Why all the hate for Cell and Buu Sagas?

[Cipher]

Thanks for the clarification. Then Goku's intentions were a little more pure than just "I'm gonna beat him up some more" in that case.

Yes, but he chose to heal him and let him go when they had him trapped and paralyzed. There are always rice-cookers lying around, you know?

Point is, if Vegeta had been the one to hand Piccolo a Senzu at the tournament, the world would be overrun with demonic Namekians a day later, or some such thing.

[Gaffer Tape]

I admit the one thing I didn't get about that was how willing Ma Junior was to give up and fly away at that point. When everyone else freaked out, they seemed to have the right idea. There was no reason why the fight shouldn't have just started up all over again. It wasn't a Goku vs. Freeza type of fight where one is clearly outmatched against the other. Goku won only by the slightest of margins, and, honestly, didn't even win in the sense of a real fight. He headbutted Ma out of the ring. It was only Goku who cared so much for the rules of the tournament. Now that they were both back at full power, Ma had every reason to just start fighting again and every reason to believe he might be successful this time.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Logic would dictate that Goku should have gotten a nice Zenkai after the fight, giving him an advantage over Piccolo. This may be the case too, since Goku states he hasn't done any serious training or developed any new techniques since the 23rd Budoukai when Raditz arrives. Yet Goku and Piccolo are nearly even in power, and it's obvious that big green had been training. So perhaps Piccolo sensed Goku's boost in power and decided that since he was just defeated, starting another fight so soon wouldn't benefit him. That took place the chapter before the Saiyans were introduced, so I'm sure the Saiyan traits had probably already been decided on. It isn't that much of a stretch.

I personally have no opinion on the matter, that bit of the story doesn't really bug me at all, so I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[Gaffer Tape]

It doesn't really bug me that much either, and I'm sure you're right that the Saiya-jin had been created at that point, the whole power boost from injury isn't shown until the Freeza arc, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that Toriyama thought of it before that point. I mean, you could be right, there's really no evidence, and your explanation works quite well as an informed rationalization, but I'm still not entirely sure it works in the context of when it was written.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Kuririn does make a note to say Goku had been staying ahead of the rest of the Z Senshi all the time via zenkais once Vegeta reveals to him that it is a Saiyan trait during the Freeza arc. But Vegeta comments on the trait basically right after the Saiyan arc right before he kills Kui. I know that our favorite mangaka is known for not really thinking ahead and making stuff up on the fly, but since Kami-sama and Piccolo were planed to be aliens since Goku went to the heavenly realm, Goku being a Saiyan and the traits of that race may have been developed around the same time. If not, it can be considered a retcon if desired for much earlier arcs, but I'm not sure it really presents a problem for the 23rd Budoukai till it is officially brought up.

i.e. Just because Newton hadn't written the laws of gravity yet, doesn't mean gravity wasn't affecting things before his time.

Honestly though, when it comes to Toriyama Akira, there is just no telling. Even his actual planned out explanations seem a little odd at times. xD

[Xyex]

Goku gives the demon king a senzu bean, and he ends up becoming good and defending the Earth.
Goku spares Vegeta, and he saves everyone's life on Namek.
Goku lets Freeza power up, and he fully crushes his ego and gets to learn wacky techniques in space afterward.
Goku lets Majin Buu go and ... well, honestly, this doesn't go so well, but he gets to come back in at the end of the arc for a full redemption.

Actually there is one time where Goku did pay for sparing a villain. Letting go off Raditz's tail led to his own death.

Which lead to him receiving the training necessary in order to defeat Nappa and Vegeta, as well as the idea of increased gravity which lead to him being strong enough to easily defeat, and also granted him the technique to kill Majin Buu with later.

I think it counts as another "Goku's screw up helps him save the day" moment.

[Gaffer Tape]

i.e. Just because Newton hadn't written the laws of gravity yet, doesn't mean gravity wasn't affecting things before his time.

That rule doesn't exactly apply to fictional universes, though. In real life, gravity has always existed, we just didn't necessarily know about it or how it worked. In fiction, plot elements simply don't exist until the author comes up with it; therefore, it is simply impossible for those elements to affect the story.

[Zephyr]

Thanks for the clarification. Then Goku's intentions were a little more pure than just "I'm gonna beat him up some more" in that case.

Yes, but he chose to heal him and let him go when they had him trapped and paralyzed. There are always rice-cookers lying around, you know?

Okay, you've got me there.

[Xyex]

i.e. Just because Newton hadn't written the laws of gravity yet, doesn't mean gravity wasn't affecting things before his time.

That rule doesn't exactly apply to fictional universes, though. In real life, gravity has always existed, we just didn't necessarily know about it or how it worked. In fiction, plot elements simply don't exist until the author comes up with it; therefore, it is simply impossible for those elements to affect the story.

Not true. Often times explanations for things are not thought up until well after said things have happened. And beyond that, that's what a retcon is. When a retcon is introduced that means its always been there, period. Just like Goku's always been a Saiya-jin and Piccolo's always been a Namekian.

[Gaffer Tape]

i.e. Just because Newton hadn't written the laws of gravity yet, doesn't mean gravity wasn't affecting things before his time.

That rule doesn't exactly apply to fictional universes, though. In real life, gravity has always existed, we just didn't necessarily know about it or how it worked. In fiction, plot elements simply don't exist until the author comes up with it; therefore, it is simply impossible for those elements to affect the story.

Not true. Often times explanations for things are not thought up until well after said things have happened. And beyond that, that's what a retcon is. When a retcon is introduced that means its always been there, period. Just like Goku's always been a Saiya-jin and Piccolo's always been a Namekian.

You're right. It's not true for things like, say, Harry Potter, where the plot details were thought up well in advance, and the readers just didn't know about it until the author chose to reveal it. However, it's extremely true for something like Dragon Ball where we know that Toriyama rarely decided anything in advance. And yes, retcons can do anything they want, but you're thinking far too "in-universe." No amount of retconning can ever really change the context in which material was written. It simply encourages you, the reader (or viewer), to imbue a new context into it. It may be a fine and dandy context. It might even work better than the original context. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a context that simply was not there.

No matter how much "depth" you can get out of Uncle Owen saying in Star Wars he's afraid Luke will turn out like his father when you imbue that Luke's father is Darth Vader, it doesn't change the fact that that context had not been invented in 1977, and that neither actor nor director had that intention in mind. Likewise, no matter how much you think of Brutz waves and Saiya-jin when Goku's smashing Pilaf's castle, it doesn't change the fact that those elements simply did not exist at the time.

[Xyex]

No matter how much "depth" you can get out of Uncle Owen saying in Star Wars he's afraid Luke will turn out like his father when you imbue that Luke's father is Darth Vader, it doesn't change the fact that that context had not been invented in 1977, and that neither actor nor director had that intention in mind.

Um... what? Vader was always intended to be Anakin Skywalker.

Likewise, no matter how much you think of Brutz waves and Saiya-jin when Goku's smashing Pilaf's castle, it doesn't change the fact that those elements simply did not exist at the time.

They may not have existed at the time of writing, but that's what a retcon does. It changes/adds things that came before it.

[Gaffer Tape]

No matter how much "depth" you can get out of Uncle Owen saying in Star Wars he's afraid Luke will turn out like his father when you imbue that Luke's father is Darth Vader, it doesn't change the fact that that context had not been invented in 1977, and that neither actor nor director had that intention in mind.

Um... what? Vader was always intended to be Anakin Skywalker.

Really don't need to turn this into a Star Wars discussion but, no, that's not true in the least. George Lucas and Toriyama Akira wrote their respective... opuses... opi... hmm... in much the same way. The difference is Toriyama actually has the Dragon Balls to admit that he made it up as he went along while Lucas would rather just lie to you. But to offer you proof, let me just inform you that the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back has Luke meeting the ghost of his father on Dagobah, which ever so slightly keeps him from being Darth Vader.

Likewise, no matter how much you think of Brutz waves and Saiya-jin when Goku's smashing Pilaf's castle, it doesn't change the fact that those elements simply did not exist at the time.

They may not have existed at the time of writing, but that's what a retcon does. It changes/adds things that came before it.

Hmm. Did you not read any of the rest of my post? There's nothing you're saying that I'm not agreeing with in what a retcon is supposed to do. I'm simply saying it doesn't change the fact that a "retroactive continuity change" does not directly affect anything that came before it. Unless you're a dishonest writer, it doesn't go back into your earlier stories and add Bulma stumbling upon a space pod right before she meets Goku. It doesn't have Karin mention that Goku's maximum strength has risen after he eats a senzu. The only thing a retcon directly affects is the story that follows and the way you look at the story that preceded it... well, if you let it. Again, that's why I said you're looking at things from an "in-universe" perspective whereas I am looking at it from a real-world perspective. In an in-universe perspective, Goku was always an alien sent to destroy earth, and we just didn't know about it. In a real-world perspective, Goku was just a fantasy monkey king until shortly before Raditz comes to earth, and Goku suddenly becomes an alien. In an in-universe perspective, Darth Vader always was Luke's father. In a real-world perspective, the two characters weren't merged until Lucas's second draft of Empire in 1978; before that, and in the entirety of the first movie, they're separate characters because that was the author's intent at that time. However, in both a real-world perspective and in-universe perspective, Tom Riddle's diary was always a horcrux, and we just didn't know about it, but it was always written with that context in mind.

To put simply, my argument is that since Toriyama had most likely never thought of a near-death power up at the time he was writing the Goku/Ma Junior fight, the context for it simply does not exist. Your argument is that, since we find out at some point that Goku is a Saiya-jin, and that we find out at some point that Saiya-jin have this particular trait, it becomes applicable to everything that came before it. I don't see either viewpoint as being wrong, just incompatible with one another.

[Saimaroimaru]

Majin Buu's revival was thanks to Vegeta as usually trying to best Goku and when he tried to beat Buu by nuking himself, Buu he failed at that. If they wanted to beat Buu earlier they should have just let Buu absorb Vegeta and contract his stupid virus.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Hmm. Did you not read any of the rest of my post? There's nothing you're saying that I'm not agreeing with in what a retcon is supposed to do. I'm simply saying it doesn't change the fact that a "retroactive continuity change" does not directly affect anything that came before it. Unless you're a dishonest writer, it doesn't go back into your earlier stories and add Bulma stumbling upon a space pod right before she meets Goku. It doesn't have Karin mention that Goku's maximum strength has risen after he eats a senzu. The only thing a retcon directly affects is the story that follows and the way you look at the story that preceded it... well, if you let it. Again, that's why I said you're looking at things from an "in-universe" perspective whereas I am looking at it from a real-world perspective. In an in-universe perspective, Goku was always an alien sent to destroy earth, and we just didn't know about it. In a real-world perspective, Goku was just a fantasy monkey king until shortly before Raditz comes to earth, and Goku suddenly becomes an alien. In an in-universe perspective, Darth Vader always was Luke's father. In a real-world perspective, the two characters weren't merged until Lucas's second draft of Empire in 1978; before that, and in the entirety of the first movie, they're separate characters because that was the author's intent at that time. However, in both a real-world perspective and in-universe perspective, Tom Riddle's diary was always a horcrux, and we just didn't know about it, but it was always written with that context in mind.

To put simply, my argument is that since Toriyama had most likely never thought of a near-death power up at the time he was writing the Goku/Ma Junior fight, the context for it simply does not exist. Your argument is that, since we find out at some point that Goku is a Saiya-jin, and that we find out at some point that Saiya-jin have this particular trait, it becomes applicable to everything that came before it. I don't see either viewpoint as being wrong, just incompatible with one another.

That entire argument is invalid due to one major fallacy, you are comparing apples and oranges. You can't compare Toriyama's finished work against itself, Rowling's finished work against itself, and then Lucas' finished work against a draft of another portion. Vader may not have been intended to be Luke's father in the first movie or the draft of the second, but the draft doesn't count, it was never made into a movie for the public therefore the universe was never retconned. The produced movies that the fans viewed are always seen with Vader being his pop, only in Lucas' head and on an unimportant set of papers was the idea ever even tossed around. We were never told in the first movie that they were different, and the second movie tells us they are related, the viewer doesn't have to go back and look at anything differently.

[Gaffer Tape]

No. I'm not doing that in any way, shape, or form. I'm comparing his finished first movie to his finished other movies. I did not bring up the idea of a discarded draft as an example of canonicity. I simply brought it up so that no one could come in and say, "Nuh-uh. Obi-Wan's just lying in the first movie." The first draft of the second movie was written in the context of the completed first film in which all the dialogue about Luke's father is taken literally. I don't know how long it's been since you've seen Star Wars, but the audience IS explicitly told that Darth Vader killed Luke's father, which is an idea in direct opposition to what we learn in Empire. So I really don't see how I'm doing anything but comparing red delicious apples to red delicious apples. It's nearly EXACTLY the same. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Dragon Ball leaves ever so slightly more room open, as Goku's natural heritage is never explored while his original backstory is still intact, and it's established from the outset that he's adopted. Not that that makes any difference. A retcon is still a plot addition that didn't exist in the context of the original work, whether it's shoehorned in over a direct contradiction or just happens to fit in a bit more smoothly.

[jjgp1112]

But the thing is, in the very scene where Vader makes a big reveal, he makes it a point to say that what Obi-Wan told him wasn't true. It can't be a retcon because a retcon completely ignores a past plot element without even addressing it. Darth Vader revealing he was Luke's father actually explains why the previous plot element should be ignored, even if George Lucas never planned it from the beginning.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm not sure where you get that idea. Retcons frequently address what came before it, and saying something is a "lie" is quite a common way of doing so. Don't believe me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon#Types

Specifically look under the "Alteration" section, which is specifically about, "What you saw before wasn't true. This is what really happened." The next section "Subtraction" is what you're talking about it, but neither is more or less a retcon than the other. Goku's transition to an alien, for example, fits under the "Addition" section for the most part.

[Kid Buu]

Goku gives the demon king a senzu bean, and he ends up becoming good and defending the Earth.
Goku spares Vegeta, and he saves everyone's life on Namek.
Goku lets Freeza power up, and he fully crushes his ego and gets to learn wacky techniques in space afterward.
Goku lets Majin Buu go and ... well, honestly, this doesn't go so well, but he gets to come back in at the end of the arc for a full redemption.

Actually there is one time where Goku did pay for sparing a villain. Letting go off Raditz's tail led to his own death.

Which lead to him receiving the training necessary in order to defeat Nappa and Vegeta, as well as the idea of increased gravity which lead to him being strong enough to easily defeat, and also granted him the technique to kill Majin Buu with later.

I think it counts as another "Goku's screw up helps him save the day" moment.

Yes, but check this logic out.

1. Goku allowed Freeza to go to 100%
2. Goku beat Freeza, but failed to kill him.
3. Due to failing to kill Freeza, Freeza comes to Earth as Mecha Freeza.
4. Mecha Freeza's appearance leads to him being a part of Cell.
5. Cell having Freeza in him allows to breathe in outer space.

If Cell couldn't breathe in outer space, after Goku stopped him from blowing up Earth Cell would have just suffocated in space when he regenerated...thus Goku would have technically been the one to stop Cell. But since he didn't kill Freeza on Namek, Gohan was the one to stop Cell.

>_______>

Edit: And then there is the fact that Cell did not even regenerate in outer space, which destroys this entire theory.

[Gaffer Tape]

But when was Cell ever in space? He regenerated in the afterlife, where Goku had teleported him.

[Kid Buu]

OH, right...odd. For some reason I could have sworn he regenerate in outer space but yeah your right.