If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

[Fox666]

Both sides have.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Both sides have.

What argument is there? All I here is a strong feeling sort of thing no real evidence that suggest base Vegeta is weaker than Kaioshin.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaioshin was impressed with Base Vegeta's power and how easily he defeated Pui-Pui, but Bobbidi and Dabra seem to be just as impressed:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P14.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”
Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”

An explanation that goes well here, for me at least, is that Kaioshin was unaware how of Vegeta's capabilities. He had yet to see him put forth any power, and Vegeta was suppressed right before the battle started. We already know Kaioshin had Majinphobia, so he either overestimated Pui-Pui, underestimated Vegeta, or was simply uneasy because he didn't want Vegeta giving unnecessary energy to Majin Boo. I believe all of them are very likely. Kaioshin just seems like the type

Then, of course, you have Kaioshin expressing his appreciation on the others joining him, since he wasn't sure he'd be able to stop Bobbidi and his minions alone. This was before he was aware of Dabra or Yakon being under Bobbidi's control. Does his lack of surprise when seeing Pui-Pui imply he was well aware he (Pui-Pui) was already under Bobbidi's control? Maybe. Kaioshin obviously didn't need any help handling Spopo and Yamu, as stated, so most would assume Kaioshin wasn't looking forward to fighting Bobbidi, Pui-Pui, the special Stage Two warrior that was never shown. You have Kaioshin looking shocked after seeing Vegeta's thrashing of Pui-Pui; I always thought this was interesting. Is he shocked because Vegeta is as strong as he is? Because Vegeta's stronger than himself? Or because the Majin menace was reduced to bits as easily as he was? I dunno about anyone else, but I think they're all plausible.

Honestly, it comes down to your interpretation. The Boo saga is filled with things that can make you change your opinion on the whim. I know I've done that quite a few times.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Kaioshin was impressed with Base Vegeta's power and how easily he defeated Pui-Pui, but Bobbidi and Dabra seem to be just as impressed:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P14.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”
Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”

An explanation that goes well here, for me at least, is that Kaioshin was unaware how of Vegeta's capabilities. He had yet to see him put forth any power, and Vegeta was suppressed right before the battle started. We already know Kaioshin had Majinphobia, so he either overestimated Pui-Pui, underestimated Vegeta, or was simply uneasy because he didn't want Vegeta giving unnecessary energy to Majin Boo. I believe all of them are very likely. Kaioshin just seems like the type

Then, of course, you have Kaioshin expressing his appreciation on the others joining him, since he wasn't sure he'd be able to stop Bobbidi and his minions alone. This was before he was aware of Dabra or Yakon being under Bobbidi's control. Does his lack of surprise when seeing Pui-Pui imply he was well aware he (Pui-Pui) was already under Bobbidi's control? Maybe. Kaioshin obviously didn't need any help handling Spopo and Yamu, as stated, so most would assume Kaioshin wasn't looking forward to fighting Bobbidi, Pui-Pui, the special Stage Two warrior that was never shown. You have Kaioshin looking shocked after seeing Vegeta's thrashing of Pui-Pui; I always thought this was interesting. Is he shocked because Vegeta is as strong as he is? Because Vegeta's stronger than himself? Or because the Majin menace was reduced to bits as easily as he was? I dunno about anyone else, but I think they're all plausible.

Honestly, it comes down to your interpretation. The Boo saga is filled with things that can make you change your opinion on the whim. I know I've done that quite a few times.

I dont really see any evidence against my claim here. However I can see how someone would come to the conclusion that base Vegeta is weaker than Kaioshin with there interpretation but it seems Vegeta being stronger is more evident. However yes obviously he massively overestimated Pui Pui. The dude thinks 10Gs is impressive XD.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not trying to dispute anything, honestly. I was trying to present different sides to the argument. If you think Vegeta is above Kaioshin, that's fine. I just don't see anything clear on either viewpoint. Kaioshin is a wuss, but his powers alone would make quick work of Base Vegeta if we're going by feats alone. How is Vegeta's superiority more evident?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Not trying to dispute anything, honestly. I was trying to present different sides to the argument. If you think Vegeta is above Kaioshin, that's fine. I just don't see anything clear on either viewpoint. Kaioshin is a wuss, but his powers alone would make quick work of Base Vegeta if we're going by feats alone. How is Vegeta's superiority more evident?

The fact that he treats Kaioshin like a joke and the fact that Kaioshin is impressed by Vegetas lack of power shown. He also seems fairly confident in his ability to take on android 18 and Piccolo in his base form.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

During his battle with Goku, Vegeta actually claims Kaioshin wasn't impressive compared to them. Aside from that, when does he treat him like a joke? He seemed to treat Gohan like a joke, if anything. Vegeta's also fairly confident he could beat everyone in the tournament. I don't think that really counts for much. Possibly being stronger than #18 and Piccolo doesn't say anything about Kaioshin, who could very easily be way stronger than both of them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

During his battle with Goku, Vegeta actually claims Kaioshin wasn't impressive compared to them. Aside from that, when does he treat him like a joke? He seemed to treat Gohan like a joke, if anything. Vegeta's also fairly confident he could beat everyone in the tournament. I don't think that really counts for much. Possibly being stronger than #18 and Piccolo doesn't say anything about Kaioshin, who could very easily be way stronger than both of them.

I dont think Piccolo is that much weaker than Kaioshin heck he might not even be weaker at all he could have just quit out of respect. Nah Vegeta is constantly treating him like a Joke. He is very unimpressed.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, but you're not showing when he's doing this. It's easy to just say he's constantly treating him like a joke

Being unimpressed just means he's on a different level than Kaioshin. Vegeta's very unimpressed with Dabra, too, but it doesn't mean he can beat him in Base.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah, but you're not showing when he's doing this. It's easy to just say he's constantly treating him like a joke

Being unimpressed just means he's on a different level than Kaioshin. Vegeta's very unimpressed with Dabra, too, but it doesn't mean he can beat him in Base.

Actually says something along the lines of this: "Yes he is tough but he isnt so tough we cant beat him shit this is really pissing me off!" He acknowledges that Dabura is tough he doesnt so much as think the same thing about Kaioshin.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Actually, he doesn't believe Dabra is anything special early on:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”

And later:

Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Thinks Dabra isn't an opponent that's unbeatable for them, but thinks Gohan (who was about equal to Dabra) is pathetic. Yeah...I'd say he doesn't think very highly of him.

Vegeta was unimpressed with Kaioshin, but based on what he said earlier, it's very likely he never got a good feel for his power:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Kaioshin did no fighting from that point or Bobbidi's ship. Vegeta wouldn't even know how strong he was. Oh, and this is basically when Kaioshin admits he's out of his league with the Saiyans:

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

So yeah, he was impressed with Base Vegeta, but seemed to be even more impressed with their Super Saiyan ability.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Actually, he doesn't believe Dabra is anything special early on:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”

And later:

Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Thinks Dabra isn't an opponent that's unbeatable for them, but thinks Gohan (who was about equal to Dabra) is pathetic. Yeah...I'd say he doesn't think very highly of him.

Vegeta was unimpressed with Kaioshin, but based on what he said earlier, it's very likely he never got a good feel for his power:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Kaioshin did no fighting from that point or Bobbidi's ship. Vegeta wouldn't even know how strong he was. Oh, and this is basically when Kaioshin admits he's out of his league with the Saiyans:

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

So yeah, he was impressed with Base Vegeta, but seemed to be even more impressed with their Super Saiyan ability.

True but it would still seem Base Vegeta is still stronger in base. Another good point would be Goku vs Yakon. Goku in base seems capable of beating Yakon and Kaioshin is seemingly afraid of him and he knows who Yakon is. Vegeta isnt that much weaker than Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Good point. Kaioshin really was afraid of Yakon.

[Fox666]

Both sides have.

What argument is there? All I here is a strong feeling sort of thing no real evidence that suggest base Vegeta is weaker than Kaioshin.

I don't want to offend you, but it seems hard for you to accept anything except your own point of view.

The fact is that it was never directly said that the Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin in their regular form. Except for Babidi and Darbra saying they could revive Majin Boo by using the energy of the three Saiyans, which should be jibberish considering Gohan filled less than half of it as a Super Saiyan 2, and Babidi or Darbra were not aware that they could transform.

Kaioshin was apprehensivene of Kaioshin subordinates, but it was hinted that, with exception of Vegeta, their Ki can't be detected, and not to mention that Yakon has special powers. And Kaioshin wasn't necessarily surprised of the Saiyans being stronger than him in their regular form, but that they are much stronger than he tought.

It is only when Goku transforms in Super Saiyan 2 that Kaioshin really said that the Saiyans are stronger than him, not counting the Budokai which Kaioshin may not have spoken the truth. Speaking of the Budokai, Vegeta was willing to fight Piccolo or No.18, but I don't see why think that Vegeta would really not transform if he needed to.

Other than that, Piccolo said the Kaioshin was stronger than him (but that depends on someone opinions about the fight with the Cell Jr.), and the Daizenshuu even mention that Kibito can give Gohan a good fight as long he doesn't transform in Super Saiyan.

So it is open for interpretation. The Boo saga is that weird.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Both sides have.

What argument is there? All I here is a strong feeling sort of thing no real evidence that suggest base Vegeta is weaker than Kaioshin.

I don't want to offend you, but it seems hard for you to accept anything except your own point of view.

The fact is that it was never directly said that the Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin in their regular form. Except for Babidi and Darbra saying they could revive Majin Boo by using the energy of the three Saiyans, which should be jibberish considering Gohan filled less than half of it as a Super Saiyan 2, and Babidi or Darbra were not aware that they could transform.

Kaioshin was apprehensivene of Kaioshin subordinates, but it was hinted that, with exception of Vegeta, their Ki can't be detected, and not to mention that Yakon has special powers. And Kaioshin wasn't necessarily surprised of the Saiyans being stronger than him in their regular form, but that they are much stronger than he tought.

It is only when Goku transforms in Super Saiyan 2 that Kaioshin really said that the Saiyans are stronger than him, not counting the Budokai which Kaioshin may not have spoken the truth. Speaking of the Budokai, Vegeta was willing to fight Piccolo or No.18, but I don't see why think that Vegeta would really not transform if he needed to.

Other than that, Piccolo said the Kaioshin was stronger than him (but that depends on someone opinions about the fight with the Cell Jr.), and the Daizenshuu even mention that Kibito can give Gohan a good fight as long he doesn't transform in Super Saiyan.

So it is open for interpretation. The Boo saga is that weird.

Nah I can admit when I'm wrong and I'm open to suggestions however I dont see strong evidence for base Vegeta being weaker than Kaioshin. Yakon doesnt have magic powers. He is capable of eating light energy other than that he has nothing differentiating him from any other powerful character. Vegeta said he didnt need SSJ to win and was pretty confident about it. He knows how powerful both are.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I believe Kaioshin refers to Yakon as a "magical beast", so he has some relation to magic, whatever that might be.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I believe Kaioshin refers to Yakon as a "magical beast", so he has some relation to magic, whatever that might be.

Hmm perhaps that magic was eating light energy...? I'm not sure myself but Yakon never did use any other magical ability if you can even consider light energy consumption magic.

[Fox666]

Supposedly Darbra spit is considered magic, so...

[TheMightyOzaru]

Supposedly Darbra spit is considered magic, so...

I'm referring to Yakon not Dabura

[dbzfan7]

I don't think Kaioshin is anything special. Maybe he was made out to be but Toriyama just changed his mind on him IDK. Though I heard In a guidebook Kibito would give Gohan a fight if he didn't go SSJ, depending on how much Kaioshin is stronger then Kibito, it may not be unbelievable if Vegeta was stronger in base or not. I personally have Piccolo>Base Saiyans.