams5]

Kinda surreal to think that Whis isn't even top 5 anymore.

Who's higher than him? Zeno, Great Priest, Vados (?). Who else? Zeno's guardians?

[Doctor.]

Kinda surreal to think that Whis isn't even top 5 anymore.

Who's higher than him? Zeno, Great Priest, Vados (?). Who else? Zeno's guardians?

Yeah, I assume Zeno's attendants are stronger. Vados was also stated to be slightly stronger than him at least in the manga. And according to Whis he can't measure up to the Grand Priest who's in the top 5, so presumably Whis isn't in that top 5. Maybe once every top fighter in every universe gets revealed, he won't even crack top 10.

[kinisking]

Kinda surreal to think that Whis isn't even top 5 anymore.

Who's higher than him? Zeno, Great Priest, Vados (?). Who else? Zeno's guardians?

Yeah, I assume Zeno's attendants are stronger. Vados was also stated to be slightly stronger than him at least in the manga. And according to Whis he can't measure up to the Grand Priest who's in the top 5, so presumably Whis isn't in that top 5. Maybe once every top fighter in every universe gets revealed, he won't even crack top 10.

I like it that way. The more Goku and Vegeta have to grow, the better. Just wish these people weren't introduced quite yet though.

[HeroR]

It was a little bit after that. First SSJ2 Trunks pushed SSJ2 Goku back, then he mentioned how Black got stronger as they fought, so then Goku turns into a SSJ3 to which then Trunks takes out his sword and says he'll go at him at full power. So he was holding back against SSJ2 Goku.

So it's similiar to the manga in ways because Trunks was stronger "than Gohan that time" when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku but when Goku turns into a SSJ3, Trunks powers up to his maximum.

Right, I forgot about that.

God I fucking hate how they made Trunks this OP. It's even worse than Freeza's gains. At least with him there's a good reason behind it.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku did crap against Trunks except block. Nothing showed that he could actually harmed Goku. And how is Trunks OP. He regularly gets his ass kicked, even in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

He went from being weaker than Namek Freeza in base to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by himself with no RoSaT or god ki in less than 10 years.

With that time Goku couldn't even surpass Namek Freeza by himself in base and he trained in otherworld and in Kaio's planet. Vegeta also had gravity training far superior to that and amounted to the same results.

I know hybrids have more potential but come on. You can only stretch that so far.

[HeroR]

He went from being weaker than Namek Freeza in base to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by himself with no RoSaT or god ki in less than 10 years.

With that time Goku couldn't even surpass Namek Freeza by himself in base and he trained in otherworld and in Kaio's planet. Vegeta also had gravity training far superior to that and amounted to the same results.

I know hybrids have more potential but come on. You can only stretch that so far.

Are we taking about Trunks? He was stronger than Semi-Pefect Cell when he left for the future and he went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber twice. We also know that he later became stronger than Dabura, which he called a tough fight. There is also no evident that he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks since he never fought base from Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Goku didn't really fight him.

It is very disingenuous that you would used Trunks' first appearance and called all the gains he got in the Android/Cell Saga BS, especially since he was on par with all the other Saiyans at he time.