How powerful did Yamcha, Ten, Chaozu, and Krillin get?

[Kaboom]

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.6
Context: after Tenshinhan, Gohan, and Kuririn want to chase after No.20
Piccolo: “I understand…But don’t try and fight him. He’s not an opponent you guys could handle…”

Just noticed this quote.

Throwing it out there for whatever reason.

... Carry on.

[FNF]

How is that stretching it? All they say is humans. It's no stretch to say they might be talking about regular humans.

What does Gotenks have to do with anything here? We didn't see the fight. Gohan also survived a fight against Fat Boo and that doesn't make him stronger than Majin Vegeta. It's certainly not as clear as an actual statement of power levels, either. Nothing needs to back that up because we have an actual figure supported by a Scouter. That's completely different. And no, I DON'T write Gotenks
off as a gag character, so no I'm not picking and choosing.

If #20 can be fooled by Vegeta's bluff, it still shows that he has the capacity to make mistakes. He's not infallible and his statements shouldn't be treated as though they are.

Finally, no, it's ridiculous to think MOUNTAIN TRAINING is so great. Goku and co keep getting stronger by moving onto BETTER training methods, even if the humans are incorporating Kaio's training they still don't have the gravity of his planet and so it'd be ridiculous to say their training is better. Furthermore, it would be downright stupid to say that their mountain training provides vastly superior gains to Vegeta training in 300Gs or Piccolo and Goku's sparring.

Earthlings are humans. Saiyans are humans. C20 says he surpasses HUMAN data. It's just picking and choosing yet again.

You don't follow base Gotenks(post)>SSjin Gotenks(pre) because it's gag orientated am I right? I don't follow it either but I follow out of universe explanations. You, APPARENTLY, write off out of universe explanations as you said earlier. Do you see the problem there? As I said before, it's just picking and choosing what to follow when it suits you.
And c20 HAS a scouter That's the point.

It had nothing to do with his power detection though. It was Vegeta playing mind games ie suggesting he had more power in reserve.

You talk about 'mountain training' as if it's a fact that they gain barely any power on Earth. Give me some proof and then say it again.
I have already provided sufficient proof that it's not the case. Ten apparently gained enough power to keep up with that kind of fight and the others gained enough to fill the gap between c20 and Vegeta.
And btw, it's worth saying that AT actually started picturing the Shinshin-No-Ken as a training move so Ten could have easily used it as a self-sparring technique.

@Kaboom, no-one's saying they can beat the androids...

[Fox666]

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.6
Context: after Tenshinhan, Gohan, and Kuririn want to chase after No.20
Piccolo: “I understand…But don’t try and fight him. He’s not an opponent you guys could handle…”

Just noticed this quote.

Throwing it out there for whatever reason.

... Carry on.

It's a fair advise, otherwise No.20 would penetrate their bodies as if they were made of paper like he did with Yamcha.

[CaptainKatsura]

^Or as if they were made of paper mache... or Raditz.

[Bussani]

Earthlings are humans. Saiyans are humans. C20 says he surpasses HUMAN data. It's just picking and choosing yet again.

I pretty much agree with you, but I think the comment is so vague and open to interpretation that we're also picking and choosing what to believe. I have to admit, when I first read the quote and didn't think too hard about it, I thought they were just saying: "There's a guy over there who's not a normal guy."

[Saiga]

How is that stretching it? All they say is humans. It's no stretch to say they might be talking about regular humans.

What does Gotenks have to do with anything here? We didn't see the fight. Gohan also survived a fight against Fat Boo and that doesn't make him stronger than Majin Vegeta. It's certainly not as clear as an actual statement of power levels, either. Nothing needs to back that up because we have an actual figure supported by a Scouter. That's completely different. And no, I DON'T write Gotenks
off as a gag character, so no I'm not picking and choosing.

If #20 can be fooled by Vegeta's bluff, it still shows that he has the capacity to make mistakes. He's not infallible and his statements shouldn't be treated as though they are.

Finally, no, it's ridiculous to think MOUNTAIN TRAINING is so great. Goku and co keep getting stronger by moving onto BETTER training methods, even if the humans are incorporating Kaio's training they still don't have the gravity of his planet and so it'd be ridiculous to say their training is better. Furthermore, it would be downright stupid to say that their mountain training provides vastly superior gains to Vegeta training in 300Gs or Piccolo and Goku's sparring.

Earthlings are humans. Saiyans are humans. C20 says he surpasses HUMAN data. It's just picking and choosing yet again.

You don't follow base Gotenks(post)>SSjin Gotenks(pre) because it's gag orientated am I right? I don't follow it either but I follow out of universe explanations. You, APPARENTLY, write off out of universe explanations as you said earlier. Do you see the problem there? As I said before, it's just picking and choosing what to follow when it suits you.
And c20 HAS a scouter That's the point.

It had nothing to do with his power detection though. It was Vegeta playing mind games ie suggesting he had more power in reserve.

You talk about 'mountain training' as if it's a fact that they gain barely any power on Earth. Give me some proof and then say it again.
I have already provided sufficient proof that it's not the case. Ten apparently gained enough power to keep up with that kind of fight and the others gained enough to fill the gap between c20 and Vegeta.
And btw, it's worth saying that AT actually started picturing the Shinshin-No-Ken as a training move so Ten could have easily used it as a self-sparring technique.

@Kaboom, no-one's saying they can beat the androids...

It's not picking and choosing. Bussani already explained how it may look to someone who isn't reading into it.

And the reason I don't follow Base Gotenks (post) >> SS Gotenks (pre) isn't because it's a gag. It is part of the reason, but the real reason is that it doesn't make logical sense in-universe. So it's a different situation from believing something that goes against logic for a flimsy out-of-universe reason. It's different in Gero's case to Vegeta because Gero made mistakes. Having a built in scouter clearly doesn't give him flawless judgement.

Doesn't matter, it shows that Gero isn't flawless. The fact that he can make mistakes is simply enough to say not everything out of his mouth has to be treated as indisputable fact.

No, you haven't provided any proof at all. 'Apparently' gained enough power to keep up? That's nothing but pure speculation. If you're going to claim that the humans have pulled eight digit power levels out of their ass the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Let's just agree to disagree since this is just going to go in circles otherwise.

[shonenhikada]

How is that stretching it? All they say is humans. It's no stretch to say they might be talking about regular humans.

What does Gotenks have to do with anything here? We didn't see the fight. Gohan also survived a fight against Fat Boo and that doesn't make him stronger than Majin Vegeta. It's certainly not as clear as an actual statement of power levels, either. Nothing needs to back that up because we have an actual figure supported by a Scouter. That's completely different. And no, I DON'T write Gotenks
off as a gag character, so no I'm not picking and choosing.

If #20 can be fooled by Vegeta's bluff, it still shows that he has the capacity to make mistakes. He's not infallible and his statements shouldn't be treated as though they are.

Finally, no, it's ridiculous to think MOUNTAIN TRAINING is so great. Goku and co keep getting stronger by moving onto BETTER training methods, even if the humans are incorporating Kaio's training they still don't have the gravity of his planet and so it'd be ridiculous to say their training is better. Furthermore, it would be downright stupid to say that their mountain training provides vastly superior gains to Vegeta training in 300Gs or Piccolo and Goku's sparring.

Earthlings are humans. Saiyans are humans. C20 says he surpasses HUMAN data. It's just picking and choosing yet again.

You don't follow base Gotenks(post)>SSjin Gotenks(pre) because it's gag orientated am I right? I don't follow it either but I follow out of universe explanations. You, APPARENTLY, write off out of universe explanations as you said earlier. Do you see the problem there? As I said before, it's just picking and choosing what to follow when it suits you.
And c20 HAS a scouter That's the point.

It had nothing to do with his power detection though. It was Vegeta playing mind games ie suggesting he had more power in reserve.

You talk about 'mountain training' as if it's a fact that they gain barely any power on Earth. Give me some proof and then say it again.
I have already provided sufficient proof that it's not the case. Ten apparently gained enough power to keep up with that kind of fight and the others gained enough to fill the gap between c20 and Vegeta.
And btw, it's worth saying that AT actually started picturing the Shinshin-No-Ken as a training move so Ten could have easily used it as a self-sparring technique.

@Kaboom, no-one's saying they can beat the androids...

It's not picking and choosing. Bussani already explained how it may look to someone who isn't reading into it.

And the reason I don't follow Base Gotenks (post) >> SS Gotenks (pre) isn't because it's a gag. It is part of the reason, but the real reason is that it doesn't make logical sense in-universe. So it's a different situation from believing something that goes against logic for a flimsy out-of-universe reason. It's different in Gero's case to Vegeta because Gero made mistakes. Having a built in scouter clearly doesn't give him flawless judgement.

Doesn't matter, it shows that Gero isn't flawless. The fact that he can make mistakes is simply enough to say not everything out of his mouth has to be treated as indisputable fact.

No, you haven't provided any proof at all. 'Apparently' gained enough power to keep up? That's nothing but pure speculation. If you're going to claim that the humans have pulled eight digit power levels out of their ass the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Let's just agree to disagree since this is just going to go in circles otherwise.

What if it was 9 digit power levels out of their ass, would you believe it then ?

[FNF]

It's not picking and choosing. Bussani already explained how it may look to someone who isn't reading into it.

And the reason I don't follow Base Gotenks (post) >> SS Gotenks (pre) isn't because it's a gag. It is part of the reason, but the real reason is that it doesn't make logical sense in-universe. So it's a different situation from believing something that goes against logic for a flimsy out-of-universe reason. It's different in Gero's case to Vegeta because Gero made mistakes. Having a built in scouter clearly doesn't give him flawless judgement.

Doesn't matter, it shows that Gero isn't flawless. The fact that he can make mistakes is simply enough to say not everything out of his mouth has to be treated as indisputable fact.

No, you haven't provided any proof at all. 'Apparently' gained enough power to keep up? That's nothing but pure speculation. If you're going to claim that the humans have pulled eight digit power levels out of their ass the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Let's just agree to disagree since this is just going to go in circles otherwise.

And Bussani agreed with me...To a Japanese reader, I would heavily doubt there would be any confusion. Herms has made it rather obvious what is meant. If it was supposed to be interpreted as 'not normal' then c20 would have surely went 'surpasses Earthling data' or 'normal data' wouldn't he? It's not like any 'normal' human on Earth is anything but an Earthling or have anything like a 100 power level...

Since when can the reader decide 'it doesn't make logical sense in-universe'? That's just ridiculous.
How about 'it doesn't make much logical sense' for Goku to go from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in a near-death power up? Or Gohan to go from below Fat Boo to above Evil Boo while sitting on his ass?
Anyone can say that kind of crap to explain why they don't follow something despite it being stated... The only way to deny base Gotenks(post)>SSjin Gotenks(pre) is to say it's gag-worthy (ie out of universe).
How is it a flimsy out-of-universe explanation? He said pls limited his ability to make creative fights (I can't cite the source but I think I read it on MFG). It's like saying if AT said Gohan>Goku in an interview today, it doesn't matter. Out of universe explanations>In universe all day.
So was Vegeta not wrong when he said Nappa could beat Goku despite Goku being two times stronger(8,000 vs 4,000) 'apparently'? And keep in mind that before he could sense Ki, he was all about power levels (ie higher power level wins) (“It was simple once I got the gist of it. But it’s no use if you’re focused just on power, like you guys or Freeza…I was like that too until recently…”).
If everyone were to write off someone's opinion just because they were wrong once, then there is no statement from any character in the whole manga that you can follow.

Neither is Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo etc etc. Does nothing they say matter now?

Ten makes it extremely clear that he could keep up with a high caliber fight. Please tell me how that is speculation? Is it also speculation that the earthlings can donate A LOT of power towards c20 despite it being stated twice?
I would say the burden of proof is most certainly on you considering I have provided tangible proof lol.

I don't agree to disagree with anyone who says SSjin3 Goku>Mightiest Warrior Gohan. This is no different. Putting the Earthings below 1,000,000 ,never mind 100,000, is completely unfounded.

[Fox666]

Putting the Earthings below 1,000,000 ,never mind 100,000, is completely unfounded.

Putting them above it is unfounded too.

[Kaboom]

In power and battle terms, the Earthlings were useless during the Androids/Cell arc. Even Tenshinhan's big effort with the Shin Kikoho didn't hurt Cell in the slightest and equated to a big "so what" in the end. Their power is meaningless whether you put them in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions. So let's not act all snooty like any of the above options is "unacceptable," okay?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think that Kuririn, Tenshinhan & Yamcha have surpassed Tullece (who was over 300,000) by the Artificial Humans Arc, but are still under the 1.000.000, with Chaozu being around 7.000? As for who is stronger than who, I think that Kuririn > Tenshinhan > Yamcha >>> Chaozu, with Kuririn on the top because of Saichouro's power up.

[shonenhikada]

Putting the Earthings below 1,000,000 ,never mind 100,000, is completely unfounded.

Putting them above it is unfounded too.

I disagree on this. Their power level should be high enough for them to not get one hit K.O. by cell jr and survive for a little while. Think King Vegeta getting train wrecked by Freeza, with an uppercut for comparison sakes.

[Rocketman]

The Cell jrs are equal to (U?/M?)SS Vegeta.

The humans could be 200,000,000 and still be one-shotted by the Cell Jrs.

[FNF]

Putting the Earthings below 1,000,000 ,never mind 100,000, is completely unfounded.

Putting them above it is unfounded too.

For the reasons I listed, it's not.

@Kaboom, it obviously inflicted some pain on Cell considering it knocked the wind out of him.
I don't see how their powers are meaningless around the 60,000,000 mark. As a group they could get surprise attacks in. Yamcha even seems to suggest there were certain degrees of usefulness in the group and Ten suggests he could be of some use so the 'they were all useless no matter how strong they were' card doesn't seem to apply at all.

And I'm just replying like that because it seems like the only reason which is being thrown around to explain why they aren't that strong is 'they can't be that strong because they can't.' There is no actual explanation as to why not.

@Rocket, no one's saying they were of any use in the Cell games. They had no other option but to turn up.

[shonenhikada]

The Cell jrs are equal to (U?/M?)SS Vegeta.

The humans could be 200,000,000 and still be one-shotted by the Cell Jrs.

What I meant to say is not die from one instant hit from the cell jr, the humans would have had to be at least in the millions.

[Son_Gohan]

What I meant to say is not die from one instant hit from the cell jr, the humans would have had to be at least in the millions.

Not necessarily, the Cell Jrs. seemed to be content with just toying with them.

[shonenhikada]

What I meant to say is not die from one instant hit from the cell jr, the humans would have had to be at least in the millions.

Not necessarily, the Cell Jrs. seemed to be content with just toying with them.

There is only so much someone can hold back. Freeza wasn't even using 1% of his power when he playfully killed Vegeta's father, then factor in the time between when Cell said to finish them off, and the time gohan transforms. If the humans were weak as paper sauce, one punch through the stomach would have killed them.

[Fox666]

Putting the Earthings below 1,000,000 ,never mind 100,000, is completely unfounded.

Putting them above it is unfounded too.

For the reasons I listed, it's not.

It doesn't matter, their battle powers have never been given in any official source, and there have never been any trustworth information about their strength in comparison to other character, expect that they are useless against the likes of Androids or Cell.

There is only so much someone can hold back. Freeza wasn't even using 1% of his power when he playfully killed Vegeta's father, then factor in the time between when Cell said to finish them off, and the time gohan transforms. If the humans were weak as paper sauce, one punch through the stomach would have killed them.

The series is widely inconsistent in that point. Trunks survived a punch from Evil Boo in the face in his regular form, while Gohan could torn the Cell Jr. apart with a similar attack.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What I meant to say is not die from one instant hit from the cell jr, the humans would have had to be at least in the millions.

Not necessarily, the Cell Jrs. seemed to be content with just toying with them.

There is only so much someone can hold back. Freeza wasn't even using 1% of his power when he playfully killed Vegeta's father, then factor in the time between when Cell said to finish them off, and the time gohan transforms. If the humans were weak as paper sauce, one punch through the stomach would have killed them.

Freeza couldn't suppress his battle power like the Z-Senshi, Cell and the Cell Jrs could, who could suppress it to zero. The Cell Jrs should be able to hold back their power to the Earthling's level.

[Son_Gohan]

There is only so much someone can hold back. Freeza wasn't even using 1% of his power when he playfully killed Vegeta's father, then factor in the time between when Cell said to finish them off, and the time gohan transforms. If the humans were weak as paper sauce, one punch through the stomach would have killed them.

If Mr. Satan was of any indication, then clearly not every strike they throw is going to kill someone that much weaker than them.

Having watched that scene in the anime recently, I can recall Freeza's facial expression when he killed King Vegeta, and it wasn't very suggestive of him holding much back.