How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Kaboom]

All I can do is laugh at this nonsense

One more comment like this, from you or anyone else, and whoever said it is in very real danger of temp-banning.

Lemmy's right. All these inane arguments about the same old power levels crap is dragging the quality of the forum down. We're supposed to be better than this. We don't get haughty attitudes and insult each other over this meaningless tripe.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

The short answer: Because Gohan would have been defeated very quickly, and wasn't strong enough to fight the Pure Buu.

I will never understand how some can believe Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu.

[Saiga]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm in the same boat. I don't see how, outside of the lines from the anime, people would believe that Pure Boo and Goku are stronger than Evil Boo and Gohan unless they want them to be.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

And I'll address this one last time, Vegeta stating Buu's power level rising was before Kid Buu was even in the picture. Super Buu was still enraged and blowing steam when this was stated. Different thing, here. If he says this when Buu was already in his original form, then we'd have solid proof of Kid Buu being the superior form.

ALSO..... note how Buu absorbed TWO Kais. If the first absorption resulted in less power, he would not have even bothered with the other one, and I'm sure Buu is capable of telling whether or not he's weaker or stronger at one point. My conclusion = first Kai increased his power, then was thirsty for even more. So he went to Dai Kaioshin seeking his power, although his kindness took him over making him weaker. Supreme Kai only indicated the decrease in power after Buu had already absorbed BOTH Kais. Keep this in mind.

[Bussani]

you're twisting the story and adding in material that was never mentioned before to suit what YOU want it to say. It wasn't stated, and it wasn't implied at any point.

I kind of get the feeling some people would say the same about what you're doing. It doesn't help that you're using really inaccurate scanlations that lose some of the original dialogue's implications. That isn't to say that your point of view is impossible, but frankly, it's at least as flawed as any alternative. You're acting like it's perfect and everyone is crazy for not seeing it even though there are several things working against it. If no one can see beyond their own opinions, then a discussion can't really happen at all.

On topic, when Vegeta wishes the Earth and its people back, Goku's first thought is that he plans on bringing Gohan and Gotenks to help them. Vegeta simply says, "No," and goes on to explain his plan to have the people of Earth save themselves for once.

So why didn't they bring Gohan to fight Buu? Because Vegeta decided it would be better for Earth to save itself. Maybe not the most logical explanation, but it's pretty much the only one we're given.

[hleV]

On topic, when Vegeta wishes the Earth and its people back, Goku's first thought is that he plans on bringing Gohan and Gotenks to help them. Vegeta simply says, "No," and goes on to explain his plan to have the people of Earth save themselves for once.

So why didn't they bring Gohan to fight Buu? Because Vegeta decided it would be better for Earth to save itself. Maybe not the most logical explanation, but it's pretty much the only one we're given.

I wouldn't say it's illogical. It highlights the difference between Goku and Vegeta. I think the decision to let the Earthlings contribute to Boo's defeat was very in-character for Vegeta. Goku would just save the Earth without hesitation if he was able to, but Vegeta's not that kind-hearted and expects the Earthlings to at least do part of the job.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Perhaps Vegeta figured Gohan would somehow fuck it up. Buu can still absorb things when he feels pressured. Another Buuhan wouldn't exactly be a good thing. A Super Genki Drama wouldn't kill him.

How are you sure a Genki Dama wouldn't kill him? You're assuming that Earth < Gohan + Kid Buu? Not enough details to really support that theory.

The Genki Drama barely did the job with Pure Buu and Gohan is by far stronger than Pure Buu.

[Amuro Ray]

That's not uncertainty at all. He said that he wasn't sure/couldn't defeat Fat Buu just to instill the need for the boys to master the fusion dance even more (in short, he lied to Piccolo, hence the grin). In his "recant" as you put it, he clearly indicates that part of the reason why he didn't defeat Fat Buu back then was because he wanted the boys to be able to handle it and not rely on him to win.

I know, I pointed that out - I also pointed out that Goku tells Vegeta the same lie - we know it's a lie when he takes on "KidBuu" by himself after claiming his power was increasing. We even see, a few panels into the fight, "Kidbuu" is stronger than any of them anticipated.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

This means that he knew full well he could have defeated Fat Buu when he told Piccolo that he didn't think he could, thus he lied to him about it, and in turn wasn't unsure of his strength at all.

It'd be one thing if Goku actually physically fought Evil Buu after he made that comment, but he never did. It's clear that Goku's entire confrontation with Evil Buu inside Buu's body was a bluff on Goku's part. He had absolutely no reason to lie to Vegeta about their chances at defeating Buu on their own, but had every reason to lie to Evil Buu about how powerful he was in order to try and bluff his way out of a confrontation. He knew full well he stood absolutely no chance of actually beating him in a one-on-one battle, or even a two-on-one fight with Vegeta assisting him, but he was hoping that his feigned confidence would convince Buu of how powerful he was.

^Stop posting these, please. Source me the material so I can read it myself - so at the very least, we can be on the same page.
Goku was very unsure of his power as a SSJ3, again, it's not about pure output, this fight would mark the first time he obtained the form (to fight) in a living body -


Notice his comment about fusion - for him, that would have been the preferred method of fighting, instead of using an uproven form. He's stronger than Buu - Piccolo felt it, Vegeta feels it, and Goku knows it. But the strain of the form is starting to take its toll on him.

There are limitations on the SSJ3 form, it's not something Goku has mastered yet, and he would rather go with a more reliable option.

Vegeta clearly indicates as he and Goku are watching Buu revert to Pure Buu that he's undergoing another transformation after having first seen him revert from Evil Buu to the "Buff" Buu form he had when he absorbed South Kaioushin.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

So this is taking place after it's stated that he's getting stronger, so he has already transformed into the state that they said was "getting stronger".

So we agree - he's getting stronger

Then, after he's finished with the second transformation, Goku and Vegeta have this exchange.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

What were Goku and Vegeta setting out to do earlier that he'd feel the need to exclaim that "We did it!" and they might be able to manage something? Weakening Buu down to where they'd be able to fight him as they are and not need to fuse.

Second transformation? It never sates that he STOPPPED transforming - nor does the Manga ever give credit to the theory of "buffbuu" Certainly not in the scans I posted, and not in the "translations" posted by you. What we see - and what is directly stated is that BUU power drops from where it was originally after he absorbed Gohan and the others, but now his base power is rising higher than it was before. There is no indicator after this point to suggest that his power went down. None.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5

You just went back two chapters - Sorry, this doesn't make sense.

So even excluding the line that you keep saying is irrelevant, it's clear that Goku and Vegeta were removing cocoons to weaken Buu to where they would be able to fight him with any chance of winning, and it was reverting him down from Evil Buu to Pure Buu that Goku finally felt they had achieved that.

Evil Buu ("we're still simply no match for his strength!") transforms into Kaioushin Buu (“H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”), indicating a power increase.
Agree
Kaioushin Buu (“H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”) transforms into Pure Buu ("We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.") indicates a significant power decrease.

I'm trying hard not to be rude - but how does stating his power power is increasing means that he's getting weaker? How does adding to something make it less? You are reaching so hard are trying to read into what hasn't been stated or implied. To the contrary - we know that "Superbuu" was no stronger than "Fatbuu" and was the baseline for which we were comparing him too. Don't believe me?

At no time does these statements imply a power change. If you agree that "Kidbuu" is stronger than "Fatbuu" by default, he's stronger than "Superbuu"

As such, Pure Buu is significantly weaker than Evil Buu.

Everything I've said is in the manga. I'm not adding things or twisting things to try and make my side of the argument more convincing.

So making a comment about a characters power, and then going back 2 chapters to when the character doesn't exist isn't being a tad bit dishonest? I'll assume it was a mistake on you part and we can just go from here.

And notice, everything I said is in the manga AND the anime. My version of the story doesn't allow for contradictions - yours requires heavy implications that were not stated or implied at any point.

[Godo]

Sorry, but I personally find it really stupid that Goku and Vegeta have a 6th sense to accurately measure how powerful an enemy is (ki sense), use it to measure that Buff Buu is stronger then suddenly start measuring enemy threat by size instead of ki when Buff Buu shrinks down to Kid Buu for no apparent reason. It makes no sense.

To be fair, measuring an enemy's ki wrongly is not as rare as it seems in Dragonball.

And as for the anime, the anime's statements are the plot-holes. The manga says otherwise, like it or not.

As the initial question wasn't referring to any form of canon specifically, one could be fair to accept the anime's statement of Kid Buu being the strongest as anime only, and the statements from the manga separate to the anime.

Vegeta is talking about their rivalry. He is saying that Goku is the #1 between Goku & him, not that Goku is the #1 in the universe.

Or maybe also No. 1 as a friend.

I never stated otherwise - but what is explicitly stated is "Kiddbuu" power is greater than that of "Superbuu."

But it's not.

Say's who, you?

I can see this argument is going nowhere, you are far to caught up in your own ignorance to be intellectually honest.

You both are.

For you to hold onto one statement and ignoring all the others I have made is absolutely infuriating.

Frustration, anger and wetting yourself is something you have to accept going head-on into a Kid Buu vs. Super Buu debate.

Nothing in you version of the story makes sense, it's nonsense and circular logic.

But whaa? "Your version?". You guys have your own versions of the story? I have the anime, the manga and the movies. I'd love to enjoy your versions, too.

You know, except for the part where they state he's actually getting stronger.

I especially like the part when they said that he had shrunk in size not too long after that, with the most fearful facial expressions.

...such discussions are often subject to transform into heated debates. That's not just here like that, but everywhere and it will never end unless Akira comes and declares what is what and what is not, since the majority of people will only believe the be-all and end-all author of the fictional work when it comes to this stuff.

Or one could just enjoy the series for what it is? Just relax with a beer and a copy of the manga/anime. You know, being entertained by the media of entertainment.

@Amuro Ray, Man that's enough of your plain rudeness and just plain blindness.

To be fair against the guy, there had been rudeness and blindness from both sides.
I don't believe that he has been "blind" in the discussion. You are not "blind" if you stand by your opinion. If you are "blind" by doing that, then you are just as "blind".
Isn't a dude allowed to have his own interpretation? Even though he stands firmly for it?

There is a time where it is wrong though IMO, and that is when confusing forum as a means to "educate" other people only, and to only "state the facts".
If you go in by those standards, I believe that you have instantly lost the discussion to begin with.

[Darkprince410]

I know, I pointed that out - I also pointed out that Goku tells Vegeta the same lie - we know it's a lie when he takes on "KidBuu" by himself after claiming his power was increasing. We even see, a few panels into the fight, "Kidbuu" is stronger than any of them anticipated.

He's only stronger than Vegeta had anticipated, not Goku. Goku's only comments towards the difficulty of fighting Pure Buu is that no matter what he did, he couldn't drop Buu's stamina. Physically Goku was the stronger, but because of Buu's stamina, Goku was wearing himself out while Buu was able to bounce back, good as new each time.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.1
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for awhile
Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”

There are limitations on the SSJ3 form, it's not something Goku has mastered yet, and he would rather go with a more reliable option.

The mere fact that he was willing to go against Pure Buu on his own, yet was absolutely adamant that fusion was their only way of defeating any of Evil Buu's forms indicates that he was confident enough in his own power, even with some "unreliable" form as you call it, to be able to defeat Pure Buu, yet wasn't willing to take any chance when it comes to Evil Buu. That suggests quite heavily that he knew Evil Buu was stronger.

Second transformation? It never sates that he STOPPPED transforming - nor does the Manga ever give credit to the theory of "buffbuu" Certainly not in the scans I posted, and not in the "translations" posted by you. What we see - and what is directly stated is that BUU power drops from where it was originally after he absorbed Gohan and the others, but now his base power is rising higher than it was before. There is no indicator after this point to suggest that his power went down. None.

Vegeta clearly indicates that there is another transformation going on after he's already transformed into Kaioushin Buu.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Another, as in he's already transformed once since they left (which was from Evil Buu to Kaioushin Buu) and is now transforming again. He went from already being stronger than Goku and Vegeta (as per Goku's comment), to even stronger than that, to suddenly being at a level where Goku was confident he could take him by himself. That's a substantial drop in power, even if it isn't directly stated.

As for no credence to the Kaioushin Buu theory, actually it's spelled out pretty clear that the bulky Buu we see is the result of Pure Buu absorbing the South Kaioushin.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.3-4
Context: Kaioshin explains Boo's history
Kaioshin: “…First, two [Kaioshins] were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..”
Elder Kaioshin: …And he become that huge Boo from before?“
Kaioshin: “…Yes……”

I'm trying hard not to be rude - but how does stating his power power is increasing means that he's getting weaker? How does adding to something make it less? You are reaching so hard are trying to read into what hasn't been stated or implied. To the contrary - we know that "Superbuu" was no stronger than "Fatbuu" and was the baseline for which we were comparing him too. Don't believe me?

At no time does these statements imply a power change. If you agree that "Kidbuu" is stronger than "Fatbuu" by default, he's stronger than "Superbuu"

Evil Buu was clearly stated to be more powerful than Fat Buu though, and I mentioned that in the other topic.

[Hitiro]

The Genki Drama barely did the job with Pure Buu and Gohan is by far stronger than Pure Buu.

Well that's subject to speculation. I believe the Genki Dama barely did the job because Goku was weak, not because the Genki Dama was just barely strong enough to do the job. I think its said in the manga that, that is the reason. And if it could only "Barely" do the job I would think Pure Boo could have come back like he has done before. Also, why do you keep saying Genki Drama I'm curious; are you mocking it because it was the choice to finish the fight to create "drama" in the battle or is that how you're going about pronouncing it? I've always seen and been told its Dama, not Drama.

[Marco Polo]

Maybe they didn't bring Gohan because they were afraid that Kid Buu would absorb him again and recreate Super Buu.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Maybe they didn't bring Gohan because they were afraid that Kid Buu would absorb him again and recreate Super Buu.

That's true. Maybe Gohan would do what he did with Super Buu, "stand there" and wait for him to make a move. Gohan would have spent too much time being cocky and not actually get it over with. He did this very same thing with Cell, everybody was yelling "defeat Cell!! do it now!!" but he just messed around. That would give Buu enough time to absorb him.

[InfernalVegito]

I don't think that would be the case. If they brought Son Gohan back, I believe they would push him to end it if they got in trouble with Kid Boo. Son Gohan wouldn't be this dumb and cocky a second time against the same opponent. I couldn't take him seriously if he failed like that a third time.

[hleV]

Stop posting those terrible scans, please. Just provide quotes from the Strength Checker.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

"How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid buu?"
Because Gohan wouldn't have done anything but buy times to their death. Also, Goku asks Vegeta if he wants to bring both Gohan/Gotenks to fight together when Goku before thought Ssj3 Gotenks was enough to handle Super buu and that Gohan was enough to handle Super buu (piccolo absorbed). This just goes to show how powerful Kid buu really is.
In the end, Goku thinks both of them would at least be needed to fight him (an opponent he thought he could bring down himself), yet they chose a technique that has never worked in the past over bringing them. This just goes to show how desperate they were.

Besides, This Genki dama gathered ki to their limit so we know everyone gave every ounce of ki they could offer as shown after Kaioshin lent his and he was out of energy afterwards

also:
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”

If worse comes to worse, they can just fight again. Nothing in here says Gohan can destroy Kid buu. If he truly could, then it would have been brought up. It's completely out of their character to not mention all options capable of beating someone, especially since Goku/Vegeta are fighting geniuses.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If worse comes to worse, they can just fight again. Nothing in here says Gohan can destroy Kid buu. If he truly could, then it would have been brought up. It's completely out of their character to not mention all options capable of beating someone, especially since Goku/Vegeta are fighting geniuses.

You forget the fact that Goku & Vegeta mainly fight to entertain themselves, not to save the day. If an opponent is strong enough to be a challenge for Goku, he won't call Gohan to finish him with one blow.

[Bussani]

I wouldn't say it's illogical. It highlights the difference between Goku and Vegeta. I think the decision to let the Earthlings contribute to Boo's defeat was very in-character for Vegeta. Goku would just save the Earth without hesitation if he was able to, but Vegeta's not that kind-hearted and expects the Earthlings to at least do part of the job.

Hm, maybe I could have worded that better. What I meant was that it might not be the most logical course of action, but that isn't to say that it's out of character for them to do it anyway.

If he truly could, then it would have been brought up. It's completely out of their character to not mention all options capable of beating someone, especially since Goku/Vegeta are fighting geniuses.

But Goku did bring it up. Vegeta just dismissed it in favor of the Earthlings saving themselves for a change.

[FindKenshi]

It's kind of cool that those #DBZsubbed scanslations are still in circulation to this day... I'd figure between Viz releasing an official English version, and Kanzenshuu/DBG members shooting them down on many different forums for years now, that the community would have collectively realized they were a poor and sometimes "non" translation.

That being said, yes Kid Buu is stronger. For those who cannot grasp WHY, like I said.. my big long essay-like post on the subject is coming. I know I was supposed to have made it last weekend (or was it the week before) but quite frankly it's going to take me a LONG time to draft it all up and I'm not going to stick to any specific time table. Just rest assured it's coming soon.. when that comes then you can at least see a well thought out thesis on the subject, using nothing but manga and Strength Checker quotes, then you can decide if I'm just bat shit crazy or if I'm on to something.

[hleV]

So you need a long essay to explain why Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo, while otherwise it's pretty obvious that he's not? There's not even a statement about Pure Boo's power, besides that they had underestimated him (but even then, SS3 Goku is still presumably able to wipe Pure Boo out at full power). I personally don't see how one could logically explain Pure Boo being the superior one. Not to mention that Pure Boo being stronger than Evil Boo contradicts Gotenks and Gohan.