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[p123]

Yea transformation length is more about plot device than anything. Realistically, fighters can transform within one panel if they want to basically anytime they want.

Although Goku does say he hasn't had to much practice with SSJ3 when he transformed against Fat Buu, which could suggest it wasn't merely plot device. Either way, Goku's SSJ3 against Fat Buu was a mere 3 panels I believe, it's just about the anime influencing people into thinking these transformations are taking so long. USSJ Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell took like 20 episodes but in the manga it was like 2 or 3 panels as well.

[Savage68]

He shows Gohan SS3 on the Supreme Kai's World between the two, so he got more practice changing.

Why, then, couldn't Gohan's Budokai transformation have eased the process for him? Even if we're to assume that a certain amount of time is necessary for Gohan to access a Super Saiyan state that he practically boasts about, he had ample time before his match with Dabura, when he's pumped and actually expresses an eagerness to begin fighting, and after that, when he's already in his Super Saiyan state, and shooting the breeze in front of Buu's ball. He has enough idle time to power-up in a last ditch effort to prevent the universe from asploding, but falls short of having that liiittle extra that he had earlier the same day? This is what I was trying to go over earlier; it's easier to just call Gohan a moron than to introduce self-contradicting calculations into the story.

The only problem is that is has been shown to work already. Go look at Goku directing Gohan to become a SSJ in the Rosat. Goku tells Gohan to get angry and to think of Freeza. This heavily suggested that a delayed rage catalyst, can be used to trigger the transformation into SSJ. So if it can work for SSJ, it's not all that crazy to think it could work for SSJ2.

You do realize that Goku's plan didn't work and that Gohan turned SSJ through normal training, right? And while it isn't "crazy" to believe leftover rage catalysts could work for SSJ2, the story itself contradicts the notion with gusto, because Gohan's rage only enabled the normal Super Saiyan form. There is NO WAY for anyone to substantiate a significantly lesser (and most likely nonexistent) amount of anger yielding greater results. What made Gohan's SSJ2 transformation special and unique was that his latent power and rage had been fully realized, and that he didn't have to rely on temporary power-ups from his mantrums anymore.

[dbgtFO]

The only problem is that is has been shown to work already. Go look at Goku directing Gohan to become a SSJ in the Rosat. Goku tells Gohan to get angry and to think of Freeza. This heavily suggested that a delayed rage catalyst, can be used to trigger the transformation into SSJ. So if it can work for SSJ, it's not all that crazy to think it could work for SSJ2.

You do realize that Goku's plan didn't work and that Gohan turned SSJ through normal training, right?

Just wanted to correct you here. That was in the anime. He turned SSJ because of that rage thing in the manga.

[Savage68]

I dunno about the anime, but in the manga, Goku initially instructs Gohan into using anger to turn into a Super Saiyan, but utterly fails. The next time we see the two, Gohan's shown (as a SSJ) with what looks like a standard *gruugghhh* face and is fighting with himself to maintain his power. If Gohan had broken his normal form's walls by way of anger, I would think the scene wouldn't have been skipped over, and that his Growing Up guide's entry would've mentioned it, like it did with Goku's SSJ form or Gohan's SSJ2 form. I'm pretty sure you have it backwards in that it's the anime showcasing Gohan ascending through anger, not the manga.


EDIT: After looking through the manga and the Growing Up guide, it looks like Gohan probably did turn SSJ by focusing his anger, after all.

[dbgtFO]

I dunno about the anime, but in the manga, Goku initially instructs Gohan into using anger to turn into a Super Saiyan, but utterly fails. The next time we see the two, Gohan's shown (as a SSJ) with what looks like a standard *gruugghhh* face and is fighting with himself to maintain his power. If Gohan had broken his normal form's walls by way of anger, I would think the scene wouldn't have been skipped over, and that his Growing Up guide's entry would've mentioned it, like it did with Goku's SSJ form or Gohan's SSJ2 form. I'm pretty sure you have it backwards in that it's the anime showcasing Gohan ascending through anger, not the manga.

Hmm..
In chapter 378 Goku tells Gohan to use anger, so he can become Super Saiyan. Gohan has trouble getting angry enough and Goku then tells him, that it would take some time, before he achieves it.

In chapter 382(where Cell reaches his Perfect form) Gohan is still doing the same stuff he did in ch. 378, but this time he actually succeeds.
From all this, I honestly can't see, why it isn't by using anger in that one example, that he's able to become Super Saiyan, since that was what Goku guided him to do in the first place.
It wasn't normal training, like the anime showed us(here Gohan turned SSJ during a ki blast struggle).
EDIT: Oh you edited it, well that's what I get for being so slow

[Savage68]

You posted that just as I edited my post.

[p123]

The point is, it is implied to be able to work. Well at least Goku thinks a delayed rage catalyst is possible. IMO Goku > DaSavage on that matter.


Gohan is a SSJ , Dabura is around his level of power. Use whatever logic you want to make it make sense for yourself, but those are undeniable facts.

[dbgtFO]

Gohan is a SSJ , Dabura is around his level of power. Use whatever logic you want to make it make sense for yourself, but those are undeniable facts.

Off panel he is SSJ 2, so we don't necessarily have to contradict the Daizenshuu.

[p123]

Haha, sure whatever works for you...

[Savage68]

Gohan is a SSJ , Dabura is around his level of power. Use whatever logic you want to make it make sense for yourself, but those are undeniable facts.

I could say the same to you, or anyone else. I'm denying them, therefore, they aren't undeniable. If you don't have anything productive to contribute, you shouldn't bother posting.

[Kaboom]

Gohan is a SSJ , Dabura is around his level of power. Use whatever logic you want to make it make sense for yourself, but those are undeniable facts.

Bless you, my child.

[p123]

All I said is to work from there.


Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan


Make up your own POV to coincide with that. You are nitpicking little things and twisting logic in order to make up for poor writing. It's just not true. We should be talking about why Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 against Dabura, instead of why possibly could be.

[Savage68]

Ironically, that's exactly what I've been doing. I haven't said once that Gohan wasn't a normal Super Saiyan against Dabura or Buu. Only disproving some of the more ridiculous reasons for why he wasn't.

[p123]

So then what the hell are we debating? Lol, if you think Dabura ~ SSJ Teen Gohan, then I agree with you. Are we debating why Gohan was a SSJ2 against Kibito? If you do not agree with the delayed rage catalyst theory what is your opinon on that?

[Fox666]

I could say the same to you, or anyone else. I'm denying them, therefore, they aren't undeniable. If you don't have anything productive to contribute, you shouldn't bother posting.

That's p123 for you. He is always like that, don't worry.

[p123]

Ok so I can say that Vegeta was actually a SSJ2 against Kid Buu the entire time. That would be flat out stupid no offense. Why waste each other's time. Vegeta used Base/SSJ/SSJ2 against Kid Buu, no one is denying that, so why would it be any different here? Because of Goku's vague comment that is easily explained. THat's hogwash!

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Which Goku comment? Dabra's comparison to Cell? Or the "he's a lot stronger (Tougher in the English version) than I thought" comment from Goku?

[p123]

Yes of course. Both Goku's comments, and people thinking that hey we saw Gohan go SSJ2, he can do it all the time even though he never you know trained the transformation to a point of transforming of free will. But hey he used it he can use it again, even though its never suggested I will correct AT on his art, even though he has shown to be a very consistent author on that issue eff it I will make up my own logic!

[Kodoshin]

If I remember correctly, Gohan did display SSJ2 for Kibit at the tournament under his own power. Or am I losing my mind? I really should read the series again sometime soon.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yes, that happened.