Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

[Savage68]

Moreover ,remember Son's conversation with Kaio-sama? Goku wanted the ultimate revenge against Freeza by destroying his pride completely. There was more to it than just the "challenge", this is not Vegeta's fuck up with letting Cell becoming perfect here.

Son was confident in his power, showing Freeza was no match even at 100%. Nowhere in the Manga do I see Goku regret his decision even in the slightest. No underestimating Freeza's power, zilch, Nada, zero, SSJ Son Goku was Freeza's superior in every way. 100% Freeza was never his equal at any time during the fight.

SSJ Son Goku> 100% Freeza

Just so we're clear: Goku > Freeza, we all accept that.

[MR.Mark]

Just so we're clear: Goku > Freeza, we all accept that.

Yes, but when people throw in monkey wrenches saying "well they were equal briefly when Freeza went 100%", that's when I have my beef. No ,Freeza was not equal to Son Goku as a SSJ, ever.

[Savage68]

No one said that they were equals.

Ever.

[MR.Mark]

No one said that they were equals.

Ever.

If you want to debate in the topic I suggest you pay attention, go read Cableguy15's posts.

[Savage68]

He's arguing the same thing I am. That they were near equals.

And nothing you've said has refuted that, tbh.

[MR.Mark]

He's arguing the same thing I am. That they were near equals.

the fight was very evenly matched

[Savage68]

Thank you for proving my point.

[Cableguy15]

No one said that they were equals.

Ever.

If you want to debate in the topic I suggest you pay attention, go read Cableguy15's posts.

Er, I've said several times that Goku was stronger, I don't know why you thought I was trying to argue otherwise. Maybe because I said they were closely matched? An even match doesn't necessarily mean equal fighters. Just that it takes some time to show who's superior between the two. Most examples of this have already been named, but Goku vs Piccolo (23rd Budokai) and Goku vs Cell are the best examples I can think of where that came into play.

It just so happens in this case that Freeza's 100% form kind of crapped out on him, so the fight wasn't very long. Goku even notes this just before he says he's leaving.

[MR.Mark]

Thank you for proving my point.

I'm rather confused at what that point is.

Savage68/Cableguy15: They were equal/nearly equal

Me: No, Goku dominated once he became a SSJ

Savage68: I know Goku was stronger ( )


My argument is that Goku is strong enough to the point that Freeza is NOT equal/near equal, my point is pretty clear on the matter.

Er, I've said several times that Goku was stronger, I don't know why you thought I was trying to argue otherwise. Maybe because I said they were closely matched? An even match doesn't necessarily mean equal fighters. Just that it takes some time to show who's superior between the two.

It just so happens in this case that Freeza's 100% form kind of crapped out on him, so the fight wasn't very long.

Well as long as you agree that even before it crapped out, 100% Freeza had no chance whatsoever, then we're on the same page.

[Cableguy15]

Okay, so you're indeed arguing that they weren't on a similar level then? I believe we posted sufficient evidence to show that Goku did not dominate the fight until Freeza's power went down. I posted pics and counted the landed hits in the fight, it was relatively even. Freeza even clashed with a bloodlusted Kamehameha head on. How is that dominating the fight in any way?

Well as long as you agree that even before it crapped out, 100% Freeza had no chance whatsoever, then we're on the same page.

Yes, I believe Goku would have won the fight eventually anyway (If the planet didn't explode first), but the gap between their powers was still fairly small. Small enough that they rivaled each other in power at least.

[Savage68]

Okay, so you're indeed arguing that they weren't on a similar level then? I believe we posted sufficient evidence to show that Goku did not dominate the fight until Freeza's power went down. I posted pics and counted the landed hits in the fight, it was relatively even. Freeza even clashed with a bloodlusted Kamehameha head on. How is that dominating the fight in any way?

I don't think there's anything left to say to him. He just seems to be incredibly obstinate, or he just hates Freeza. But the point made has been made decisively, and whatever counterarguments there have been are less than viable. To say the least.

[MR.Mark]

Okay, so you're indeed arguing that they weren't on a similar level then? I believe we posted sufficient evidence to show that Goku did not dominate the fight until Freeza's power went down. I posted pics and counted the landed hits in the fight, it was relatively even. Freeza even clashed with a bloodlusted Kamehameha head on. How is that dominating the fight in any way?

In the end, Son Goku proved his point, that they were not equals. As shooting ki at each other is completely different than exchanging fisticuffs. When the real fighting began AKA "the body blow battle" as Freeza put it. Goku started dominating, because at that point, he choose to end the fight and got completely serious. He was through humiliating Freeza, and the planet was about to blow, so he quit soon after whooping his ass.

That was one of the main points of Son Goku's entire last speech, that Freeza was NO match for him in the end, even at his 100% best. It was everything Freeza feared, coming true, his worst nightmare. Being defeated by a Super Saiyan and utterly humiliated by a force he was in denial about for most of his life. To suggest Freeza was equal with the legendary Super Saiyan, who's very destiny was to defeat him, just takes away from the story.

Yes, I believe Goku would have won the fight eventually anyway (If the planet didn't explode first), but the gap between their powers was still fairly small. Small enough that they rivaled each other in power at least.

Now we're just going in circles in this debate.

or he just hates Freeza.

Yep, that must be it, that's why I said in this very topic Freeza is one of my favorite villains of all time. I've also been nerd-gasming over the new English dub voice for the character, yep I hate Freeza, are you for real?

This is were the debate ends for me and we agree to disagree, I've backed up my opinions, so I take my leave.

[Kid Buu]

Goku ran away where as Freeza was still strong enough to endure a planet explosion, Freeza was the true winner.

This post was not meant to be taken seriously.

[Godo]

The fight itself was very evenly matched, but mainly because of Freeza's cheap shots.
But their powers weren't very evenly matched. To be very evenly matched, the difference between their powers should have a difference of around 1,000,000 - 5,000,000. But their difference was much higher, 30,000,000.

I don't think there's anything left to say to him. He just seems to be incredibly obstinate, or he just hates Freeza.

By your logic, you have to be incredibly obstinate or just hate Gohan. I'm basing this solely on the thread where we debated upon whether Gohan was at his full power against Cell or not, just as you are basing the character of Mr. Mark solely on this debate.

But the point made has been made decisively, and whatever counterarguments there have been are less than viable. To say the least.

Somehow, they always seem to be, right? Doesn't that make you curious how this can be? Are other people always wrong, or is it that you are...what was that word you used again...ah, obstinate?

[VegettoEX]

Another thread about comparing strengths ending up with rude, back-handed, sarcastic, and stubborn insults and dismissals tossed back and forth? We've gone over this before, but why am I not surprised...? What is it about these types of discussions that reduces everyone to children with their hands over their ears screaming "LAA LAA LAA I WON'T HEAR YOU!!"...?

Next one will be met with an immediate and permanent ban, in this or any other thread. If you can't find a way to carry on polite and accepting conversations with your fellow fans, this is not the forum for you to be on.

[Savage68]

To be very evenly matched, the difference between their powers should have a difference of around 1,000,000 - 5,000,000. But their difference was much higher, 30,000,000.

I'm not paying attention to the Daizenshuu's take on their powers, as with most other fights. I'm only citing the manga, and the manga appears to completely disregard the gap between their powers being that large. I don't know where a difference 30 million came from in the first place. If Freeza was 120 million, Goku would only need to have a battle power of about 135 million to end the match whenever he felt like it. But the Daiz says that he was at 150 million, even though Freeza gave him a good run for his money? I can't buy that.

[rereboy]

Well, the Daizenshuu is probably thinking in terms of percentage. 120 millions translates to 80% of 150 millions, meaning that Goku would have 20% more power.

If we considered that Goku had 135 millions and Freeza had 120 millions, then Freeza`s power would translate to about 89%, meaning that the difference would only be of 11%.

[Godo]

Still, the Daizenshuu's numbers explain why Goku wasn't out of breath against Freeza. If he had a higher power, then surely he would have a higher stamina during the fight.
If they were more or less equal, then Goku would be in a pretty bad state too.

[caejones]

Well, the Daizenshuu is probably thinking in terms of percentage. 120 millions translates to 80% of 150 millions, meaning that Goku would have 20% more power.

If we considered that Goku had 135 millions and Freeza had 120 millions, then Freeza`s power would translate to about 89%, meaning that the difference would only be of 11%.

I've seen the Vegeta/Cui fight cited as a "percentage comparison" of sorts.
Cui had a battle power of 18000, while Vegeta was in the 20-25000 range. Was there an exact number (or more precise than mine) given for Vegeta at that point? It was over 21000, right?
Of course, 1800 would be 10% of 18000... so Vegeta being at 20000 would be over an 11% difference.
20% would be 3600... if Vegeta's power was less than 21600, then Goku should have had no trouble vaporizing Freeza based on the 150,000,000/120,000,000 numbers.

o_o *Burns scouters*

[rereboy]

Well, I believe Vegeta had a power level of 24000 at that time.

18000 is 75% of that, so its a difference of 25%.