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[p123]

If Vegeta got a full night's rest I'm sure he could have accessed all of his power. No way was Vegeta able to access everything he had in just that quick 15 minute nap.


Yea studies actually say that staying up over 24 hours cuts down your brain function down 50%. That's pretty amazing don't you think?

[dbgtFO]

This is why I basically don't think Daizenshuu 7 got it somewhat right on these two.

I too do think Akira Toriyama got a lot of stuff wrong on the manga, yet I don't regard them as illogical cause I don't have the authority to do so.

I mistyped, I meant the exact opposite(one of the few times I actually agree with Daiz 7 ).

[astrallite]

The power level increases seemed rushed in the Freeza arc. It would have been much better if Freeza was EXACTLY the power level he originally stated, 530,000. The zenkai's were beyond ridiculous during the Freeza Saga.

Also the 50x power increase of super saiyan never seemed to make much sense to me. If nobody ever mentioned anything about power multipliers, the way they fought (especially the semi-retcon that was the Android Arc, when all the explosions got progressively smaller, and the battleground scale steadily decreased), you would think Super Saiyan merely doubled their power.

[dbgtFO]

The power level increases seemed rushed in the Freeza arc. It would have been much better if Freeza was EXACTLY the power level he originally stated, 530,000. The zenkai's were beyond ridiculous during the Freeza Saga.

Indeed, then Freeza's statement about Goku being stronger, than Ginyu would also make more sense.

[p123]

Agreed. AT forced on us this ridicolously powered up villian at 530k. Then he ridicolously increases on top of that. It really feels that he is put on such a higher level than anyone else as if to signify the end all be all of villians. Maybe AT didn't intend to end the series at Freeza, but he sure as hell wasn't thinking about future villians which would have to top this ridicolously overpowered beast. The increases just get stupidly high, and out of control.

[astrallite]

I personally don't like the battle power system at all and it becomes completely irrelevant after the Freeza arc.

Akira Toriyama himself supercedes it with the kiri system. Super Saiyan 1 = 3,000 kiri. Dabra states 2 things, first, it takes over 4,000 kiri to defeat him, and two, that it takes 100-200 kiri to destroy the world.

Toriyama completely contradicts himself with the kiri system that he introduced in the Buu saga. If Super Saiyan was really a 50x modifier, then Goku would only have 60 Kiri at base. No matter how you look at it, it would imply Goku's base is below 500,000 BP, since the first planet buster we witnessed was Freeza at 530,000 BP.

To me the entire power level system was retconned after the Freeza arc, and everybody got depowered significantly. Explosions got smaller, and the Z fighters started fighting in more cramped locations. Its almost like Toriyama said "Kaio-ken never existed, and Super Saiyan is a 2x modifier."

Curiously, most of the trading cards seem to indicate that Super Saiyan is only a single digit or even percentage modifier. The officially licensed Bandai cards uses the "DP system". Pre-Freeza Saga Bandai cards (accurately) used the BP (battle power) system from the scouters. It's not completely obvious if there's some sort of connection between BP and DP.

It has (from weakest to strongest):

Android 19: DP 600
Super Saiyan Trunks (Android Saga): DP 700
Super Saiyan Goku (Freeza Saga): DP 750
Super Saiyan Goku (Android Saga): DP 800
Super Piccolo: DP 850
Android 17/18: DP 900
Semi-Perfect Cell: DP 1000
Super Saiyan Goten: DP 1200
Super Vegeta: DP 1250
Super Trunks: DP 1250
Super Saiyan Goku (Cell Games): DP 1400
Perfect Cell: DP 1500
Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan: DP 1800
Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan (Budoukai): DP 1800
Super Perfect Cell: DP 2000
Broly (Movie 8 ): DP 2300
Dabura: DP 2300
Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta: DP 2500
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: DP 3000
Fat Buu: DP 3000
Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks: DP 3000
Super Buu (Base): DP 3200
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: DP 3200
Ultimate Gohan: DP 3400
Gogeta: DP 3400
Buutenks (Super Saiyan 3): DP3500
Kid Buu: DP 3700
Super Saiyan 2 Vegito: DP 3850
Final Genki Dama: DP 3900

I'll post some of these images up in a bit...

[Bussani]

Toriyama completely contradicts himself with the kiri system that he introduced in the Buu saga. If Super Saiyan was really a 50x modifier, then Goku would only have 60 Kiri at base. No matter how you look at it, it would imply Goku's base is below 500,000 BP, since the first planet buster we witnessed was Freeza at 530,000 BP.

You're assuming that the modifier would still be x50 in kiri. That would only be the case if the relationship between battle powers and kiri was very simple (e.g. 1 kiri = 500 battle power, just as a random example based on nothing). The conversion process likely isn't that simple; it's probably more like the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius.

[astrallite]

I believe in logarithmic power conversion. That 2x as strong would require 10x the ki.

This more closely resembles true physics, i.e., it would take a hell of a lot more than twice as many joules of energy to accomplish twice as much work. Doubling your speed in a jet plane drains fuel at an exponentially greater amount. A jet fighter that can supercruise (mach 1) for 3-4 hours will burn out fuel going mach 2 in about 10 minutes.

That's something I've always believed and that's why I feel battle power is completely worthless as a measure of power. It was only interesting pre-Freeza saga while people were talking about battle power with crazed expressions.

[dbgtFO]

Toriyama completely contradicts himself with the kiri system that he introduced in the Buu saga. If Super Saiyan was really a 50x modifier, then Goku would only have 60 Kiri at base. No matter how you look at it, it would imply Goku's base is below 500,000 BP, since the first planet buster we witnessed was Freeza at 530,000 BP.

You're assuming that the modifier would still be x50 in kiri. That would only be the case if the relationship between battle powers and kiri was very simple (e.g. 1 kiri = 500 battle power, just as a random example based on nothing). The conversion process likely isn't that simple; it's probably more like the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius.

I don't even know, why he would go on to say, that Goku at 3000 kiri was his full power, because I have always intepreted, that scene, as Goku basically showcasing light, since, that's what he wanted to do, he doesn't even power up the same way, as he did against Cell. He simply goes Super Saiyan, just like Goten and Trunks did, before they showed their full power to Goku at Dende's lookout.

I personally see it as this(note that I ignore anime Dabra's statements:

Kiri's relation to Fight/Battle Power:

Kiri = 1; BP = 100.000, which means...
Yakon: Kiri = 800; BP = 80.000.000 and next one up...
Goku(unspecified fraction of SSJ power): Kiri = 3000; BP = 300.000.000.

That's my fanon theory anyways...

[Fox666]

I agree, ignore Dabura statements in the anime. just 1 Kiri should be enough to destroy a planet (Vegeta did not had even 1% of his current base power when he tried to destroy the Earth).

However, I just won't take that serious the battle beetween Goku base state vs Yakon. The battle basically consists of Goku dodging some attack (but close to be hit) and hit a kick on Yakon face.

Goku is a tremendous martial artist fighter and really fast in proportion to his battle power (remember the Ginyu force battle?), Yakon is just a monster with big claws.

And as Goku clarified, he can sense the Ki and because of that he hit Yakon face in the dark. In other words, Yakon wasn't expecting Goku to hit him. It can be interpretated as no different than the kick Vegeta delivered in Android 19 cheek.

So, I see it acceptable that Yakon in fact had a battle power 10 times that of Goku.

The power level increases seemed rushed in the Freeza arc. It would have been much better if Freeza was EXACTLY the power level he originally stated, 530,000. The zenkai's were beyond ridiculous during the Freeza Saga.

Also the 50x power increase of super saiyan never seemed to make much sense to me. If nobody ever mentioned anything about power multipliers, the way they fought (especially the semi-retcon that was the Android Arc, when all the explosions got progressively smaller, and the battleground scale steadily decreased), you would think Super Saiyan merely doubled their power.

I agree.

The Super Saiyan form MUST increase by 50 times because the Oozaru increase the power 10 times. I mean, why would Vegeta be so suprised by his transformation, since he can turn in Oozaru almost at will? Either way, it should be a multiplier beyond that of the Oozaru transformation from a plot analysis.

It would be much better if Freeza 1st form has a battle power around 50,000 in his first form. Since there is no real connection beetween the battle against Ginyu and the battle against Freeza, all battle powers of the Freeza saga would be 10 times smaller (not to say it would fix Vegeta misterious power-up). Freeza would state his second form is "over 100,000" and Goku would have a battle power of 300,000. Instead of Kaio-ken 10x and 20x, it would be merely 2x and 4x. That would make Freeza 50% as 1,200,000 and Goku Super Saiyan 3,000,000.

[p123]

That's a real strong attempt to make 50x SSJ work. Base Goku was 10x weaker than Yakkon? I'll pass on that.

Astrallite, you have some interesting theories. I like your logarithmic theory.

I read somewhere I believe on this site, that the 800-3,000 numbers have a specific meaning to them. That those two numbers together signify a great distance.. Something comparable to Americans when we say " Oh, he's a million times better than the other guy" Which is not meant to be seriously looked at in such detail but just a saying. Is there any basis for this?

I have done some transfer overing of the killi system using my numbers would you be interesting in seeing them? The kiri system is actually pretty darn close to where I am at at least numerically..

For example in my list

Yakon 800 ( Kiri ) / (Mine) 1 billion, which could be used as 1,000 Kiri perhaps?


Which would make Freeza 100 or so in the system... Would you guys like to see a complete transferring over of the kiri system or would I be wasting my time?

[dbgtFO]

That's a real strong attempt to make 50x SSJ work. Base Goku was 10x weaker than Yakkon? I'll pass on that.

Yeah, go with my ideas instead.

Astrallite, you have some interesting theories. I like your logarithmic theory.

I don't.

I read somewhere I believe on this site, that the 800-3,000 numbers have a specific meaning to them. That those two numbers together signify a great distance.. Something comparable to Americans when we say " Oh, he's a million times better than the other guy" Which is not meant to be seriously looked at in such detail but just a saying. Is there any basis for this?

You got it from here at the very bottom

I have done some transfer overing of the killi system using my numbers would you be interesting in seeing them? The kiri system is actually pretty darn close to where I am at at least numerically..

For example in my list

Yakon 800 ( Kiri ) / (Mine) 1 billion, which could be used as 1,000 Kiri perhaps?


Which would make Freeza 100 or so in the system... Would you guys like to see a complete transferring over of the kiri system or would I be wasting my time?

You would be wasting our time, since mine should be accepted, as canon .
But of course, if you have converted them in a way, that makes sense I would like to see them

In my conversion 100% Freeza is at 1200, and Dabra is WAY above 4000 obviously.. I put him at 17.000, since he didn't seem scared of suppressed SSJ Goku at all, rather surprised, that a human could go that high up.

[p123]

Well I just used...


Yakon 800
Base Goku 800
SSJ Goku 4000


But IMO, Goku was suppressing the whole time, to hide his true power from Vegeta I assume. Man, Vegeta is like Goku's GF, he has to worry about his nonsense and his pride and stuff.

So for example I think Goku against Yakon, 800/4000 would be equivilant to Goku at the Cell Games.

Vegeta is a bit stronger, and Kid Gohan a bit stronger than that as well, then with Goku's true power a bit stronger than that as well.

I think I ended up with

Dabura 3800
SSJ Teen Gohan 3600

And so on... I could try to find the acurate thread, but I have been meaning to do a full kiri translation, and I think you have given me a good reason to do so...


Having the numbers a lot lower is cool. Ill get back to you on that.

[dbgtFO]

I have normal Goku at 750(almost as strong, as Yakon), while his full power SSJ is obviously 50 times that(37.500), since I don't believe in Goku reaching a Super Saiyan wall.

And I don't buy that decreasing multiplier as well, because such a thing should have been commented on IMO.

But it's good we are working with these low numbers, they make it easier for the eyes
And yeah I would like to see your kiri conversion.. maybe in that unofficial power levels thread?

[Fox666]

Yeah, go with my ideas instead.

Well, if you really want to take the more plausible theory, it is simply...

Toriyama don't give such importance to the consistency of battle powers, not to say that is had been years since he wrote the Freeza saga. He just don't remember such details

Yakon SHOULD be over 10 times Goku strength. Do you think Toriyama would take in mind such obscure ideas like "Goku was only using part of his power" or "Kiri are exponential numbers" or stuff like that? Toriyama simply already forget the detail of battle powers when he come up with 3,000 and 800.

Curiously, most of the trading cards seem to indicate that Super Saiyan is only a single digit or even percentage modifier. The officially licensed Bandai cards uses the "DP system". Pre-Freeza Saga Bandai cards (accurately) used the BP (battle power) system from the scouters. It's not completely obvious if there's some sort of connection between BP and DP.

It has (from weakest to strongest):

Android 19: DP 600
Super Saiyan Trunks (Android Saga): DP 700
Super Saiyan Goku (Freeza Saga): DP 750
Super Saiyan Goku (Android Saga): DP 800
Super Piccolo: DP 850
Android 17/18: DP 900
Semi-Perfect Cell: DP 1000
Super Saiyan Goten: DP 1200
Super Vegeta: DP 1250
Super Trunks: DP 1250
Super Saiyan Goku (Cell Games): DP 1400
Perfect Cell: DP 1500
Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan: DP 1800
Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan (Budoukai): DP 1800
Super Perfect Cell: DP 2000
Broly (Movie 8 ): DP 2300
Dabura: DP 2300
Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta: DP 2500
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: DP 3000
Fat Buu: DP 3000
Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks: DP 3000
Super Buu (Base): DP 3200
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: DP 3200
Ultimate Gohan: DP 3400
Gogeta: DP 3400
Buutenks (Super Saiyan 3): DP3500
Kid Buu: DP 3700
Super Saiyan 2 Vegito: DP 3850
Final Genki Dama: DP 3900

I'll post some of these images up in a bit...

Thanks for that dude! That's good to know!

Despite some mistakes on the hierarchy of that list, it's still some stuff that is always good to know.

[p123]

I really don't see the big issue with the decreasing multiplier theory. One segment from something in the Freeza Arc should not predetermine everything. There are definitley hints of a small multiplier being used in the Buu Arc. IMO it's more of a stretch to say Goku is 10x weaker than Yakon in base than a decreasing multiplier. You just gotta pick what makes sense.

If Goku was really that weak in base, Gohan wouldn't tell him to revert back to base and let him help Goku. 10x weaker than someone means that even with 10 people 10x weaker than the opponent, you have no chance.

Honestly it's more about people caring about the 50x boost. Who cares? It's not our story, their are plenty of implications that it's not a 50x boost, I just don't get it. But I do understand somewhat, as I was a heavy 50x supporter for a long time, and how the decreasing multiplier used to make me ROFL as well, but eventually the logic is overwhelming , at least in my case.

[Fox666]

Decreasing multiplier DOES make sense. However, that doesn't mean it really exists. It's just a way to counter plot holes.

[p123]

Why is it a plot hole, if it's in the actual plot? I think plot holes is an unneccesary term. I generally have found many ways to explain these supposed plot holes that is far better than just calling them a plot hole. If you throw one at me, I will show you what I mean.

It actually makes sense if you ask me, because just multiplying your power 400 fold is just ridicolous, I mean your body is going to be uber strained. You can't just multiply your power a million times over, your base is still your base of operations, and there is only so much it could deal with...

[dbgtFO]

Yakon SHOULD be over 10 times Goku strength. Do you think Toriyama would take in mind such obscure ideas like "Goku was only using part of his power" or "Kiri are exponential numbers" or stuff like that? Toriyama simply already forget the detail of battle powers when he come up with 3,000 and 800.

Do you have any actual proof?
And yes, when we know, that Goku is able to suppress his power, as a Super Saiyan, which is also shown later, even children can do, and Goku at first only wanted to show light you can't just say, that Toriyama didn't know shit.
I know it's a reference to an old japanese saying, but that still doesn't mean, that Goku have to be at full power just because you want him to.

You don't have any proof to back up your claim, unless of course you link me to an article, where Toriyama admits Goku was at full power.
Seriously man, seriously..!

[p123]

Anyone who thinks that Yakon and Base Goku are miles apart are not thinking clearly. Some stupid implied boost in the Freeza Saga should hold no weight over that issue.

Base Goku is in the same stratosphere as Yakon. Suggesting otherwise, is only to make your precious 50x boost work, which for the life of me, is not neccessary. Nowhere in the manga does it say the SSJ boost must always be the same!