Was Gohan "Ultimate" in Movie #12?

[Fox666]

Of course Babidi and Darbra also said they could revive Boo with the energy of the three. Since Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 filled less than half of Boo's energy, I guess the base Saiyans are also stronger than him too.

What evidence is there that Piccolo would put any sort of resistance up against SSjin Vegeta or Trunks?

Supposedly Piccolo could stand up against the Cell Jr. too. There is also the brief conversation with Goku after he left the RoSaT, which Trunks is surprised when Goku said Piccolo wouldn't be able to defeat Cell.

But this is a controversial matter, of course.

Oh and BTW I almost forgot something. Dabura thinks Yakon can beat all of them and he KNOWS how powerful Kaioshin is. I think thats proof enough dont you .

Babidi and Darbra never said anything about Yakon being able to defeat Kaioshin, they specifically only talked about him fighting the Saiyans:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P1.4-6
Context: after Babidi says to send Yakon to Stage 2
Dabra: “Yakon!? You’re already going to use Yakon on Stage 2!?”
Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’ll all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P2.4
Dabra: “...It’s quite impressive that you humans managed to defeat Yakon and come as far as Stage 3. I could even call it miraculous…”

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I just lost my entire post because I took too long. That's lame.

As for Dabra, I'd like to just say he was able to sense the potential "energy" they were capable of releasing since they were suppressed. And yeah, Gohan and Vegeta were okay with the idea of fighting in Base, but does that mean they were both confident in winning over the other?

Vegeta's claim makes sense because he's been keeping up with his training--and there's also the fact that he just didn't care, whereas Gohan only seemed to be up for it because he didn't want to reveal himself as a Super Saiyan rather than because he ws confidnt Piccolo or #18 wouldn't be a challenge for him. Gohan's not stupid--he was well aware he'd likely have trouble defeating Kibito without transforming, so we know he was at least considering the fact that he might need to power-up to defeat him. I just don't see Gohan or Vegeta allowing themselves to lose in the tournament because they decided to adhere to some stupid rule.

[Hitiro]

I'm quoting Dabura and it may not be his actual statement but its the jist of what he says. He regards the 3 as having a vast amount of energy. How is Kaioshin terrible at evaluating? He doesnt know who Pui Pui is so he is unsure of how powerful he is. Kaioshin knows who Yakon is and is scared to fight him alone. Kaioshin knows how powerful Dabura is. I see no reason to assume he is bad at guesstimating someones power. If Yakon scares him that much and finds his rep based on what he has heard to be more terrifying than Freeza I'm gonna assume he is stronger. Trunks knows nothing about Mr Satan other than he is the supposed strongest on Earth.

Kaioshin on the other hand again is an overseer and if he has heard something he probably knows how much of a threat he or she is. Something that is also interesting is that Kaioshin is very much impressed by the Base Saiyans however he regards Freeza as nothing and unimpressive. Dabura probably senses potential in Gohan or something. I do not think in any way that Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo without some hidden potential reserves. Notice that everyone has there energy suppressed yet Dabura has a clear idea of how much energy each individual has. Dabura seemingly has some unique ability however it is quite obvious that he cannot sense the energy of a SSJ since he was rather shocked by the 3,000 Kiris. It looks like this for me

Dabura > Goku > Vegeta > Yakon > Kaioshin > Pui Pui > Piccolo > Gohan >= Kibito

What? Goku has been training for 7 years where as Gohan has been slacking for 7 years. There is an obvious gap between them. Oh and BTW I almost forgot something. Dabura thinks Yakon can beat all of them and he KNOWS how powerful Kaioshin is. I think thats proof enough dont you .

Kaioshin is definitely terrible at evaluating peoples strength. For starters he thinks Vegeta can't take Pui Pui. Whereas Goku and Gohan knew he could do it by himself. Kaioshin then believes all four of them would be needed to defeat Yakon. This also proves to be a mistake on his part and Goku, Gohan and Vegeta know they could take Yakon in a 1 on 1. Then they have to take on Dabura, Kaioshin again thinks its foolish for them to do a 1 on 1, even Dabura does. But Gohan successfully holds his own against Dabura even if he's fighting a losing battle.

He then believes Boo is defeated because nothing but smoke comes out of the shell. He is also wrong here, Gohan senses Boo immediately where it takes the Kaioshin a page, maybe even a little more, to even notice anything. Dabura has also noticed something even before the Kaioshin. Goku even provides a pretty successful evaluation of Dabura's strength which leaves the Kaioshin perplexed by the strength of the Saiyan's.When Boo comes out the Kaioshin is petrified and says they have to get away or they're dead. Gohan takes note that Boo doesn't seem to be all that much, at the time, which makes the Kaioshin question this. If he is so good at evaluating an individuals strength why is questioning Gohan's words? He should have shot those words down immediately and stated Boo is much stronger than he could imagine if he knew anything. But the way he speaks in this passage it seems to suggest he's believing Gohan's statement on Boo not being much. Of course Gohan is wrong here but only because when Boo gets angry his true strength shows, something Kaioshin seemed to be oblivious to as well. And then later when he fuses with Kibito he thinks he can help Goku in the fight against Super Buu. Sorry, but Kaioshin is a useless god who's evaluation skills are more akin to a child in pre-school.

You can assume Kaioshin is afraid of Yakon because you think he's more powerful the Freeza all you want but that doesn't necessarily make it true. I'm not saying that my answer is correct either but I find it to be a more viable explanation that Kaioshin is basing his fear on Yakon's reputation, not his strength. Because as with all of the examples I gave you above he is TERRIBLE as evaluating an individuals strength. Furthermore, I doubt Pui Pui > Gohan. Gohan didn't seem to be worried about Pui Pui at all and didn't express anything a long the lines of it being difficult to beat Pui Pui like he did Kibito. And while Gohan has gotten weaker in the past 7 years its hard to believe that his strength dropped off so much compared to Goku and Vegeta. At the Cell Games Gohan was the most powerful Saiyan and Vegeta was still playing catchup to Goku, who was probably the closest to being Gohan's equal. If Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Cell Games Gohan then it isn't by much. Also considering Vegeta couldn't handle #18 when he was in SSJ and Piccolo was equal to #17 its hard to believe that in the 7 years Vegeta has improved over 50-100 times what he was for his Base form to be stronger than Piccolo's. The power gains from the Android Saga would be much smaller than they were on Namek otherwise why would Kami-Piccolo represent much of a threat to Vegeta? If the power gains were like that of Namek then Vegeta would have caught up to Kami-Piccolo fairly easily and characters like Piccolo wouldn't serve much of a purpose either.

I just lost my entire post because I took too long. That's lame.

If you click the back button on your browser to the point where you were writing the reply out the post you were writing should be saved in the buffer. Thats what I usually do and then I just ctrl+c and ctrl+v it back in the new post.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But that's subjective and not measurable.

Like I said before, it's my opinion. Since we can't measure how strong the heroes became after Freeza arc, I can have them being as strong as I want (to a degree). I said why I believe that base Saiyans are stronger than 50% Final Form Freeza, and it sounds fine to me.

And I should mentioned that the increases in power seems to have slowed down after the Freeza saga.

Since we can't measure how strong they became in the first place, we can't know that for sure.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Of course Babidi and Darbra also said they could revive Boo with the energy of the three. Since Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 filled less than half of Boo's energy, I guess the base Saiyans are also stronger than him too.

What evidence is there that Piccolo would put any sort of resistance up against SSjin Vegeta or Trunks?

Supposedly Piccolo could stand up against the Cell Jr. too. There is also the brief conversation with Goku after he left the RoSaT, which Trunks is surprised when Goku said Piccolo wouldn't be able to defeat Cell.

But this is a controversial matter, of course.

Oh and BTW I almost forgot something. Dabura thinks Yakon can beat all of them and he KNOWS how powerful Kaioshin is. I think thats proof enough dont you .

Babidi and Darbra never said anything about Yakon being able to defeat Kaioshin, they specifically only talked about him fighting the Saiyans:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P1.4-6
Context: after Babidi says to send Yakon to Stage 2
Dabra: “Yakon!? You’re already going to use Yakon on Stage 2!?”
Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’ll all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P2.4
Dabra: “...It’s quite impressive that you humans managed to defeat Yakon and come as far as Stage 3. I could even call it miraculous…”

Here is the major problem with that logic. What is to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Kaioshin would clearly jump in if the situation called for it. Dabura is clearly referring to all of them. Furthermore according to this scanlation I'm reading Babidi request Yakon to kill all 3 of them except for Kaioshin implying that Yakon could kill Kaioshin. However his is a scanlation of chapter 451 page 9 let me know if its inaccurate.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm quoting Dabura and it may not be his actual statement but its the jist of what he says. He regards the 3 as having a vast amount of energy. How is Kaioshin terrible at evaluating? He doesnt know who Pui Pui is so he is unsure of how powerful he is. Kaioshin knows who Yakon is and is scared to fight him alone. Kaioshin knows how powerful Dabura is. I see no reason to assume he is bad at guesstimating someones power. If Yakon scares him that much and finds his rep based on what he has heard to be more terrifying than Freeza I'm gonna assume he is stronger. Trunks knows nothing about Mr Satan other than he is the supposed strongest on Earth.

Kaioshin on the other hand again is an overseer and if he has heard something he probably knows how much of a threat he or she is. Something that is also interesting is that Kaioshin is very much impressed by the Base Saiyans however he regards Freeza as nothing and unimpressive. Dabura probably senses potential in Gohan or something. I do not think in any way that Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo without some hidden potential reserves. Notice that everyone has there energy suppressed yet Dabura has a clear idea of how much energy each individual has. Dabura seemingly has some unique ability however it is quite obvious that he cannot sense the energy of a SSJ since he was rather shocked by the 3,000 Kiris. It looks like this for me

Dabura > Goku > Vegeta > Yakon > Kaioshin > Pui Pui > Piccolo > Gohan >= Kibito

What? Goku has been training for 7 years where as Gohan has been slacking for 7 years. There is an obvious gap between them. Oh and BTW I almost forgot something. Dabura thinks Yakon can beat all of them and he KNOWS how powerful Kaioshin is. I think thats proof enough dont you .

Kaioshin is definitely terrible at evaluating peoples strength. For starters he thinks Vegeta can't take Pui Pui. Whereas Goku and Gohan knew he could do it by himself. Kaioshin then believes all four of them would be needed to defeat Yakon. This also proves to be a mistake on his part and Goku, Gohan and Vegeta know they could take Yakon in a 1 on 1. Then they have to take on Dabura, Kaioshin again thinks its foolish for them to do a 1 on 1, even Dabura does. But Gohan successfully holds his own against Dabura even if he's fighting a losing battle.

He then believes Boo is defeated because nothing but smoke comes out of the shell. He is also wrong here, Gohan senses Boo immediately where it takes the Kaioshin a page, maybe even a little more, to even notice anything. Dabura has also noticed something even before the Kaioshin. Goku even provides a pretty successful evaluation of Dabura's strength which leaves the Kaioshin perplexed by the strength of the Saiyan's.When Boo comes out the Kaioshin is petrified and says they have to get away or they're dead. Gohan takes note that Boo doesn't seem to be all that much, at the time, which makes the Kaioshin question this. If he is so good at evaluating an individuals strength why is questioning Gohan's words? He should have shot those words down immediately and stated Boo is much stronger than he could imagine if he knew anything. But the way he speaks in this passage it seems to suggest he's believing Gohan's statement on Boo not being much. Of course Gohan is wrong here but only because when Boo gets angry his true strength shows, something Kaioshin seemed to be oblivious to as well. And then later when he fuses with Kibito he thinks he can help Goku in the fight against Super Buu. Sorry, but Kaioshin is a useless god who's evaluation skills are more akin to a child in pre-school.

You can assume Kaioshin is afraid of Yakon because you think he's more powerful the Freeza all you want but that doesn't necessarily make it true. I'm not saying that my answer is correct either but I find it to be a more viable explanation that Kaioshin is basing his fear on Yakon's reputation, not his strength. Because as with all of the examples I gave you above he is TERRIBLE as evaluating an individuals strength. Furthermore, I doubt Pui Pui > Gohan. Gohan didn't seem to be worried about Pui Pui at all and didn't express anything a long the lines of it being difficult to beat Pui Pui like he did Kibito. And while Gohan has gotten weaker in the past 7 years its hard to believe that his strength dropped off so much compared to Goku and Vegeta. At the Cell Games Gohan was the most powerful Saiyan and Vegeta was still playing catchup to Goku, who was probably the closest to being Gohan's equal. If Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Cell Games Gohan then it isn't by much. Also considering Vegeta couldn't handle #18 when he was in SSJ and Piccolo was equal to #17 its hard to believe that in the 7 years Vegeta has improved over 50-100 times what he was for his Base form to be stronger than Piccolo's. The power gains from the Android Saga would be much smaller than they were on Namek otherwise why would Kami-Piccolo represent much of a threat to Vegeta? If the power gains were like that of Namek then Vegeta would have caught up to Kami-Piccolo fairly easily and characters like Piccolo wouldn't serve much of a purpose either.

I just lost my entire post because I took too long. That's lame.

If you click the back button on your browser to the point where you were writing the reply out the post you were writing should be saved in the buffer. Thats what I usually do and then I just ctrl+c and ctrl+v it back in the new post.

I'm not saying Yakon is factually stronger its my opinion. You are kind of missing the point I had made of Kaioshin knowing nothing about the Saiyans other than the Super Saiyan and yet knows of Yakon. Anyone he isnt familiar with he will exercise caution with. Gohan knows he can take Yakon but in what form? Gohan doesnt state he could beat Yakon in base now did he? I'm well aware Kaioshin cant really sense energy but he has an idea of how strong his opponents are. When did I ever say Kaioshin was "good" at evaluating strength? I claim he has a general idea of what he is up against based on what he has heard. He had heard nothing about the Saiyans nor Pui Pui so he has nothing to go off of there. Umm not at all. What makes you think that Kaioshin believes for one second Gohan can take Buu? I suggest going back through and reading what Kaioshin says. He is saying there is no way we can defeat Buu. Kibito Kaioshin didnt think he could take Buu at all =/. He got excited about his new power and said he could help in the excitement. SSJ Gohan is stronger than Pui Pui but not base Gohan. If Gohan can transform why should he be afraid =/? Vegeta got 1 year in the Time chamber with a sparing partner. He got much much stronger than 18 in just his SSJ form. His Power level grew exponentially. He then trained really hard for 7 Years. I am on the side of exponential Ki growth as opposed to minuscule Ki growth. I dont think a 50x increase over the course of 8 years is hard to believe. Goku got 33x stronger in healing tank over the course not even a day. You have to remember that Zenkai's can be incorporated into this. Does Piccolo get seen being useful after he is cast aside by Cell? Hmm I dont think so. We have no idea how powerful Saiyans got over the course of 7-8 years. Remember they are the ultimate warrior race they live to fight and keep getting stronger and stronger. I dont find it hard to believe that 7-8 years of training plus Zenkai's, however minuscule they may be at this point, that Vegeta got 50-100x stronger. I know this is non canon but look at GT. Goku is around Kid Buu's level in just 15 years of training. Thats about a 400x increase. Then there is Uub, the reincarnation of Buu, whom is giving Goku trouble. Uub may not be at his full power but I see no reason for it to be that much smaller than even Good Buu at this point and yet Goku can fight against that in base? Thats impressive. You are also missing the point I had made about Dabura being fairly confident that Yakon could eliminate all of them. You could say that he is only referring to the Saiyans but whats to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Kaioshin would dispose of the Saiyans if he had to to stop Buu from being resurrected.

[Fox666]

Here is the major problem with that logic. What is to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Kaioshin would clearly jump in if the situation called for it. Dabura is clearly referring to all of them.

No, Kaioshin is neither an Earthlings or human, so he is not speaking of him.

Furthermore according to this scanlation I'm reading Babidi request Yakon to kill all 3 of them except for Kaioshin implying that Yakon could kill Kaioshin. However his is a scanlation of chapter 451 page 9 let me know if its inaccurate.

I missed that part. I guess you could say then that Babidi expected Yakon to be able to harm Kaioshin.

Of course it raises the question of whenever Babidi is underestimating Kaioshin or not. Babidi also claimed he could take Kaioshin on his own, but was easily defeated by a much weaker Piccolo.

I dont find it hard to believe that 7-8 years of training plus Zenkai's, however minuscule they may be at this point, that Vegeta got 50-100x stronger.

It doesn't seems so. Gohan actually got weaker during the time. And it seems Goku and Vegeta (after Babidi increased his strength) are also only a little stronger than Gohan was as a Super Saiyan 2.

[Insertclevername]

Where did it ever say Gohan got weaker during the 7 year gap. From what I can tell, he just made no improvement.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Here is the major problem with that logic. What is to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Kaioshin would clearly jump in if the situation called for it. Dabura is clearly referring to all of them.

No, Kaioshin is neither an Earthlings or human, so he is not speaking of him.

Umm did you even read what I had stated? I stated what is to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Furthermore Dabura doesnt specify.

Furthermore according to this scanlation I'm reading Babidi request Yakon to kill all 3 of them except for Kaioshin implying that Yakon could kill Kaioshin. However his is a scanlation of chapter 451 page 9 let me know if its inaccurate.

I missed that part. I guess you could say then that Babidi expected Yakon to be able to harm Kaioshin.

Of course it raises the question of whenever Babidi is underestimating Kaioshin or not. Babidi also claimed he could take Kaioshin on his own, but was easily defeated by a much weaker Piccolo.

When the heck did Babidid state he could beat Kaioshin? Furthermore he does have magical abilities who the heck knows what he could do to Kaioshin.

I dont find it hard to believe that 7-8 years of training plus Zenkai's, however minuscule they may be at this point, that Vegeta got 50-100x stronger.

It doesn't seems so. Gohan actually got weaker during the time. And it seems Goku and Vegeta (after Babidi increased his strength) are also only a little stronger than Gohan was as a Super Saiyan 2.

I incorporate a rage boost into Gohan's SSJ2 power level. Its usually anywhere between a 5-10x increase IMO. Furthermore how do you know how powerful Vegeta and Goku are at this point? They couldnt be much stronger than Gohan at this point and nothing disputes that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Where did it ever say Gohan got weaker during the 7 year gap. From what I can tell, he just made no improvement.

I believe in the Daizenshuu 2 if not its implied by Vegeta since he states Gohan was stronger as a kid when fighting Dabura.

[Hitiro]

I'm not saying Yakon is factually stronger its my opinion. You are kind of missing the point I had made of Kaioshin knowing nothing about the Saiyans other than the Super Saiyan and yet knows of Yakon. Anyone he isnt familiar with he will exercise caution with. Gohan knows he can take Yakon but in what form? Gohan doesnt state he could beat Yakon in base now did he? I'm well aware Kaioshin cant really sense energy but he has an idea of how strong his opponents are. When did I ever say Kaioshin was "good" at evaluating strength? I claim he has a general idea of what he is up against based on what he has heard.

He had heard nothing about the Saiyans nor Pui Pui so he has nothing to go off of there. Umm not at all. What makes you think that Kaioshin believes for one second Gohan can take Buu? I suggest going back through and reading what Kaioshin says. He is saying there is no way we can defeat Buu. Kibito Kaioshin didnt think he could take Buu at all =/. He got excited about his new power and said he could help in the excitement. SSJ Gohan is stronger than Pui Pui but not base Gohan. If Gohan can transform why should he be afraid =/?

Vegeta got 1 year in the Time chamber with a sparing partner. He got much much stronger than 18 in just his SSJ form. His Power level grew exponentially. He then trained really hard for 7 Years. I am on the side of exponential Ki growth as opposed to minuscule Ki growth. I dont think a 50x increase over the course of 8 years is hard to believe. Goku got 33x stronger in healing tank over the course not even a day. You have to remember that Zenkai's can be incorporated into this. Does Piccolo get seen being useful after he is cast aside by Cell? Hmm I dont think so. We have no idea how powerful Saiyans got over the course of 7-8 years.

Remember they are the ultimate warrior race they live to fight and keep getting stronger and stronger. I dont find it hard to believe that 7-8 years of training plus Zenkai's, however minuscule they may be at this point, that Vegeta got 50-100x stronger. I know this is non canon but look at GT. Goku is around Kid Buu's level in just 15 years of training. Thats about a 400x increase. Then there is Uub, the reincarnation of Buu, whom is giving Goku trouble. Uub may not be at his full power but I see no reason for it to be that much smaller than even Good Buu at this point and yet Goku can fight against that in base? Thats impressive. You are also missing the point I had made about Dabura being fairly confident that Yakon could eliminate all of them. You could say that he is only referring to the Saiyans but whats to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Kaioshin would dispose of the Saiyans if he had to to stop Buu from being resurrected.

Paragraphs please. Now to start with I am not missing the point. I'm pretty sure Kaioshin says something along the lines of he's "heard" of Yakon before. That does not mean he "knows" about Yakon, which is why he's going on Yakon's reputation. Gohan would have still expressed something if he couldn't of handled him in his base form. Like when he states that he'd have trouble against Kibito unless he went SSJ. He was pretty nonchalant about the whole situation. You can even go as far as to say he's arrogant. You say Kaioshin has an idea of how strong his opponents are, yet the Kaioshin has been wrong at every turn throughout the manga. You can't tell me he's that good at evaluating people because he's never been correct about anything apart from maybe Boo. You said there is no reason to assume he's bad at guesstimating someones power yet he's never been spot on with ANYTHING.

Kaioshin never says Gohan could take Boo. You totally misread what I said. But it seems you don't know remember much either. When Boo is released Gohan states that Boo seems manageable. The Kaioshin responds to this and asks him if that really is the case. If the Kaioshin has a general idea of what he is up against based on what he's heard and experience then there is no reason for him to start questioning himself here. You also seemed to have misread what I said about Kibito Kaioshin I said he thinks he can "help" Goku in the fight against Super Boo. I never stated that he thought he could take Super Boo. So are you saying that Base Gohan is not that much stronger than Pui Pui? Well then I guess Gohan shouldn't be able to withstand more than 10 times normal gravity if that is the case. Pui Pui makes it sound as if its some sort of amazing accomplishment that he was raised under 10 times normal gravity. Pui Pui seems as if he's not that strong at all to be honest. If he thinks 10 times normal gravity is so great he probably isn't any stronger than the Saiyan's were in the Namek Saga. =\

Yes, Vegeta got stronger in the RoSaT, stronger than #18 while in SSJ. But that really means nothing. Small gains are large ones when you take into consideration the SSJ form. If Goku were at powerlevel of 3 million then his powerlevel in SSJ would be 150 million. Now if we increase his base powerlevel by a further 3 million his SSJ form increases by 150 million. Do you see? No matter how small the gains while they are in their base forms its multiplied by 50 times anyway when they go SSJ so the gains are rather large if you take into consideration the SSJ form. Also you're forgetting that Zenkai's took a back seat during the Cell Games, apart from Pefect Cell's Zenkai no other character made any noticeable improvements from almost experiencing death. You could argue that Goku got to where he was by training with Gohan who was much stronger than him but that says more about training with other strong individuals rather than the Saiyan's growth through training.

Vegeta is pretty much a loner and while he did share the RoSaT with Trunks I very much doubt he did any sparring with him considering how he is. And even if he did Trunks is around the same level as him anyway so its incomparable to having a person like Gohan who, thanks to his hidden strength, pushed Goku to new levels. Vegeta had nobody to spar with for the next 7 years so he was stuck with training by himself. Goku on the other hand was training in otherworld with other warriors and without limitations on his body. Of course as Goku state there was nobody at his level of strength to do fusion so sparring wouldn't have been so beneficial for him. And yes, Piccolo was helpful against the Cell Jr's. I believe one of the other members on here, who understands Japanese, brought up that the Japanese translation of the line where Cell is talking about how Vegeta and Trunks are handling the Cell Jr's there's a word in there which basically translates to them not being the only ones holding their own against the Cell Jr's. Considering we see Tien, Yamcha, Krillin and Goku, who was weakened at the time, being pasted by the things the only other person who could be handling himself well is Piccolo.

How does the statement Dabura made validate anything? That statement is made yet Base Goku is stronger than Yakon so its just Dabura underestimating their strength. Him and Babidi thought Pui Pui should be able to handle the Saiyan's and were shocked that they were that strong. So while Dabura did say they have marvellous energy earlier he's clearly still thinking of them as cannon fodder.

As for GT it can hardly be counted as a plausible explanation so I don't know why you brought it up.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm not saying Yakon is factually stronger its my opinion. You are kind of missing the point I had made of Kaioshin knowing nothing about the Saiyans other than the Super Saiyan and yet knows of Yakon. Anyone he isnt familiar with he will exercise caution with. Gohan knows he can take Yakon but in what form? Gohan doesnt state he could beat Yakon in base now did he? I'm well aware Kaioshin cant really sense energy but he has an idea of how strong his opponents are. When did I ever say Kaioshin was "good" at evaluating strength? I claim he has a general idea of what he is up against based on what he has heard.

He had heard nothing about the Saiyans nor Pui Pui so he has nothing to go off of there. Umm not at all. What makes you think that Kaioshin believes for one second Gohan can take Buu? I suggest going back through and reading what Kaioshin says. He is saying there is no way we can defeat Buu. Kibito Kaioshin didnt think he could take Buu at all =/. He got excited about his new power and said he could help in the excitement. SSJ Gohan is stronger than Pui Pui but not base Gohan. If Gohan can transform why should he be afraid =/?

Vegeta got 1 year in the Time chamber with a sparing partner. He got much much stronger than 18 in just his SSJ form. His Power level grew exponentially. He then trained really hard for 7 Years. I am on the side of exponential Ki growth as opposed to minuscule Ki growth. I dont think a 50x increase over the course of 8 years is hard to believe. Goku got 33x stronger in healing tank over the course not even a day. You have to remember that Zenkai's can be incorporated into this. Does Piccolo get seen being useful after he is cast aside by Cell? Hmm I dont think so. We have no idea how powerful Saiyans got over the course of 7-8 years.

Remember they are the ultimate warrior race they live to fight and keep getting stronger and stronger. I dont find it hard to believe that 7-8 years of training plus Zenkai's, however minuscule they may be at this point, that Vegeta got 50-100x stronger. I know this is non canon but look at GT. Goku is around Kid Buu's level in just 15 years of training. Thats about a 400x increase. Then there is Uub, the reincarnation of Buu, whom is giving Goku trouble. Uub may not be at his full power but I see no reason for it to be that much smaller than even Good Buu at this point and yet Goku can fight against that in base? Thats impressive. You are also missing the point I had made about Dabura being fairly confident that Yakon could eliminate all of them. You could say that he is only referring to the Saiyans but whats to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Kaioshin would dispose of the Saiyans if he had to to stop Buu from being resurrected.

Paragraphs please. Now to start with I am not missing the point. I'm pretty sure Kaioshin says something along the lines of he's "heard" of Yakon before. That does not mean he "knows" about Yakon, which is why he's going on Yakon's reputation. Gohan would have still expressed something if he couldn't of handled him in his base form. Like when he states that he'd have trouble against Kibito unless he went SSJ. He was pretty nonchalant about the whole situation. You can even go as far as to say he's arrogant. You say Kaioshin has an idea of how strong his opponents are, yet the Kaioshin has been wrong at every turn throughout the manga. You can't tell me he's that good at evaluating people because he's never been correct about anything apart from maybe Boo. You said there is no reason to assume he's bad at guesstimating someones power yet he's never been spot on with ANYTHING.

Kaioshin never says Gohan could take Boo. You totally misread what I said. But it seems you don't know remember much either. When Boo is released Gohan states that Boo seems manageable. The Kaioshin responds to this and asks him if that really is the case. If the Kaioshin has a general idea of what he is up against based on what he's heard and experience then there is no reason for him to start questioning himself here. You also seemed to have misread what I said about Kibito Kaioshin I sad he thinks he can "help" Goku in the fight against Super Boo. I never stated that he thought he could take Super Boo. So are you saying that Base Gohan is not that much stronger than Pui Pui? Well then I guess Gohan shouldn't be able to withstand more than 10 times normal gravity if that is the case. Pui Pui makes it sound as if its some sort of amazing accomplishment that he was raised under 10 times normal gravity. Pui Pui seems as if he's not that strong at all to be honest. If he thinks 10 times normal gravity is so great he probably isn't any stronger than the Saiyan's were in the Namek Saga. =\

Yes, Vegeta got stronger in the RoSaT, stronger than #18 while in SSJ. But that really means nothing. Small gains are large ones when you take into consideration the SSJ form. If Goku were at powerlevel of 3 million then his powerlevel in SSJ would be 150 million. Now if we increase his base powerlevel by a further 3 million his SSJ form increases by 150 million. Do you see? No matter how small the gains while they are in their base forms its multiplied by 50 times anyway when they go SSJ so the gains are rather large if you take into consideration the SSJ form. Also you're forgetting that Zenkai's took a back seat during the Cell Games, apart from Pefect Cell's Zenkai no other character made any noticeable improvements from almost experiencing death. You could argue that Goku got to where he was by training with Gohan who was much stronger than him but that says more about training with other strong individuals rather than the Saiyan's growth through training.

Vegeta is pretty much a loner and while he did share the RoSaT with Trunks I very much doubt he did any sparring with him considering how he is. And even if he did Trunks is around the same level as him anyway so its incomparable to having a person like Gohan who, thanks to his hidden strength, pusher Goku to new levels. Vegeta had nobody to spar with for the next 7 years so he was stuck with training by himself. Goku on the other hand was training in otherworld with other warriors and without limitations on his body. Of course as Goku state there was nobody at his level of strength to do fusion so sparring wouldn't have been so beneficial for him. And yes, Piccolo was helpful against the Cell Jr's. I believe one of the other members on here, who understands Japanese, brought up that the Japanese translation of the line where Cell is talking about how Vegeta and Trunks are handling the Cell Jr's there's a word in there which basically translates to them not being the only ones holding their own against the Cell Jr's. Considering we see Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Krillin and Goku, who was weakened at the time, being pasted by the things the only other person who could be handling himself well is Piccolo.

How does the statement Dabura made validate anything? That statement is made yet Base Goku is stronger than Yakon so its just a Dabura underestimating their strength. They thought Pui Pui should be able to handle them and were shocked that they were that strong. So while Dabura did say they have marvellous energy earlier he's clearly still thinking of them as cannon fodder.

As for GT it can hardly be counted as a plausible explanation so I don't know why you brought it up.

Zenkais did NOT disappear. There is nothing suggesting that. Dabura's statement is valid because Kaioshin could easily jump in and kill Yakon if Goku were to have any trouble. Its pretty obvious Kaioshin isnt just gonna sit there and watch Yakon gather energy for Buu and Dabura obviously knows this. Furthermore we dont even know how strong Pui Pui is =/. Pui Pui is thought to be weak because of the 10Gs think. 10Gs cannot be withstood if you arent used to it no matter how powerful you are =/. Dabura just has says they have a lot of energy and disregards Piccolo. He clearly cant sense 100% how strong they are but Dabura's statement claims Piccolo is weaker than the 3. You are making very void points here I'm aware that SSJ always multiplies the users power by 50 that doesnt mean the villains and base levels are exponentially stronger than Frieza's full power =/. There is nothing that defies base Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo and statements can deny them being weaker than Frieza. You see you are completely ignoring the fact that Babidi and Dabura think that Yakon and Pui Pui can beat Kaioshin and the Saiyans. Babidi even says, in chapter 451 pg 9, something along the lines of "Yakon kill all of them except for Kaioshin leave him alive." This implies that Yakon is stronger that Kaioshin since Babidid and Dabura both know how much of a threat Kaioshin is. I'm pretty sure Vegeta wanted to test his power on someone sooooooooooo I would imagine he sparred. Umm no.... Piccolo got owned by the Cell Juniors. Hell there is like one panel where he is fighting them and he isnt even really fighting them.

[Mystic Gohan]

I just lost my entire post because I took too long. That's lame.

As for Dabra, I'd like to just say he was able to sense the potential "energy" they were capable of releasing since they were suppressed. And yeah, Gohan and Vegeta were okay with the idea of fighting in Base, but does that mean they were both confident in winning over the other?

Vegeta's claim makes sense because he's been keeping up with his training--and there's also the fact that he just didn't care, whereas Gohan only seemed to be up for it because he didn't want to reveal himself as a Super Saiyan rather than because he ws confidnt Piccolo or #18 wouldn't be a challenge for him. Gohan's not stupid--he was well aware he'd likely have trouble defeating Kibito without transforming, so we know he was at least considering the fact that he might need to power-up to defeat him. I just don't see Gohan or Vegeta allowing themselves to lose in the tournament because they decided to adhere to some stupid rule.

Gohan wants to win the tournament too. He has enough determination to actually train when he hasn't done so in seven years. Your point about Kibito is true indeed, but you have to remember that he wasn't expecting someone like Kibito to be at the tournament after all.

@Fox:

It is heavily implied that Gohan's SSjin 2 power is forgotten after the budokai. A lot of people act like they haven't even sensed it.

[Hitiro]

Zenkais did NOT disappear. There is nothing suggesting that. Dabura's statement is valid because Kaioshin could easily jump in and kill Yakon if Goku were to have any trouble. Its pretty obvious Kaioshin isnt just gonna sit there and watch Yakon gather energy for Buu and Dabura obviously knows this. Furthermore we dont even know how strong Pui Pui is =/. Pui Pui is thought to be weak because of the 10Gs think. 10Gs cannot be withstood if you arent used to it no matter how powerful you are =/. Dabura just has says they have a lot of energy and disregards Piccolo. He clearly cant sense 100% how strong they are but Dabura's statement claims Piccolo is weaker than the 3. You are making very void points here I'm aware that SSJ always multiplies the users power by 50 that doesnt mean the villains and base levels are exponentially stronger than Freeza's full power =/. There is nothing that defies base Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo and statements can deny them being weaker than Freeza. You see you are completely ignoring the fact that Babidi and Dabura think that Yakon and Pui Pui can beat Kaioshin and the Saiyans. Babidi even says, in chapter 451 pg 9, something along the lines of "Yakon kill all of them except for Kaioshin leave him alive." This implies that Yakon is stronger that Kaioshin since Babidid and Dabura both know how much of a threat Kaioshin is. I'm pretty sure Vegeta wanted to test his power on someone sooooooooooo I would imagine he sparred. Umm no.... Piccolo got owned by the Cell Juniors. Hell there is like one panel where he is fighting them and he isnt even really fighting them.

I didn't say Zenkai's disappeared, I said they took a back seat. By the Cell Games Zenkai's were an insignificant boost apart from Cell's Zenkai. Otherwise it would have noted or hinted at during the death battles they had with androids and Cell. Dabura's statement isn't valid because he's believes the Saiyan's aren't much. Only the Kaioshin would be a problem and if this were the case then there isn't anything to worry about because Dabura can pick him off after Yakon has finished gathering the energy from the Saiyan's.

And no, you don't have to be used to a gravity level to train at it. Vegeta states that he could train under more than 100g's to Dr. Briefs so he tells him to make a gravity machine which will support higher gravity levels. Now explain to me. How can Vegeta train at higher gravity levels than Goku if he's never experienced them? We know that a powerlevel of 90,000 can withstand a gravity level of 100 times Earths gravity and Vegeta's powerlevel after the Namek saga is MUCH higher than this. So its safe to assume a warrior who's never trained under 100g can train under it if he's as strong as Goku. In regard to Dabura's energy statement he was probably able to tell that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are stronger because of their SSJ forms being a hidden energy that he couldn't quite comprehend. Dabura just understood that what he was sensing from Goku, Vegeta and Gohan weren't their maximum outputs whereas Piccolo's was.

There is no reason to believe that Kaioshin could have been beaten by Yakon or Pui Pui. Dabura only points to the Saiyan's not being able to handle Yakon, he makes no mention of the Kaioshin. As for the Kaioshin he was in fear due to Yakon's reputation. He didn't know how strong Yakon was. I'm sure if he was any good at evaluating Yakon he would have realised he could have beaten Yakon by himself. Vegeta didn't even know Trunks surpassed the Super Saiyan wall by a much larger margin than Vegeta, so I doubt they sparred. And as I said, even if they did then their strength wouldn't be that much of an increase through sparring because they are both around the same level. In Goku and Gohan's case it was completely different. As long as Goku sparred with Gohan more of Gohan's potential came out which kept putting Goku at a major disadvantage giving him the relevant boosts. So as Goku got stronger Gohan got much stronger due to his hidden potential and then Goku would get stronger again.

And no, you really need to read the chapter again. The only clear panel of Piccolo is after Gohan killed the Cell Jr's. And he is the only person, apart from Trunks and Vegeta, standing. The rest of them were on the floor. And in the Japanese text it says that Trunks and Vegeta aren't the only ones holding their own. So explain to me who else is handling the Cell Jr's? Goku definitely isn't we seem him going to the ground and Krillin, Yamcha and Tien were getting smacked about and put to the ground also. So why is it in the Japanese text it says that Trunks and Vegeta aren't the only ones holding their own? Please explain.

[Fox666]

No, Kaioshin is neither an Earthlings or human, so he is not speaking of him.

Umm did you even read what I had stated? I stated what is to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Furthermore Dabura doesnt specify.

Nothing is stopping Kaioshin, but Darbra wasn't speaking of him (in the lines I posted).

When the heck did Babidid state he could beat Kaioshin? Furthermore he does have magical abilities who the heck knows what he could do to Kaioshin.

At least Babidi was confident in confronting Kaioshin, while Darbra would fight Gohan.

But I agree, Babidi uses magic, so who knows what he can do. Just like the "magical beast Yakon", right?

I incorporate a rage boost into Gohan's SSJ2 power level. Its usually anywhere between a 5-10x increase IMO. Furthermore how do you know how powerful Vegeta and Goku are at this point? They couldnt be much stronger than Gohan at this point and nothing disputes that.

I don't really know where you are getting these numbers from. I don't really believe there is a tremendous difference beetween the Saiyans. They threat Super Saiyan 2 as a entire different level, desite multiplying the power by only two times. Also Gohan filled almost half of Boo's egg, and Goku was exhausted after filling the rest of it.

[hleV]

Goku was exhausted after filling the rest of it

And fighting Vegeta.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Zenkais did NOT disappear. There is nothing suggesting that. Dabura's statement is valid because Kaioshin could easily jump in and kill Yakon if Goku were to have any trouble. Its pretty obvious Kaioshin isnt just gonna sit there and watch Yakon gather energy for Buu and Dabura obviously knows this. Furthermore we dont even know how strong Pui Pui is =/. Pui Pui is thought to be weak because of the 10Gs think. 10Gs cannot be withstood if you arent used to it no matter how powerful you are =/. Dabura just has says they have a lot of energy and disregards Piccolo. He clearly cant sense 100% how strong they are but Dabura's statement claims Piccolo is weaker than the 3. You are making very void points here I'm aware that SSJ always multiplies the users power by 50 that doesnt mean the villains and base levels are exponentially stronger than Freeza's full power =/. There is nothing that defies base Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo and statements can deny them being weaker than Freeza. You see you are completely ignoring the fact that Babidi and Dabura think that Yakon and Pui Pui can beat Kaioshin and the Saiyans. Babidi even says, in chapter 451 pg 9, something along the lines of "Yakon kill all of them except for Kaioshin leave him alive." This implies that Yakon is stronger that Kaioshin since Babidid and Dabura both know how much of a threat Kaioshin is. I'm pretty sure Vegeta wanted to test his power on someone sooooooooooo I would imagine he sparred. Umm no.... Piccolo got owned by the Cell Juniors. Hell there is like one panel where he is fighting them and he isnt even really fighting them.

I didn't say Zenkai's disappeared, I said they took a back seat. By the Cell Games Zenkai's were an insignificant boost apart from Cell's Zenkai. Otherwise it would have noted or hinted at during the death battles they had with androids and Cell. Dabura's statement isn't valid because he's believes the Saiyan's aren't much. Only the Kaioshin would be a problem and if this were the case then there isn't anything to worry about because Dabura can pick him off after Yakon has finished gathering the energy from the Saiyan's.

And no, you don't have to be used to a gravity level to train at it. Vegeta states that he could train under more than 100g's to Dr. Briefs so he tells him to make a gravity machine which will support higher gravity levels. Now explain to me. How can Vegeta train at higher gravity levels than Goku if he's never experienced them? We know that a powerlevel of 90,000 can withstand a gravity level of 100 times Earths gravity and Vegeta's powerlevel after the Namek saga is MUCH higher than this. So its safe to assume a warrior who's never trained under 100g can train under it if he's as strong as Goku. In regard to Dabura's energy statement he was probably able to tell that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are stronger because of their SSJ forms being a hidden energy that he couldn't quite comprehend. Dabura just understood that what he was sensing from Goku, Vegeta and Gohan weren't their maximum outputs whereas Piccolo's was.

There is no reason to believe that Kaioshin could have been beaten by Yakon or Pui Pui. Dabura only points to the Saiyan's not being able to handle Yakon, he makes no mention of the Kaioshin. As for the Kaioshin he was in fear due to Yakon's reputation. He didn't know how strong Yakon was. I'm sure if he was any good at evaluating Yakon he would have realised he could have beaten Yakon by himself. Vegeta didn't even know Trunks surpassed the Super Saiyan wall by a much larger margin than Vegeta, so I doubt they sparred. And as I said, even if they did then their strength wouldn't be that much of an increase through sparring because they are both around the same level. In Goku and Gohan's case it was completely different. As long as Goku sparred with Gohan more of Gohan's potential came out which kept putting Goku at a major disadvantage giving him the relevant boosts. So as Goku got stronger Gohan got much stronger due to his hidden potential and then Goku would get stronger again.

And no, you really need to read the chapter again. The only clear panel of Piccolo is after Gohan killed the Cell Jr's. And he is the only person, apart from Trunks and Vegeta, standing. The rest of them were on the floor. And in the Japanese text it says that Trunks and Vegeta aren't the only ones holding their own. So explain to me who else is handling the Cell Jr's? Goku definitely isn't we seem him going to the ground and Krillin, Yamcha and Tenshinhan were getting smacked about and put to the ground also. So why is it in the Japanese text it says that Trunks and Vegeta aren't the only ones holding their own? Please explain.

How were the Zenkai's insignificant? something as simple as a 1.5-2x boost is pretty good. Seriously with all the training they do in the ROSAT I wouldnt be suprised if they got like 1 or 2 Zenkais a month. Seriously a 1.5x boost 12 times is massive. Keep in in mind that this is a gradual increase in effectiveness since that is 1.5 to the 12 power. Thats about a 48x increase on top of the Ki increase through training. Why is Cell's Zenkai any different? If Cell gets a massive Zenkai after a near death situation why not anyone else? They would have noted it? Why? Its pretty clear tha Zenkai's are prevelent based on Cell. Like Toriyama said himself power levels were incalcuable past the Frieza saga. Just because you cant notice the Zenkai's doesnt mean they are insignificant. For all you know android 18 could have been greatly stronger than SSJ Vegeta and even a Zenkai didint get Vegeta stronger than 18. You are entitled to your opinion of thinking Zenkai's took a huge hit and that training only yeilds a small result but that isnt a fact. Oh as for the Cell Jr thing. Piccolo is still getting beat. Piccolo might be able to fight back, barely, but even still he is getting beaten like everyone else. The Cell Jr's are clearly toying with all of them. Dabura cant sense the energy of a SSJ =/. Why do you think he was so suprised when Goku transformed and by the 3,000 Kiri's? Furthermore Dabura can only sense a lot of energy. He doesnt know 100% how strong the 7 are but he is still more impressed by the 3 and disreguards Piccolo. As for the Pui Pui gravity thing. Vegeta is used to such physical torture. He trains physically quite often. I suppose I should have worded that statement a little differently. What I meant to say was it doesnt matter how much energy you have, if your physical body isnt used to something its not gonna take it well. For example, Goku's Ki is enough to rip planets apart yet he is hard pressed to move with something as simple as 40 tons. Vegeta being able to train under 300x gravity probably also comes from all those Zenkai's he revieved on Namek. Zenkai's for all we know can increase physical strength and endurance as well as Ki. It would make a lot of sense. Wrong, kind of, Babidi states in Ch 451 pg 9 something along the lines of this, "Yakon kill all of them except for Kaioshin!" This implies that Yakon is capable of taking Kaioshin. I see no reason for Babidi to think his monster superior to a Kai unless he knows how strong his mosnter is which he does, 800 Kiris comes to mind. The Saiyans are mere mortals of an extinct race. Babidi has no reason to believe that the Saiyans are anything special.

[TheMightyOzaru]

No, Kaioshin is neither an Earthlings or human, so he is not speaking of him.

Umm did you even read what I had stated? I stated what is to stop Kaioshin from jumping in? Furthermore Dabura doesnt specify.

Nothing is stopping Kaioshin, but Darbra wasn't speaking of him (in the lines I posted).
I see. Either way though nothing is stopping Kaioshin and Dabura seems like a smart guy so I dont see any reason he would let that fly over his head.

When the heck did Babidid state he could beat Kaioshin? Furthermore he does have magical abilities who the heck knows what he could do to Kaioshin.

At least Babidi was confident in confronting Kaioshin, while Darbra would fight Gohan.

But I agree, Babidi uses magic, so who knows what he can do. Just like the "magical beast Yakon", right?

I incorporate a rage boost into Gohan's SSJ2 power level. Its usually anywhere between a 5-10x increase IMO. Furthermore how do you know how powerful Vegeta and Goku are at this point? They couldnt be much stronger than Gohan at this point and nothing disputes that.

I see. Either way though nothing is stopping Kaioshin and Dabura seems like a smart guy so I dont see any reason he would let that fly over his head.
Gohan recieved massive anger boosts in the past. I see no exception here. Why not? 7 years of intense training vs a weaker Gohan. Need I remind you what 1 year in the chamber did for all 4 of the Saiyans? Imagine 7 and put Goku in other world on top of that. I know, I think anger sparked the ascension at the Budokai giving him a rage boost but not to the degree he revieved at the Cell games. I know Gohan filled half of it thats why I believe Gohan recieved a rage boost. SSJ2 Gohan lacking anger filling about half of Majin Buu's power level is off to me.

[Fox666]

Goku was exhausted after filling the rest of it

And fighting Vegeta.

He filling Boo's energy during his fight with Vegeta...

Need I remind you what 1 year in the chamber did for all 4 of the Saiyans? Imagine 7 and put Goku in other world on top of that.

It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. There is no estabilished rule of how much the characters of how much the character must improve. At the beggining of the Namek saga, the Saiyans didn't gained that much of power after healing, but near the end they were increasing their strength by dozens of times, and after that these gains disappeared.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku was exhausted after filling the rest of it

And fighting Vegeta.

He filling Boo's energy during his fight with Vegeta...

Need I remind you what 1 year in the chamber did for all 4 of the Saiyans? Imagine 7 and put Goku in other world on top of that.

It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. There is no estabilished rule of how much the characters of how much the character must improve. At the beggining of the Namek saga, the Saiyans didn't gained that much of power after healing, but near the end they were increasing their strength by dozens of times, and after that these gains disappeared.

I'm aware but its apparent they got stronger. I mean look at Piccolo Pre Kami fusion. He was able to get so strong that he could take Android 20 who absorbed a bit of Vegeta's SSJ Ki in only 3 years. Why would Goku receive less than Piccolo when he is a Saiyan its pretty much common knowledge that Saiyans get stronger at a faster rate than the other Z-fighters? I see no reason myself. No these gains were never stated to have disappeared they merely became unnoticeable or were not delved into much. Why on Earth would the Saiyans lose an ability that really defines them? I personally think that after ascending to SSJ the Zenkai's dropped in effectiveness but are still there. Zenkais can be anywhere from a 1.5x increase to a 15x increase depending on the situation at this point in time IMO I certainly dont think they disappeared. I personally think that Zenkai's kept growing in the Frieza saga because of how many they had received and how powerful they were when they had received them played a part as well. The stronger you were the greater the Zenkai the numerous amount you had increased in effectiveness so to speak.