Who is Stronger Questions

[Savage68]

Exactly, how am I trolling?

No matter what anyone says, your response is and always will be: "That's just your personal view/opinion of the scene, and is NOT fact". I honestly don't know why you even bothered to make the topic if you were just going to disagree with what everyone else had to say. You haven't put forth any arguments so far, and have only deflected what others have put forth because, in your mind, none of it's fact.

[Questrider]

I'm going to add this to my argument above:
Kid Buu, no doubt, can ALSO supress his power level as Goku and Vegeta were both caught off guard when Kid Buu made the energy ball in a second and flung it at the Earth. HAD they known he was that powerful, I doubt they would have made a little joke about his physical stature much less made a comment about his power level. (Depending on what Goku and Vegeta meant by their comments)

I mention this because both Goku and Vegeta had NO idea how powerful Kid Buu really was until he tried to blow up the Earth.

[Savage68]

I mention this because both Goku and Vegeta had NO idea how powerful Kid Buu really was until he tried to blow up the Earth.

And even after that, Goku was still fully confident in going one-on-one with him, and didn't mention underestimating Buu until SSJ3 started to crap out on him. And even then, he was still confident that he was capable of wiping Buu out (while factoring in regeneration) if he could somehow manage to get to full-power. With Super Buu, none of that came to mind. He knew for certain that without fusion, the universe was screwed. Vegeta even corroborates this.

[Questrider]

@Savage-
I'm not making arguments now? Are you serious???
You preach and preach about the importance of facts yet all of your points have been rooted in OPINION and have been subject to debate. Recognize the definition and distinction.

All I can say is read my post again. READ MY arguments (which are clearly there) and dispute those points which you have convieniently avoided.

Until then, I refuse to go back and forth with you when it's not on topic.

[Questrider]

I mention this because both Goku and Vegeta had NO idea how powerful Kid Buu really was until he tried to blow up the Earth.

And even after that, Goku was still fully confident in going one-on-one with him, and didn't mention underestimating Buu until SSJ3 started to crap out on him. And even then, he was still confident that he was capable of wiping Buu out (while factoring in regeneration) if he could somehow manage to get to full-power. With Super Buu, none of that came to mind. He knew for certain that without fusion, the universe was screwed. Vegeta even corroborates this.

See, THIS is not a bad point.
However, I go back to my earlier argument: (which wasn't really disputed either)
Is it possible Goku was simply afraid of getting absorbed?
After all, this is what Super Buu had been doing all along.
Kid Buu was all about going one on one and playing relatively fair. (I think Goku can handle those odds.)
Super Buu was nothing but a cheat.
He even defeated Gotenks SSJ3, who was stronger than he was. (Supposedly)

Remember when Super Buu claimed he was toying with Gotenks all along, simply waiting for Gohan?

People forget these comments which all factor into the argument.

[Savage68]

However, I go back to my earlier argument: (which wasn't really disputed either)
Is it possible Goku was simply afraid of getting absorbed?

I already answered this: No. He was worried that he and Vegeta would be killed if they fought Super Buu, which is what he said. He was talking about power, and nothing suggests he had the contingency of absorption in the back of his mind when he made the statement. There's not much reason to think he meant something that he didn't say.

Remember when Super Buu claimed he was toying with Gotenks all along, simply waiting for Gohan?

People forget these comments which all factor into the argument.

Lol, no one forgets these things. They're just irrelevant. Super Buu never said he was toying with Gotenks. He simply implied that he drew the fight out longer so that Gotenks' fusion time didn't run out. He easily could've done that without getting his ass beat if he was the stronger one.

[Senzu_Bean]

Exactly, how am I trolling?

You are not. That is exactly the reason why nobody can have a polite debate regarding Majin Buu's power. You basically have three sides:

1- Kid Buu fanboys that simple say "Kid Buu isa da strongast!". They are just trolling.

2- The old fans that have everything numbered, organized, etc. in their heads and no matter how wrong they're they don't take new facts as true. Like the SSJ multipliers.

3- Then you have those who mostly have the strongest arguments and the right idea but since they are less numerous are ignored by the bigger, dumb majority.

Yep, sad but is true among Dragonball community. I praise you by trying to make your view seen as valid but you will learn with time that is irrelevant.

[Questrider]

Exactly, how am I trolling?

You are not. That is exactly the reason why nobody can have a polite debate regarding Majin Buu's power. You basically have three sides:

1- Kid Buu fanboys that simple say "Kid Buu isa da strongast!". They are just trolling.

2- The old fans that have everything divided, numbered, organized, etc. in their heads and no matter how wrong they are they don't take new facts as true. Like for example the SSJ multipliers.

3- Then you have those who mostly have the strongest arguments and the right idea but since they are less numerous are ignored by the bigger, dumb majority.

Yep, sad but is true among Dragonball community.

This makes perfect sense to me. Especially in regards to the people who can't accept a fact that they might have missed.
It seems more often that not that people like to include all the facts that support their own claims while conveniently disregarding any counter argument that is actually worth debating.
It is difficult to debate against those who will believe what they will believe simply because it's the stance they have always had. These people often leave no room to debate their particular beliefs which almost renders them incapable of even having a debate to begin with...since in ANY good debate, you have to be willing to at least ponder what your opposition is challenging you with.

I have stated before that I am willing to concede if and when all arguments have been resolved and I have done nothing but keep an open mind thus far. If the opposition cannot do the same, then we are no longer really debating. Those people are simply waiting for another chance to say:
you are wrong...

...with no facts again whatsover. Just opinons.

[Dayspring]

(4) - If anything, this is the only minor plot hole in the entire thing. There may not be any good explanation for it, but it's there.

I think there is one. We see the "Boo Gas" take shape two times in the manga. One is when Skinny is formed, the other has it form on top of Skinny right after absorbing Mr Boo, and then most of it seems to merge/get absorbed by him and the result is Super Boo. I think Skinny Boo basically changed himself into Buff Boo here, so Buff Boo + Mr Boo = Super Boo. Take away Mr Boo, and Super becomes Buff, but he won't be able to maintain that form since the Southern Kaioshin is now inside Mr Boo. That's how Super without Mr got us a quick Buff and then Kid instead of Skinny Boo.

[hleV]

There's still evidence that Kid Buu shown his full power only when he confronted the Genki Dama. Kid Buu's beam had no effect on the Genki Dama, however he later pushed it back with his bare hands.

[Savage68]

There's still evidence that Kid Buu shown his full power only when he confronted the Genki Dama. Kid Buu's beam had no effect on the Genki Dama, however he later pushed it back with his bare hands.

The Genki Dama had no momentum at that point. Pushing up against something that has 0 momentum behind it doesn't say anything supportive about an invisible power increase, and the fact that Buu was struggling with it and his head was all vein-y makes this 'feat' of his even less impressive. And now that I think about it, he didn't even 'push' the GD forward. All he managed to do was hold it in place (while there was no power pushing against him anyway) while straining harder than ever before. That doesn't mean he's stronger than when he fought Goku. It means that no attack Goku threw at Buu was as powerful as the GD.

[caejones]

At Questrider:

Please define "fact" and "opinion" and explain how your arguments / those against you do or don't qualify as either?

(But hey, your last argumentative post actually cited things, so yay? XD)

[Questrider]

At Questrider:

Please define "fact" and "opinion" and explain how your arguments / those against you do or don't qualify as either?

(But hey, your last argumentative post actually cited things, so yay? XD)

Yep, I think I covered it. xD

Facts=Leave no room for doubt or debate.
Opinions are exactly the opposite. It's what WE think is true, (or what we perceive to be true) but NOT necessarily so.

[Kaboom]

Questrider... I don't know what else we can tell you.

You asked, and we gave the best answers we can. As far as I know, there is no such single, positive answer given anywhere in the manga OR in the the guidebooks that clearly stacks the Boos and says which are stronger and what-not. It's the kind of thing we're meant to analyze and figure out for ourselves. You're accusing us of not presenting facts when there ARE no facts. Only strong evidence one way or another.

We've presented as much of that evidence and raw sources as we can to you. Evidence which almost entirely points to Super Boo being greatly stronger than Kid Boo. What you do with that evidence, and whether or not you believe it or try to come up with contrived reasons to the contrary... is ultimately up to you.

[Questrider]

Questrider... I don't know what else we can tell you.

You asked, and we gave the best answers we can. As far as I know, there is no such single, positive answer given anywhere in the manga OR in the the guidebooks that clearly stacks the Boos and says which are stronger and what-not. It's the kind of thing we're meant to analyze and figure out for ourselves. You're accusing us of not presenting facts when there ARE no facts. Only strong evidence one way or another.

We've presented as much of that evidence and raw sources as we can to you. Evidence which almost entirely points to Super Boo being greatly stronger than Kid Boo. What you do with that evidence, and whether or not you believe it or try to come up with contrived reasons to the contrary... is ultimately up to you.

(Sighs)
This is good advice, Kaboom...and advice I should probably take. I meant no accusations, but that's easy to conclude I guess, as I DO and CAN get rather heated in a good debate. Such is the nature of that beast, I suppose.

It's too bad none of us know Toriyama personally as HE certainly knows the answer and I'm betting a few of his closest friends know as well.

Any chance for another interview???

There IS a definitive answer to the question but perhaps we aren't really meant to know...
After all, if we KNEW all the answers, then what would we talk about?

[Godo]

There are facts, contrary to popular belief, however.

Goku had the chance to meet all the three forms of Buu, and to sense their power, and to see their abilities.
Super Buu was the only one that he thought that only fusion could bring down, alas, he and Vegeta together weren't a match for him. But he went to fight Kid Buu one on one, without Vegeta, which indicates that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu.
Statements and actions taken in the manga are regarded as fact, and I don't see any space for doubt in this matter.
The actions that we see are:

1) Goku fought Fat Buu, having the upper hand.
2) Gohan fought Super Buu, having the upper hand. Goku, who had the power of SSJ3, didn't fight Super Buu. He was mad at Vegeta for breaking the Potara earring. So they released Fat Buu instead, as a last resort.
3) Goku fought Kid Buu, and was even with him.

I for one don't care much who is the strongest. I am only trying to say that it's kinda obvious in the manga who is stronger of the three Buu's.
Claiming that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu is to claim that the actual story didn't happen.

Sorry, but to think that Kid Buu is stronger proves that you are a Kid Buu fanboy, and is almost as absurd as Broly fanboys thinking that Broly can defeat Super Perfect Cell.

[jackjack]

Exactly, how am I trolling?

You are not. That is exactly the reason why nobody can have a polite debate regarding Majin Buu's power.

No, it's because of Kid Boo fanfappers pulling nonsensical theories like "SK has to be SSJ3 tier" outta their asses while ignoring stated facts like Goku outright saying he couldn't match Super Boo's strength, yet they try to twist his meaning by making excuses like "but he cold've bean just afraid of gettin absorped by Supa Bo0", which were lolzy to say the least.

[Bussani]

What you do with that evidence, and whether or not you believe it or try to come up with contrived reasons to the contrary... is ultimately up to you.

I remember saying something like this back on page 2. I also remember saying twice that there's no factual answer, only opinions based on the evidence. I'm really confused about what Questrider's trying to get out of this thread at this point. From where I'm standing it seems like he's just making up theories to show that people's opinions aren't facts...which is kind of pointing out the obvious.

I'm going to add this to my argument above:
Kid Buu, no doubt, can ALSO supress his power level as Goku and Vegeta were both caught off guard when Kid Buu made the energy ball in a second and flung it at the Earth. HAD they known he was that powerful, I doubt they would have made a little joke about his physical stature much less made a comment about his power level. (Depending on what Goku and Vegeta meant by their comments)

I mention this because both Goku and Vegeta had NO idea how powerful Kid Buu really was until he tried to blow up the Earth.

Blowing up the Earth isn't impressive at that point in the story. Even the weakest Buu should have been able to do it. It seemed to me that it was his craziness and insane destructive nature that caught them by surprise. But yes, Kid Buu's power while he was just standing there was probably lower than it would be when he "got serious". That's always been true, and Goku said the same thing when gauging Cell's power. What you're implying is that Goku and Vegeta suddenly became morons, forgot all this, and decided they could take Kid Buu based on nothing but his size. And even if that were somehow the case, Goku went toe to toe with Kid Buu until his SSJ3 ran out, while he said, clearly as day, "Super Buu is still stronger than either of us. We'll get killed if we fight him."

And yes, I've read your theory about that being a lie and Goku really being worried about Super Buu absorbing them. Even if Goku was worried about such a thing, there's no evidence that his line about Super Buu being stronger than either of them was a lie.

This makes perfect sense to me. Especially in regards to the people who can't accept a fact that they might have missed.
It seems more often that not that people like to include all the facts that support their own claims while conveniently disregarding any counter argument that is actually worth debating.
It is difficult to debate against those who will believe what they will believe simply because it's the stance they have always had. These people often leave no room to debate their particular beliefs which almost renders them incapable of even having a debate to begin with...since in ANY good debate, you have to be willing to at least ponder what your opposition is challenging you with.

I have stated before that I am willing to concede if and when all arguments have been resolved and I have done nothing but keep an open mind thus far. If the opposition cannot do the same, then we are no longer really debating. Those people are simply waiting for another chance to say:
you are wrong...

...with no facts again whatsover. Just opinons.

Just...what? How can you prove that the people in this thread haven't considered what you've said? I've read everything you've said, and I just haven't found any of it likely enough to change my final conclusion. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring you or being closed minded, and I don't think anyone else here is, either, considering that people have replied to your points and said why they disagree with them. It's not like you've presented any indisputable facts yourself.

So really, what do you want? It seems like you just want everyone to agree with your interpretations, which is pretty hypocritical.

[Senzu_Bean]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

[Bussani]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

Translation: "Everybody's closed minded because they don't agree with me!"