Boo Saga Plot Holes/Inconsistencies

[Senzu_Bean]

The obvious answer is...

Toriyama screwed, like he so many times did before and after.

[dbgtFO]

The obvious answer is...

Toriyama screwed, like he so many times did before and after.

He should have shown us the entirety of the fight IMO, so yeah he did screw up.

[Savage68]

He has no lightning. Goku and Vegeta are surrounded by it on the page before and the page after.

He was also in the process of firing a Kamehameha, an act that often omits aspects of the form's distinctive properties. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan lacks lighting in his aura for the majority of his struggle with Super Perfect Cell. In addition to this, Kaioshin later mentions to Kibito that he (Kibito) never had the chance to see how powerful Gohan really was, while we all know that SSJ2 Gohan's power was felt clearly one volume back, at the Budokai. Unless you think a SSJ1's Kamehameha can even begin to approach a suppressed (assuming Gohan was suppressed at the Budokai, which can go either way) SSJ2's power, Gohan had to have displayed a higher degree of strength in-between the Budokai's end and Kibito's revival.

[Rocketman]

Unless you think a SSJ1's Kamehameha can even begin to approach a suppressed (assuming Gohan was suppressed at the Budokai, which can go either way) SSJ2's power, Gohan had to have displayed a higher degree of strength in-between the Budokai's end and Kibito's revival.

No, I think Supreme Kai is an idiot.

[Savage68]

That doesn't help your argument, unfortunately. There would be no way to disprove what he said.

[Rocketman]

Another track, then.

He was also in the process of firing a Kamehameha, an act that often omits aspects of the form's distinctive properties.

No he wasn't. From the time he powers up while saying "I can't be the way I was then" until he charges the Kamehameha he has no lightning, even in the panel just before he makes the hand motions where he goes RAAAAAAHH and his aura bursts. He then has no lightning at all from immediately after firing the Kamehameha until Buu shuts him the fuck down, despite having an aura.

So, what did Supreme Kai sense, if you're going to listen to him for whatever reason? Gohan's rage boost. The Rage of Gohan is separate from Super Saiyan, it always has been. Just as his massive Ragin' didn't push him into Super Saiyan, it is not a given that Raging while SS immediately turns him into an SS2.

[Son_Gohan]

So, what did Supreme Kai sense, if you're going to listen to him for whatever reason? Gohan's rage boost. The Rage of Gohan is separate from Super Saiyan, it always has been. Just as his massive Ragin' didn't push him into Super Saiyan, it is not a given that Raging while SS immediately turns him into an SS2.

Although after Gohan's Kamehameha attempt and thinking Majin Buu's release to be a dud, Kaioshin remarks imply that he hadn't shown a "rage boost" yet:

(VIZ translation): "Just like your father said - now is the time to let yourself feel your rage!!! Show us your true power!!!"

[Rocketman]

Although after Gohan's Kamehameha attempt and thinking Majin Buu's release to be a dud, Kaioshin remarks imply that he hadn't shown a "rage boost" yet:

(VIZ translation): "Just like your father said - now is the time to let yourself feel your rage!!! Show us your true power!!!"

How would he know what a rage boost feels like?

[Savage68]

No he wasn't. From the time he powers up while saying "I can't be the way I was then" until he charges the Kamehameha he has no lightning, even in the panel just before he makes the hand motions where he goes RAAAAAAHH and his aura bursts. He then has no lightning at all from immediately after firing the Kamehameha until Buu shuts him the fuck down, despite having an aura.

Uh... yeah, that's sorta what I was getting at. Kid Gohan has no lightning from the moment when he begins powering-up in preparation for SPC's Kamehameha until the moment when it was all over. In fact, Kid Gohan didn't have an aura at all after he was weakened. Once again -- there is an explicit example of a SSJ2 being drawn without lightning in their aura, when in a powered-up state, and there's no way for you to disprove that Gohan was a SSJ2 when attacking Buu's ball.

So, what did Supreme Kai sense, if you're going to listen to him for whatever reason?

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan firing a Kamehameha, obviously.

How would he know what a rage boost feels like?

Why would you even say this after asserting that Kaioshin had sensed Gohan's "rage boost?"

[Rocketman]

Once again -- there is an explicit example of a SSJ2 being drawn without lightning in their aura, when in a powered-up state, and there's no way for you to disprove that Gohan was a SSJ2 when attacking Buu's ball.

Why would Gohan jump up to SS2 instantly, power down immediately after firing (so fast not a stray lightning bolt appears at all), and then not power up again when he senses Buu's massive ki?

Why would you even say this after asserting that Kaioshin had sensed Gohan's "rage boost?"

Because it ties into "Supreme Kai doesn't know shit". He's scared of Pocus after seeing SS2 Gohan, after all.

More specifically:

-Gohan rage boosts
-Kai senses Gohan's power spike, which goes over his resting SS2 level, but does not realize that it is a rage boost
--"Wow this guy's really powerful!"

Honestly, though, everybody's retarded because everybody is retarded in the Buu arc.

[dbgtFO]

Once again -- there is an explicit example of a SSJ2 being drawn without lightning in their aura, when in a powered-up state, and there's no way for you to disprove that Gohan was a SSJ2 when attacking Buu's ball.

Why would Gohan jump up to SS2 instantly, power down immediately after firing (so fast not a stray lightning bolt appears at all), and then not power up again when he senses Buu's massive ki?

SSJ 2 Goku vs. Yakon. Although he didn't make a ki blast, it's almost the same. kinda.. well maybe not.. IDK

[Savage68]

Why would Gohan jump up to SS2 instantly, power down immediately after firing (so fast not a stray lightning bolt appears at all), and then not power up again when he senses Buu's massive ki?

It's almost as if he was already a Super Saiyan 2 and stayed that way, because the story would be unnecessarily nonsensical otherwise. Or if that isn't your cup o' tea, Gohan using his maximum power in a projectile attack drained the majority of what was restored by the Senzu. And again, your belief that a SSJ2 requires lighting in their aura at all times was proven false before this argument was even thought up and again afterward, so it's best off being scrapped.

Because it ties into "Supreme Kai doesn't know shit". He's scared of Pocus after seeing SS2 Gohan, after all.

That's why it's a meaningless citation, and how we know for a fact that it's wrong. Because it's contradicted. "You never got to see how powerful [ ] really is!" is not, and is logically a valid citation. If a statement with foundation goes on without ever being contradicted, it's absolutely a stone cold fact.

[Zephyr]

the story would be unnecessarily nonsensical otherwise.

Welcome to Dragonball.

[Rocketman]

And again, your belief that a SSJ2 requires lighting in their aura at all times was proven false before this argument was even thought up and again afterward, so it's best off being scrapped.

At all times, no. At all, yes. Gohan never has lightning again after being drained at the Tournament, even when Vegeta or Goku have it while just standing around.

Declaring he is an SS2 despite that is as silly as the invisible Kaioken.

[Savage68]

The point is, there's evidence that's more or less indisputable in favor of both sides. Hence why we've seen posters saying that this argument will never end and why every debate we've ever had about it has reached the conclusion that it simply comes down to whether you value storyline consistency or art consistency more.

the story would be unnecessarily nonsensical otherwise.

Welcome to Dragonball.

The purpose of appending "unnecessarily" to that sentence was to dissuade responses like the one you just made.

[astrallite]

I always thought Gohan was just a peg below SSJ2 after the tournament because he was too far drained, but he could still "keep juicing" above SSJ-base, kind of like how Goku was able to blow up Yakon with some clenching. I mean if he was able to hit 1.5x or 1.75x SSJ or whereabouts, that could explain why he's roughly on par with Dabura (allegedly Cell level).

I always felt like SSJ2 was just an absolute line of power, if you surpass it, you will have an electric aura as a Super Saiyan, as all further iterations have the electric aura. You can be a pace or two below it and not have the lightning. It seemed to me this was a critical distinction made between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell (since obviously he still looked exactly the same).

So Gohan's hair (and likewise, Vegeta's) when below SSJ2 but above base all start gaining more definition.

[Kaboom]

I always felt like SSJ2 was just an absolute line of power, if you surpass it, you will have an electric aura as a Super Saiyan, as all further iterations have the electric aura.

Super Saiyan Gotenks is arguably at or above Super Saiyan 2 level power, and Super Vegetto is definitely way above it, and they both only have regular Super Saiyan auras. If it was merely a matter of have-power or not-have-power, then Vegetto's aura would be nothing BUT lightning bolts, to the point where you can't even see him. Hell, his entire aura would just BE a single big lightning bolt.

The auras' design is dependent upon the stage being used. A Super Saiyan aura characteristically has no lightning bolts. A Super Saiyan 2 aura characteristically does have lightning bolts. Gohan never had lightning bolts in his Super Saiyan aura after the one stint at the tournament. Thus he was never a Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament. The continued appropriate appearance of said lightning bolts in other Super Saiyan 2 characters other than Gohan ensures that it's not merely an oversight or change of the trend on Toriyama's behalf.

This is easily observable in the original manga, and the conclusion is a simple matter of common sense. I am sincerely puzzled as to why or how it is still being argued against.

[Fox666]

If it was merely a matter of have-power or not-have-power, then Vegetto's aura would be nothing BUT lightning bolts, to the point where you can't even see him. Hell, his entire aura would just BE a single big lightning bolt.

It does. Right after Vegetto transforms, he has lightning bolts.

Also, Cell after resurrection has it too.

Somehow Toriyama had in mind it's a matter of power. But probably he did not take it that serious.

[Kaboom]

It does. Right after Vegetto transforms, he has lightning bolts.

For one frame, as he's transforming, to emphasize his power. They vanish after that, and he's got a normal Super Saiyan aura because he's only using Super Saiyan 1.

Sustained lightning bolts are characteristic of Super Saiyan 2. I didn't think I'd need to say that.

Also, Cell after resurrection has it too.

Cell is a special case. He doesn't transform the way real Saiyans do. But even that doesn't necessarily have to do with his raw power, as much as it could be him becoming "more perfect."

Somehow Toriyama had in mind it's a matter of power. But probably he did not take it that serious.

If he didn't mean for it to be a tell-tale sign of the transformations, then he was awfully consistent to the contrary.

[Great Saiyaman I]

Or, on the other hand, he was inconsistent. It could go either way, couldn't it?