DBZ just isn't the same...

[Onikage725]

I was typing from work, so I didn't get to read my post before sending. So I just want to make clear to what I wrote above that my comment/question is pointed at the Faulconer score as... well, a score. The quality of each individual track or validity of the OST's they put out aren't what I'm talking about. Rather, how these pieces fit with the show and were applied to the show.

[ShinRogafuken]

I was typing from work, so I didn't get to read my post before sending. So I just want to make clear to what I wrote above that my comment/question is pointed at the Faulconer score as... well, a score. The quality of each individual track or validity of the OST's they put out aren't what I'm talking about. Rather, how these pieces fit with the show and were applied to the show.

Well, FUNi could've just used the original BGM.

But wait...this brings up another question. Considering FUNimation wasn't on as good terms as Toei as they are now back then, do you think Toei MADE them change the music??

[Kunzait_83]

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[Raki]

Which kinda makes it hard for me to even get behind the dub score. It started off as an insult.

[Rocketman]

The reason being, without mincing words, that it was felt that the child target audience of the time was too stupid to accept a classical instrumental score with pauses and breaks for silence, and it was feared that this would cause them to quickly lose interest and change the channel.

I dunno, man. When the characters are doing nothing and the music's doing nothing, and the art is doing nothing.... he might have a point. Star Wars never had the Skywalkers motionlessly staring at each other for ten minutes in complete silence.

[Gozar]

Oh, and Gozar- keep in mind one thing. At one point, people where deprived of options. What you said makes perfect sense now. But if you were following the series in America from the get-go, it took forever to get dual-language releases. Even then, none of them were finished until the orange bricks.

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely understand this. I didn't come into the series until 2002 and I know that most flame wars I've seen are nothing compared to back in the day. You know, when you think about it, if FUNi went the route of multiple Dub tracks like with their Season Sets from the start (1999, not 1995) I doubt there would have ever been so much chaos. I mean you have your higher energy head banging track for TV audience. Then give both options on the DVD's. I really is a shame that it took over a decade to get the Dub with the original score.

To be completely honest here, I find that this Forum has matured a great deal over the past few years. I've been a lurker around here since 2005 and have seen many flame wars happen over nothing but opinion. Pure opinion of musical preference. Like even very smart and knowledgeable people were treated like idiots simply because they enjoyed Faulconer. I don't see this here anymore. The people on here seem to have grown up a great deal and there's a level of mutual respect. It's very refreshing to see, especially considering I've always DESPISED a good chunk of the DragonBall fan base. Everything was always a huge fight. Not debate. Fight (Like on YouTube). It's nice to see this is fading.


I would like to say, regarding Gen Fukunaga. Now keep in mind, my statements here are regardless of if what he did was a good or bad choice. And regardless of whether it was right or wrong to do.

Piccolo Daimao through the end of the series HAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FEEL TO IT. I know people make jokes about Faulconer's music and the concept behind using it such as "ZOMGz We're FUNiMaTiOn...HARDCORE!!! BLARGH!!!"...But the truth is. The Z-Era's fights ARE INTENSE. The feel and flow of the fights in the DragonBall franchise completely change once you get to Piccolo Daimao. The feel of the series as a whole changed. The comedy takes a huge back seat. The martial arts aspect takes a huge back seat as these characters surpass their mentors.

People make it seem like Gen Fukunaga and America is the only place in the world that view DBZ as a "Hardcore fighting show". But that's simply not true...

.There's a reason that that DBZ Dragon Box came first in both Japan and America.

.There's a reason we play through the same Z storyline every single year in Video games and not the DragonBall storyline.

.There's a reason why DragonBall Kai started with the Z-Era.

.There's a reason Kikuchi's score was kept in the Dub of DragonBall.

.Hell, there's a reason why we're getting Super Saiya-jin Friggin 3 Broli.

The reasons are. Z IS intense. Z IS hardcore. And Z IS more so hardcore and action-ey than it's predecessor.


Remember, the DragonBall Franchise is a story. Not a musical score. It's the story of Son Goku. Not the story of Shunsuke Kikuchi's musical score. It's a story. And as a story it's open to certain levels of interpretation. Imagine that DragonBall was never animated and just a Manga. We'd all have our different opinions on what type of music would fit. Fact is, a good chunk of people would choose some head-banging music. Others, not. But the bottom line is, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Everyone's entitled to their preference.

It's one thing to make ignorant statements based solely on bias. It's another to know your facts and make an informed decision based upon your personal tastes and personal interpretation of a Franchise that it's creator himself left a ton of personal interpretation room throughout the story.

[Raki]

.There's a reason we play through the same Z storyline every single year in Video games and not the DragonBall storyline.

It's because most younger fans have never seen Dragonball. Personally it would make for a more richer experience if the games had the whole story. I find the 21st Budokai just as intense as the latter arcs. Also, I don't consider Dragonball to be hardcore at all. Yes it has punches and fighting along with death. But those elements don't have it "hardcore" at all.

[Gozar]

Also, I don't consider Dragonball to be hardcore at all. Yes it has punches and fighting along with death. But those elements don't have it "hardcore" at all.

I respectfully disagree. I don't see how bloody fights to save an entire planet (or universe) while your friends are being murdered in front of your eyes isn't "hardcore".

[laserkid]

Yes, Dragon Ball Z is so much more hardcore. You know, with Gohan trying to be a "great scholar", Chi Chi's over mothering, and Kaio-Sama's bad jokes.

Sure its more action packed but hardcore is not the word I would use for it.

Unless of course, you mean something like this...

[LeprikanGT]

This whole topic is pretty much a 'too bad, there's nothing you can do to make Faulconer's music go away'. It's like trying to argue GT out of existance.

[verto]

I'm not trying to change anyone's views, I'm just curious, why all the hate towards FUNi's dub (more specifically, the music). Gozar's post got me thinking, if I had never seen DBZ and only read the manga, what kind of music would I think fits it best? I would hear something like FUNi did. Again, I'm gonna be using Gohan going SS2, in that scene, with no music, what would you imagine? This might be hard since you have seen it and its already associated with something in your mind, but please try. I hear music thats on the louder side, his friends were getting the crap kicked out of them. He's pissed. What music best goes with someone who's pissed off and is about to kill someone but also wants them to suffer? Not spirit versus spirit.

Would anyone seriously picture something like that? Pplease don't say yes just because you like that version better, think about it, please. I'm not trying to start anything so please don't take offense to it like someone did last page...

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

I'm not trying to change anyone's views, I'm just curious, why all the hate towards FUNi's dub (more specifically, the music). Gozar's post got me thinking, if I had never seen DBZ and only read the manga, what kind of music would I think fits it best? I would hear something like FUNi did. Again, I'm gonna be using Gohan going SS2, in that scene, with no music, what would you imagine? This might be hard since you have seen it and its already associated with something in your mind, but please try. I hear music thats on the louder side, his friends were getting the crap kicked out of them. He's pissed. What music best goes with someone who's pissed off and is about to kill someone but also wants them to suffer? Not spirit versus spirit.

Would anyone seriously picture something like that? Pplease don't say yes just because you like that version better, think about it, please. I'm not trying to start anything so please don't take offense to it like someone did last page...

I honestly would probably go somewhere in-between, without any precedent. It's hard to say, but a lot of the build-up for that scene is the sadness of 16 being coldly crushed and "killed", when all he wanted was peace and to make sure the creatures and nature he loved would be protected.

That is a powerful aspect of the scene, and it would have to be heavily represented in whatever composition was used for it to work. Whether it somehow go from a quiet flute piece that finds a way to seemlessly transition into a louder, more frantic explosion of angry sound, or have it be an intense but emotional song througout.

[Velasa]

I don't hear music when listening to manga myself. I just hear voices for the characters and possibly sound effects. The closest I get to hearing music is the repeated trains of whatever song's stuck in my head at the time.

Why am I personally not fond of the dub music in particular? Because it doesn't belong there. When I first watched the show the music was mostly uneventful and I never even noticed the change in the score between the Saban eps and the purely FUNi eps because it was all just general droning while I paid attention to the characters. I never cared much for the concept of replacing what should be there for the hell of it, I never really paid that much attention to it. I only really formed an opinion after reading the interview posted here- http://www.animecauldron.com/dbzuncenso ... rview.html
But to sum things, this is the important part-

Steve: Was the replacement of the soundtrack in the first two seasons a Saban decision?

Gen: The replacing of the music, was a FUNimation desicsion. With our own soundtrack, we could charge royalties for every second it's heard.

And that just makes me goddamn furious. They got rid of something that was suppose to be there, something the creators of the series had chosen, just to line their pockets? Read on in the interview and it just gets worse. It's not goddamn right.

[Onikage725]

I dunno, man. When the characters are doing nothing and the music's doing nothing, and the art is doing nothing.... he might have a point. Star Wars never had the Skywalkers motionlessly staring at each other for ten minutes in complete silence.

That sort of thing is primarily a trade mark of the animated Freeza Saga. Not that the issue isn't present elsewhere, but it tends to get overblown due to the overuse of it in said saga. And, I first saw most of the series dubbed. Those parts suck due to PACING, not BGM. They sucked just as hard, if not worse, with the Casio blaring in the background.

I'm not trying to change anyone's views, I'm just curious, why all the hate towards FUNi's dub (more specifically, the music). Gozar's post got me thinking, if I had never seen DBZ and only read the manga, what kind of music would I think fits it best? I would hear something like FUNi did. Again, I'm gonna be using Gohan going SS2, in that scene, with no music, what would you imagine? This might be hard since you have seen it and its already associated with something in your mind, but please try. I hear music thats on the louder side, his friends were getting the crap kicked out of them. He's pissed. What music best goes with someone who's pissed off and is about to kill someone but also wants them to suffer? Not spirit versus spirit.

Would anyone seriously picture something like that? Please don't say yes just because you like that version better, think about it, please. I'm not trying to start anything so please don't take offense to it like someone did last page...

I actually don't think that's a fair question. There are two versions of that scene. With the scene you are referring to, Toei was taking some artistic license by using an insert song to evoke a certain feeling. So, in this case, it's all about the music. The dub feels totally different. That isn't a criticism, as I don't think they had the rights to any of the insert songs for TV broadcast (even the Dragon Ball dub had to blanket out the songs, which was unfortunate during the Ten vs Yamcha fight). But it is a different direction for the scene.

The second version, the scene at the start of the next episode, plays out more like what you described in BOTH versions. They both use stock mood music for the beginning (and I actually think the Japanese bgm was more dynamic in this respect, the dub track is kind of low-key there). Then the Cell Jr's blindside the Z Senshi. In the Japanese audio, it cuts to silence as Gohan yells for them to stop (with an echo used for effect after Piccolo driven into the ground). There's silence aside from the ground cracking and Gohan's aura as Cell comments his approval, and then a very pulse-pounding track (that I personally love) kicks in for the last phase of the change. The dub doesn't do the silence bit at all, as per norm. It does benefit somewhat in that the theme for the scene is some of Bruce's better work. It basically cuts into that from the music they were playing during the Cell Jr. attack (from Gohan getting huffy).

EDIT: I just went and checked the dub of the "Spirit vs Spirit" version of Gohan's change, and they don't play Bruce's SSJ2 transformation theme there! I think we can put this often recurring aspect of the debate to rest. During the scene where the orignal had the insert song, the dub plays generic mood music (the same they start the next episode with that I mentioned above.) During the scene where they played an exciting theme for the change in the next ep, the Japanese version had a fast-paced selection for the moment as well.

I'll throw dub fans a bone- if you want, a far better examination of differing moods between silence/pulse-pounding music would be Vegeta's Final Flash attack on Cell.

[caejones]

Gohan's SSJ2 Transformation, eh? Let's see what I remember ...

I heard pretty much the day before that episode aired on Toonamy that it was coming, how it was triggered, Etc.
So yeah, there was buildup as I was watching and all.
It did fine--the Dende/16 theme was used well (maybe if it'd been a bit slower?), and then there's the pseudo-orchestral buildup right as the transforming happens, that ends on that ... I don't even know what, gong-ish version of the "Found you!" sound? (Ignoring Gohan's mental ranting in the dub...).

And then that blasted section from the "Hyperbolic Timechamber" track picks up. Way to blow the whole thing, FUNimation. -_-

I think something more like Spirit Vs. Spirit fits in more of a movie format than a TV series... but I still like how that turned out. XD

... What's this about a Faulconer SSJ2 theme that I somehow don't know about?

[Onikage725]

I've seen tracks surface here and there labeled as being that. I'm far from an oficianado, and I don't have the will power to sift through Amazon tracklistings on the... far too many... CD's for the dub. But a somewhat dynamic theme kicks in right as Gohan starts going SSJ2, in the second take on his change. It's just before a large chunk of ground splinters at his feet, and Cell says something like "that'll do" (and "let it all go" in the dub).

[Godo]

Also, I don't consider Dragonball to be hardcore at all. Yes it has punches and fighting along with death. But those elements don't have it "hardcore" at all.

I respectfully disagree. I don't see how bloody fights to save an entire planet (or universe) while your friends are being murdered in front of your eyes isn't "hardcore".

Goku vs. Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai, pre-DBZ was hardcore. A total slaughterfest with even odds.
The other fights are uneven after that point, one is always superior.There's no action or "wow" moments after that, except for the SSJ transformations. Those were the only things keeping DBA alive, more or less. And all those transformations. It's dissapointing.
I rather prefer the story in DBZ and the fights in DB.
Hell, even Krillin got a good shot at Piccolo Jr. as he actually punched him in the face.

But, back to the soundtrack issue, I agree with that it's just not the same with Funi's soundtrack, but it can sometimes be alright.
I agree with some of you, that silence is nonexistant in the dub, and the music is too repititive.
But I can say that alone, I can stand, say, Vegeta's theme. But in the dub, it becomes a clusterfuck of electronic jams which in the end hurts your ears.
At least, I have no problem with the instrumental soundtrack in the Japanese anime, although the music seems a bit outdated at times.
Today's youth prefer rock-like music, so called "hardcore" music, something that can be seen with the soundtrack of Death Note or Naruto (at least in the openings).
The Japanese openings are more like a nostalgic trip to me, and they remind me why I hooked up on Dragonball in the 1st place, when I found it in a store. It's just the music I thought of when I read Dragonball volume 17.

[Onikage725]

Aside from the OP's, the soundtracks to Death Note and Naruto are anything but "hardcore rock!" Naruto's does have rock elements, beecause it blends so many styles to produce a modern take on traditional music.

[Kroni_Hunter]

Funny, I kind of feel the opposite about having to watch DBZ in the original Japanese music. Some parts of it just sound like you're watching an old black and white movie, or an episode of Scooby Doo.
I remember one episode where Frieza was transforming into his Final Form, and the part where it goes "Previously, on DBZ" had that silly upbeat music when it was such a serious and NOT upbeat moment.

That being said, there are definitely some parts of the Jap. score I like. (Dan Kokoro, Makafushigi, although this was sent to the dub, and Chala) But how can anyone diss on some of Falconer's best stuff? I mean, SSJ3 Theme, common! And the ROSAT theme is great too, and then there was the Ginyu Transformation theme, which was my all time favorite. Call me a kid or say i have FUNI-semen on my lips, whatever. But in my opinion it fits the tone of DBZ.

[Freeza.exe]

Funny, I kind of feel the opposite about having to watch DBZ in the original Japanese music. Some parts of it just sound like you're watching an old black and white movie, or an episode of Scooby Doo.
I remember one episode where Freeza was transforming into his Final Form, and the part where it goes "Previously, on DBZ" had that silly upbeat music when it was such a serious and NOT upbeat moment.

That being said, there are definitely some parts of the Jap. score I like. (Dan Kokoro, Makafushigi, although this was sent to the dub, and Chala) But how can anyone diss on some of Falconer's best stuff? I mean, SSJ3 Theme, common! And the ROSAT theme is great too, and then there was the Ginyu Transformation theme, which was my all time favorite. Call me a kid or say i have FUNI-semen on my lips, whatever. But in my opinion it fits the tone of DBZ.

This bugs me more then anything else in this thread. I don't care at all when people say they like the dub score that's fine with me but when you start disrespecting the original material this is where I start to get offended.

This goes for anything else in my book. I like some English stuff better then the Japanese source but I always show proper respect to the source material.