What mix of dub versions will you introduce new fans to?

[Eddie]

I was sitting here trying to think of how to respond to some of this stuff when a few things occurred to me. Roidrage is under the impression that I was watching subbed episodes as a kid. That isn't the case at all. First of all, I didn't get into Dragon Ball as a young child. I got iinto it at 12, and I had no access to the original version for years. I got to thinking about the first time I saw any Dragon Ball material subbed.
It was early on in my fandom. I purchased the Ocean dub tape of movie 1. I was listening to the opening, really enjoying it. I wondered what the lyrics were, so I said to myself, "Hmm, wonder what would happen if I press the closed caption button" I tried it, and it worked. Subtitles for the Japanese music came up. That was my first exposure to any sort of anime sub.
What does that memory have to do with anything? It reminded me of that magical button that introduced me to octopus clouds and apple colored monsters. It reminded me of closed captioning. Closed captioning! Many deaf people, including children, rely on it to watch television. Children, my friend, have proven that they are capable of reading the bottom of the screen while watching television. While some may think that only "3 out of all the children in the world" are capable of handling subs, clearly that is incorrect.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: kroni_hunter

A bit off topic, and I suppose it's quibbling, but there was no "Ocean portion before FUNimation took over." FUNimation was always in charge, ever since the DB dub of 1995. Now, maybe I'm mistaking you, and you're using that as shorthand for "the period before FUNimation brought voice work in-house and was outsourcing the voice work to Canada," in which case I apologize, but there are a lot of people who seem to mistakenly believe those first 53 episodes are literally pre-FUNimation involvement (and a lot of people do refer to it simply as the "Ocean dub," further causing confusion), so I do like to clarify that point as often as I can to avoid that misinformation spreading further.

RE: Eddie

Yeah, I'm not hearing impaired, but ever since I was a kid and my family got a TV capable of displaying closed captions, I've always used it, sometimes to other people's annoyance, but, hell, I like having the damn words on the screen! It ensures I never miss a line of dialogue, particularly if other people in the room feel compelled to be rude and talk over the TV. And even beyond that, sometimes you just miss a word, or can't understand the actor, so it's a good safety net. But that habit certainly made the jump to subtitles a no-brainer. I guess I've just always been a reader.

[CODii]

Thanks for clarifying Gaffer, because I know I am often guilty of making that mistake. It's always good to be reminded of such things.

[roidrage]

Unless he has statistics to prove that, I'm disinclined to believe it. I never disagreed with your method of introduction, only your (or rather Adamant's) claim that most children would want to watch subtitled content.

Given that children here have no problem with it, the alternative is either that children in this country are genetically superior to children in your country, or that children in your country wouldn't have had any problem with it either, had they just been exposed to it.

Or maybe us kids over here are raised differently? Norway and the USA are not the same country. Different economies, different customs, different governments, etc. There's no reason for something so prevalent in one to be just as prevalent in the other. You must know Americans inside and out to know for a fact that our children would like subtitled material as much as Norwegian children. Granted, I don't know for sure whether or not they would dislike it, and CODii has mentioned enjoying it, but I've grown up in American pop culture, so I have things I can point to. Not only that, CODii seems to have been born a decade earlier than me, and in that time I believe the average American child has changed a great deal. You have nothing other than, "That's the way we do it over here, so it must be universal". So it seems to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

It reminded me of closed captioning. Closed captioning! Many deaf people, including children, rely on it to watch television. Children, my friend, have proven that they are capable of reading the bottom of the screen while watching television. While some may think that only "3 out of all the children in the world" are capable of handling subs, clearly that is incorrect.

Deaf people rely on closed captions because they have to. They can't hear. It's also a lot easier to read when you're not distracted by any noise. I can watch subtitled anime, of course, but my friend, who also likes Dragon Ball, won't, because he doesn't like multitasking. Plus, closed captions aren't always accurate, though that's different from subtitles. Gaffer Tape, maybe you like to read closed captions, but I can't stand them.

[Adamant]

Or maybe us kids over here are raised differently?

Yyyyeah, that's... kinda what I've been saying. You'd have been perfectly capable of handling subtitles had you not been raised in such as way as to give way to such attention problems that you're unable to cope with them. That's a negative. What people have been suggesting here is to introduce kids to subtitles early and let them become used to them, instead of having them grow up into the kind of subtitle-shunning person you apparently became.
I mean, you seriously can't argue that being incapable of watching something with subtitles is not a deficit?

[TripleRach]

Or maybe us kids over here are raised differently? Norway and the USA are not the same country. Different economies, different customs, different governments, etc. There's no reason for something so prevalent in one to be just as prevalent in the other. You must know Americans inside and out to know for a fact that our children would like subtitled material as much as Norwegian children. Granted, I don't know for sure whether or not they would dislike it, and CODii has mentioned enjoying it, but I've grown up in American pop culture, so I have things I can point to. Not only that, CODii seems to have been born a decade earlier than me, and in that time I believe the average American child has changed a great deal. You have nothing other than, "That's the way we do it over here, so it must be universal". So it seems to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue. Are you saying that since Norway and the US are different, they'll always be different? I mean, yeah, it's clear that subtitles are not the norm in American pop culture, but that's no reason that a parent can't expose their children to something different at home. Most American kids don't speak Chinese either, but that doesn't stop some kids from speaking it at home with their parents.

[roidrage]

Or maybe us kids over here are raised differently? Norway and the USA are not the same country. Different economies, different customs, different governments, etc. There's no reason for something so prevalent in one to be just as prevalent in the other. You must know Americans inside and out to know for a fact that our children would like subtitled material as much as Norwegian children. Granted, I don't know for sure whether or not they would dislike it, and CODii has mentioned enjoying it, but I've grown up in American pop culture, so I have things I can point to. Not only that, CODii seems to have been born a decade earlier than me, and in that time I believe the average American child has changed a great deal. You have nothing other than, "That's the way we do it over here, so it must be universal". So it seems to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue. Are you saying that since Norway and the US are different, they'll always be different? I mean, yeah, it's clear that subtitles are not the norm in American pop culture, but that's no reason that a parent can't expose their children to something different at home. Most American kids don't speak Chinese either, but that doesn't stop some kids from speaking it at home with their parents.

Those kids in question are likely Chinese-American, so it only makes sense that they would. I still don't get why really young children have to be exposed to subtitles; it's not a necessary skill, for one thing, and it doesn't have to be learned from a young age either. I just can't behind an average American kid of today watching subtitles and enjoying it; it doesn't seem plausible.

Or maybe us kids over here are raised differently?

Yyyyeah, that's... kinda what I've been saying. You'd have been perfectly capable of handling subtitles had you not been raised in such as way as to give way to such attention problems that you're unable to cope with them. That's a negative. What people have been suggesting here is to introduce kids to subtitles early and let them become used to them, instead of having them grow up into the kind of subtitle-shunning person you apparently became.
I mean, you seriously can't argue that being incapable of watching something with subtitles is not a deficit?

It may be a deficit, but I can't imagine that it'd be a deficit that seriously detracts from anything. It's like not knowing how to swim; maybe it's a skill one could use, but it's easy to avoid situations where you need it. People here are capable of handling subtitles; every American purist on this board probably is. I'm one of them. What I don't get is this soreness over young kids not being able to read subtitles.

[CODii]

Or maybe us kids over here are raised differently? Norway and the USA are not the same country. Different economies, different customs, different governments, etc. There's no reason for something so prevalent in one to be just as prevalent in the other. You must know Americans inside and out to know for a fact that our children would like subtitled material as much as Norwegian children. Granted, I don't know for sure whether or not they would dislike it, and CODii has mentioned enjoying it, but I've grown up in American pop culture, so I have things I can point to. Not only that, CODii seems to have been born a decade earlier than me, and in that time I believe the average American child has changed a great deal. You have nothing other than, "That's the way we do it over here, so it must be universal". So it seems to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue. Are you saying that since Norway and the US are different, they'll always be different? I mean, yeah, it's clear that subtitles are not the norm in American pop culture, but that's no reason that a parent can't expose their children to something different at home. Most American kids don't speak Chinese either, but that doesn't stop some kids from speaking it at home with their parents.

I agree completely. The fact that children around the world watch subtitled cartoons, goes to show that American children should be capable of watching subtitled cartoons as well. Since they're capable of reading subtitles, then we don't see any harm in introducing them to the concept early in life. If more children were shown subtitled content at an early age, then we wouldn't have as many people in America like roidrage's friend who seems to dumb and or lazy to handle subtitled content.

[Cacarot]

I love Dragonball as much as any of you but let be real here. It's just a cartoon. We can debate the merits of presenting to a child various presentations of the show from its original inception in Japan to various NA dubs but in the end its just a cartoon. Maybe Akira Toriyama genuinely cares about how kids and people in general see the show but do you think Toei does? They just want to make as much money off it as possible. If they had truly cared they would have had a great deal more involvement in Funimation's presentation of the show. Though Adamant, Eddie and others mean well in saying that kids should watch the original version of Dragonball to enjoy it as it should be (and your right in that regard) most people don't expect to find any sort of educational value from a cartoon. People read books for that. I watched Spongebob for example as a kid to laugh and I watched Dragonball to see action. As long as you were able to showcase the show as nonstop action ,as Toonami did, the show was going to do very well despite the low quality of the dub. The reason Funimation has put together such a fantastic dub this time around is because they knew that the people who would be buying Dragonball merchandise now are people who would be more critical of the work and seek a more faithful adapation. Also, don't say that the kids watching on nicktoons and the cw will be buying the DVDs because most parents wouldn't want their kids to watch Dragonball kai uncut. If you guys are so concerned about making the average American more culturally sensible than have them read a book about Islam to show them that not all muslims are terrorists. Dragonball in my opinion is the best cartoon of all time with a timeless story but that story's purpose has always been to entertain not educate. Expose a child to the show in whatever way you choose but I agree with roidrage in that showing them the dub isn't bad at all as long as they are entertained by it. If they are entertained, then you know Dragonball is still ok.

[roidrage]

then we wouldn't have as many people in America like roidrage's friend who seems to dumb and or lazy to handle subtitled content.

Don't even try that. I knew I shouldn't have brought him up, because I knew you would insult him.

You're telling me that you see a quote by Adamant in there? I see your quote and my response to that quote. Adamant is nowhere to be seen.

Unless you come from some sort of retarded gene pool

Come again?

If that excerpt doesn't mean what it sounds like, perhaps you should clarify so that I don't say something I'll regret.

can't see any reason why you'd be such an abnormality. As has already been stated, kids have no problem enjoying subtitled material in places where this is the norm for foreign entertainment, so I don't see why you're so adamant in your claim that your level of attention would've been so far below the average. All you're doing is insulting yourself.

I live in America, where subtitled isn't the norm for foreign entertainment.

[CODii]

I love Dragonball as much as any of you but let be real here. It's just a cartoon. We can debate the merits of presenting to a child various presentations of the show from its original inception in Japan to various NA dubs but in the end its just a cartoon. Maybe Akira Toriyama genuinely cares about how kids and people in general see the show but do you think Toei does? They just want to make as much money off it as possible. If they had truly cared they would have had a great deal more involvement in Funimation's presentation of the show. Though Adamant, Eddie and others mean well in saying that kids should watch the original version of Dragonball to enjoy it as it should be (and your right in that regard) most people don't expect to find any sort of educational value from a cartoon. People read books for that. I watched Spongebob for example as a kid to laugh and I watched Dragonball to see action. As long as you were able to showcase the show as nonstop action ,as Toonami did, the show was going to do very well despite the low quality of the dub. The reason Funimation has put together such a fantastic dub this time around is because they knew that the people who would be buying Dragonball merchandise now are people who would be more critical of the work and seek a more faithful adapation. Also, don't say that the kids watching on nicktoons and the cw will be buying the DVDs because most parents wouldn't want their kids to watch Dragonball kai uncut. If you guys are so concerned about making the average American more culturally sensible than have them read a book about Islam to show them that not all muslims are terrorists. Dragonball in my opinion is the best cartoon of all time with a timeless story but that story's purpose has always been to entertain not educate. Expose a child to the show in whatever way you choose but I agree with roidrage in that showing them the dub isn't bad at all as long as they are entertained by it. If they are entertained, then you know Dragonball is still ok.

First, while it is certainly an improvement over their earlier efforts, Funimation's Kai dub is still a long way from "fantastic."
Second, I don't think anyone is suggesting using DragonBall solely as an educational tool. We're saying that it certainly couldn't hurt a child to see subtitled content. My main qualm is with this absurd notion that American children are somehow so stupid compared to the rest of the world that they are somehow utterly incapable of handling subtitled cartoons.

then we wouldn't have as many people in America like roidrage's friend who seems to dumb and or lazy to handle subtitled content.

Don't even try that. I knew I shouldn't have brought him up, because I knew you would insult him.

Perhaps you shouldn't have. If I was so simple minded that I couldn't handle "multitasking" I wouldn't want people broadcasting that.

You're telling me that you see a quote by Adamant in there? I see your quote and my response to that quote. Adamant is nowhere to be seen.

Unless you come from some sort of retarded gene pool

Come again?

If that excerpt doesn't mean what it sounds like, perhaps you should clarify so that I don't say something I'll regret.

can't see any reason why you'd be such an abnormality. As has already been stated, kids have no problem enjoying subtitled material in places where this is the norm for foreign entertainment, so I don't see why you're so adamant in your claim that your level of attention would've been so far below the average. All you're doing is insulting yourself.

I live in America, where subtitled isn't the norm for foreign entertainment.

That isn't the post we were referring to at all. You told me that it was just my opinion that just because something is "the norm" it doesn't mean it's right. When I responded that that wasn't an opinion, you said you weren't talking to me.

I live in America, where subtitled isn't the norm for foreign entertainment.

Just because it's not the norm, that doesn't mean that's the way it should be.

That's your opinion.

It's not an opinion. I am simply stating that something being "the norm" isn't reason enough for things to be that way. Lots of things that were once "the norm" are no longer that way. I am not saying that something being "the norm" means it is wrong. I am simply stating that it does not mean it is necessarily right. Taking the stance that things should be the way they are, simply because it is "the norm" only breeds ignorance.

I'm not taking that stance. I was responding to Adamant, not you.

See?

Perhaps responding and quoting at the same time is too difficult? It is multitasking after all.

This is the last you will see me on this thread. It has become clear to me that an actual conversation cannot be had with you roidrage.

[roidrage]

then we wouldn't have as many people in America like roidrage's friend who seems to dumb and or lazy to handle subtitled content.

Don't even try that. I knew I shouldn't have brought him up, because I knew you would insult him.

Perhaps you shouldn't have. If I was so simple minded that I couldn't handle "multitasking" I wouldn't want people broadcasting that.
.

I assumed you were mature enough not to insult someone who wasn't here. Apparently, I was mistaken. If you don't get what I'm talking about, fine. If you disagree with me, fine. But when you insult a good friend of mine, you're nothing but an asshole. Nothing. And that's all you'll ever be.

I'm sick of this. Ban me before I lose my temper and break my computer. It's best for everyone.

[Cacarot]

I love Dragonball as much as any of you but let be real here. It's just a cartoon. We can debate the merits of presenting to a child various presentations of the show from its original inception in Japan to various NA dubs but in the end its just a cartoon. Maybe Akira Toriyama genuinely cares about how kids and people in general see the show but do you think Toei does? They just want to make as much money off it as possible. If they had truly cared they would have had a great deal more involvement in Funimation's presentation of the show. Though Adamant, Eddie and others mean well in saying that kids should watch the original version of Dragonball to enjoy it as it should be (and your right in that regard) most people don't expect to find any sort of educational value from a cartoon. People read books for that. I watched Spongebob for example as a kid to laugh and I watched Dragonball to see action. As long as you were able to showcase the show as nonstop action ,as Toonami did, the show was going to do very well despite the low quality of the dub. The reason Funimation has put together such a fantastic dub this time around is because they knew that the people who would be buying Dragonball merchandise now are people who would be more critical of the work and seek a more faithful adapation. Also, don't say that the kids watching on nicktoons and the cw will be buying the DVDs because most parents wouldn't want their kids to watch Dragonball kai uncut. If you guys are so concerned about making the average American more culturally sensible than have them read a book about Islam to show them that not all muslims are terrorists. Dragonball in my opinion is the best cartoon of all time with a timeless story but that story's purpose has always been to entertain not educate. Expose a child to the show in whatever way you choose but I agree with roidrage in that showing them the dub isn't bad at all as long as they are entertained by it. If they are entertained, then you know Dragonball is still ok.

First, while it is certainly an improvement over their earlier efforts, Funimation's Kai dub is still a long way from "fantastic."
Second, I don't think anyone is suggesting using DragonBall solely as an educational tool. We're saying that it certainly couldn't hurt a child to see subtitled content. My main qualm is with this absurd notion that American children are somehow so stupid compared to the rest of the world that they are somehow utterly incapable of handling subtitled cartoons.

then we wouldn't have as many people in America like roidrage's friend who seems to dumb and or lazy to handle subtitled content.

Why isn't it fantastic? One line here and there that deviates from the original or one voice that you think doesn't fit? I honestly feel that a lot of purists like to nitpick on things that really don't detract from the work as a whole and it really looks to a neutral party as trying to find something to criticize as opposed to giving credit where credit is due.

However, I do agree with you in that I see nothing wrong in exposing children to subtitled cartoons. Yet I think almost anyone would tell you that they prefer to watch a cartoon in their native language and if the option is available most children would watch dbz in their native tongue unless the native tongue rendition of the work was so horrendous that it was unwatchable. (An attribute many of you give to the original English dub) Though most Americans probably had no issue watching that original dub despite some of the obvious flaws. However, to support that the original dub is better than Kai in terms of voice acting (I find music to be more opinion based) is blinded by nostalgia. In short though, if you want to expose your child to Dragonball or any cartoon with subtitles that is fine because they are getting the original representation of the show. Yet, I think we can all agree that even Norwegians would prefer to watch Dragonball in Norwegian if it was a viable option.

[TripleRach]

Cut it out with the ridiculous quote pyramids and personal insults.

[Drabaz]

Wow this went downhill fast.

Ok. So, not wanting to read subtitles is a "negative" norm. I get that. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like America is a perfect country. Our kids should be introduced to subtitles at an early age, but they're not. Which is why my initial thought was to show kids the NA dub. Our kids usually don't like subtitles. That's just the way America is. Simple as that. Some countries like eating bugs. That's their norm. America had a fear show where they dared you to eat bugs. Eating bugs is not our norm. We're all capable of eating bugs. We just choose not to if there's a perfectly good burger down the street.

So to answer the threads main question, "what mix of dub versions will you introduce new fans to?" and if they were a child in America (note I'm not saying MY child. Just some random little kid who wants to start watching DB.) I would show them the NA dub. Then when they get older, show them the original Japanese dub. Now if it were my kid, thanks to this discussion, I may introduce him/her to the show with the original Japanese dub. Because I can raise my child to believe that subtitles are a regular thing. But because of American society, my child may still believe that subtitles are a waste of time since there's a dub out there. I'm not going to force him/her to watch a specific dub, or the show for that matter if they don't like it.

On a seperate note, you guys need to ease up on roidrage. Insulting somebody is not a proper way of having a discussion. Especially their friends. It get's you nowhere. The person gets more enraged and sticks to his side of the argument no matter what you say afterwards. I was pretty offended when adamant said something along the lines of my way of thinking is why people from my country are dumb. But I stepped away from the computer, collected my thoughts and realized that even though adamant was being a jerk about it, he had a point.

[CODii]

I know I said I wouldn't be back, but Drabaz made such a good point that I couldn't help but make one last post. That is simply to say that in retrospect it is clear that I got a bit caught up in the moment. For that I apologize. I am normally much kinder around here, yet did not display that in this thread. What I hate about these sorts of discussions is that it can be so easy to become so concerned with winning a discussion that it's easy to forget that in the end we're all just Dragon Ball fans who are here to have fun and share in our passion for Toriyama's work. So in summation to you roidrage (and your dub fan friend) I apologize.

[Cacarot]

Let's all sing head cha la together and call it a day.

[CODii]

Let's all sing head cha la together and call it a day.

Well said man.

[DBZ Mick]

Personally, I'd just introduce them to the original Japanese nowadays, ask me a few years back and it would have just been the FUNI dub.

I think most people my age would find the dub too immature and silly. Me and my sister watched the FUNI dub of the Artifical Human/Cell saga way back in 2001 and enjoyed it, when I got properly into the original Japanese last year, I invited her to watch with me and she preffered it in Japanese (especially when watching Studio Ghibli films).

[roidrage]

I know I said I wouldn't be back, but Drabaz made such a good point that I couldn't help but make one last post. That is simply to say that in retrospect it is clear that I got a bit caught up in the moment. For that I apologize. I am normally much kinder around here, yet did not display that in this thread. What I hate about these sorts of discussions is that it can be so easy to become so concerned with winning a discussion that it's easy to forget that in the end we're all just Dragon Ball fans who are here to have fun and share in our passion for Toriyama's work. So in summation to you roidrage (and your dub fan friend) I apologize.

Aw man, what'd you go and do that for? I can't hold a grudge now! You're forgiven, and sorry for misunderstanding you.