How would you compare Grade 3 SSJ to SSJ2?

[Mjb1985]

People are basically saying Freeza did well even though he was only 80% of Gpku so therefore pwnage means you have to be 75% and so on.

Which doesn't really work considering Vegeta vs Goku or Zarbon vs Vegeta, but I see where they are going. But yea, I think that's what is going on here.

[Bussani]

You're over analyzing.

What exactly do you believe I'm over-analysing? People's reasons for talking about the Freeza fight? I don't see how, since both Mjb and RandomGuy have explained the same thing to you. Although come to think of it, you may have missed that, since you described RandomGuy's reply as "better than the Goku vs Freeza debate" even though a) that's partly what he was basing his logic on, and b) he replied specifically to tell you why that talk was helpful.

I would say those gaps are too small with the Freeza fight taken into account. Mostly because Vegeta couldn't do ANYTHING to Cell. 75 vs 100 is what I consider the minimum for pwnage.

It [the Freeza talk] helps because the gaps between characters are the only way we have of determining how powerful the transformation is. It goes like this:

-We establish 80 vs 100 = not complete pwnage while 75 vs 100 is always shown to be complete pwnage.

I'm not over-analysing; I'm just paying attention.

[TheGmGoken]

You're over analyzing.

What exactly do you believe I'm over-analysing? People's reasons for talking about the Freeza fight? I don't see how, since both Mjb and RandomGuy have explained the same thing to you. Although come to think of it, you may have missed that, since you described RandomGuy's reply as "better than the Goku vs Freeza debate" even though a) that's partly what he was basing his logic on, and b) he replied specifically to tell you why that talk was helpful.

I would say those gaps are too small with the Freeza fight taken into account. Mostly because Vegeta couldn't do ANYTHING to Cell. 75 vs 100 is what I consider the minimum for pwnage.

It [the Freeza talk] helps because the gaps between characters are the only way we have of determining how powerful the transformation is. It goes like this:

-We establish 80 vs 100 = not complete pwnage while 75 vs 100 is always shown to be complete pwnage.

I'm not over-analysing; I'm just paying attention.

I saw and replied to both of those already =/.

[Bussani]

I saw and replied to both of those already =/.

Yes, which I specifically mentioned in my post.

since you described RandomGuy's reply as "better than the Goku vs Freeza debate"

My point was that you missed his point, and you're continuing to miss his point. How can his reply be "better than the Goku vs Freeza debate" when the reply itself was explaining the purpose of the Goku vs Freeza debate? He told you the exact same thing I did, yet you acted like we were talking about different things. In other words, you're not reading carefully enough.

[Kaboom]

...Aaaaaaanywaaaaay...

I'm already starting to slide back towards the stance I had for a while where SSj Grade 3 is moderately stronger than Super Saiyan 2. The only reason I changed from that in the first place was due to the old Trunks animanga-thing labeling "Grade 5" as the strongest form. But I think something old like that might be a bit... I don't know how to put it, outdated? By newer things like the Super Exciting Guide's data about the Super Saiyan forms. That relatively small 2x gap between SSj1 and SSj2 doesn't leave much room for things to be in the middle, while I get the impression that the old Trunks-guide-thing was treating all of the forms, "Grades" 1 through 5, as steadily progressing in the power they granted.

Even with SSjG3 being a bit more of a power boost, I guess I could be a bit of a weasel and still call SSj2 the overall best or even "strongest" stage, since is Grade 3 is so unbalanced and useless by comparison.

Now I'm left wondering what to think about "Legendary" Super Saiyan, and what to best compare it to.

[PerfectFreeza]

Now I'm left wondering what to think about "Legendary" Super Saiyan, and what to best compare it to.

I think it's comparable with Third Grade SSJ.That ''guide'' said it's similar to Third Grade SSJ.

[Kaboom]

I think it's comparable with Third Grade SSJ.That ''guide'' said it's similar to Third Grade SSJ.

Yeah, and without the speed drawbacks, to boot. Broly seems to grow in height to better accommodate all those muscles, so that could be all there is to it. Same power boost as Grade 3, but without the speed loss.

The OTHER drawbacks would certainly apply, though. Broly's power reserves seem to replenish themselves one way or another, but the form obviously still puts a HUGE strain on his body.

[TheGmGoken]

I saw and replied to both of those already =/.

Yes, which I specifically mentioned in my post.

since you described RandomGuy's reply as "better than the Goku vs Freeza debate"

My point was that you missed his point, and you're continuing to miss his point. How can his reply be "better than the Goku vs Freeza debate" when the reply itself was explaining the purpose of the Goku vs Freeza debate? He told you the exact same thing I did, yet you acted like we were talking about different things. In other words, you're not reading carefully enough.

I meant it as the way he USED IT. He explained much better then you did.

[Bussani]

He explained much better then you did.

He did, and yet you still didn't understand his point. You continued to say that the Goku vs. Freeza debate was off topic even after he'd explained to you why it wasn't.

[Duo]

I figured that it wouldn't come close to matching up against even a "Full Power Super Saiyan". I mean, look at how much good it does for Cell when he buffs out against Gohan - if he were getting the same kind of power increase as a Ssj2, Gohan probably wouldn't have been able to kick his head in so easily. That plus the general reaction that Vegeta and Trunks have regarding Goku and Gohan's power. That requires a bit of interpretation, I'll admit, but it could easily be labelled as a "we just don't know for sure".

[Mjb1985]

Didn't a guy do some numbers using a 1.25x boost for Grade 2 and a 1.75x boost for Grade 3 before? I think on the previous page? It actually looks quite good.

It's funny, you really don't need tremendous boosts to make everything work and honestly 2x for Ssj2 is indeed plenty. 4x for Ssj3 is a bit extravagant.

For example check out the 2x boost for the CG.


Ssj2 Gohan 155
SPC 150
Buff Cell 125
FP Cell 100
Ssj Gohan 77.5
Cell 75


As you can see Cell powering up to FP is a monstrous boost going from 75% power to 100%. This is reminiscent of Freeza's massive power up going from 70-100%.

Plenty of room for Power Weighted Cell to be way above Cell's FP and still way below Ssj2 Gohan. Sure Gohan being at half power isn't fun, but that isn't fun regardless of the boost.

2x is plenty to make the significant differences numerically during the CG.

Now let me try my first ever Grade 2 / 3 boost under 2x.

Grade3 Trunks 166
Perfect Cell 150
Grade 2 Vegeta 125
PC Fake Ki 120
Semi Cell FP 110
Semi Cell 100
Vegeta 100
Trunks 95

Hmm. That's a little fighter than I expected. Maybe using Grade 2 at 1.5x and Grade 3 at 2.25x would be better.

[Bussani]

Hmm. That's a little [t]ighter than I expected.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying before. It can work, so long as you're okay with small gaps making a large difference.

[Mjb1985]

I always feel like people always saying Ssj can't be a 10x boost because Kkx20 would be stronger. But you never hear about Ssj2 or Ssj3 being a smaller boost than Kkx20. I guess people feel that you can't use Kk with Ssj and in Base why would Goku choose Ssj over a superior boost. Meh I guess I answered my own question. Lol.

How do you feel about AT's quote about the Ssj boost. Many take it as Ssj being a 10x boost in his mind at least I take it as a 100x boost though. How about you B?

[dbzfan7]

SSJ has always been 50x. I don't understand the 10x idea. The one that shoud be debated is SSJ2. The boost is only double SSJ.

[TheGmGoken]

He explained much better then you did.

He did, and yet you still didn't understand his point. You continued to say that the Goku vs. Freeza debate was off topic even after he'd explained to you why it wasn't.

I AGREED to his point after he said it =/. I disagree when you said it. See the differ? I only said that to you cause the way you explained it was bad. I agree with him and didn't say the same thing cause he said it better. I think I GOT the point.

[RandomGuy96]

I always feel like people always saying Ssj can't be a 10x boost because Kkx20 would be stronger. But you never hear about Ssj2 or Ssj3 being a smaller boost than Kkx20. I guess people feel that you can't use Kk with Ssj and in Base why would Goku choose Ssj over a superior boost. Meh I guess I answered my own question. Lol.

How do you feel about AT's quote about the Ssj boost. Many take it as Ssj being a 10x boost in his mind at least I take it as a 100x boost though. How about you B?

I find myself that x10 makes no frickin sense at all. A x50 boost makes the most sense by far especially when considering 50 percent Freeza vs kaioken x20 Goku. Those two are evenly matched. Then Goku goes Super Saiyan and then plainly proves himself to be much stronger than the guy he was just barley even with. Then Freeza doubles his power, but Goku still dominates.

[Bussani]

I AGREED to his point after he said it =/. I disagree when you said it. See the differ? I only said that to you cause the way you explained it was bad. I agree with him and didn't say the same thing cause he said it better. I think I GOT the point.

Just answer me this: did his post make you realize why the Goku vs. Freeza debate was on topic?

How do you feel about AT's quote about the Ssj boost. Many take it as Ssj being a 10x boost in his mind at least I take it as a 100x boost though. How about you B?

Well, he said that the fifty-fold increased has been established, but that he drew it with the feeling that Goku was ten times what he had been up to that point. It could just be that he drew it one way, but numerically it's the other.

[Kaboom]

I think I could summarize Toriyama's comments about the "10x vs 50x" thing in just two words.

"Oh well."

The way he words it, it's almost like an admission that it turned out to be something other than what he planned or at least pictured. Which is par for the course with Dragon Ball. Super Saiyan is no more a 10x boost than Androids 19 and 20 are the supreme threats of the Androids arc.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

If Super Saiyan Grade 3 > Super Saiyan 2 in brute power is true. Then, that means Legendary Super Saiyan Broly is stronger than Super Saiyan 2, right?

[Mjb1985]

I actually have a bit of a different interpretation of Toriyama's comments regarding the Super Saiyan boost. I think he is referencing that he saw the battle as 10x as what it was previously ( IE Kkx10 Goku vs 50% Freeza ) , but that was a bit extravagant. Could someone display the quote or link me to it? I'd like to confirm if my suspicions are correct or not.

The 10x boost seems to stem from Gero's implications in the Androids Saga. Although they are pretty valid, they are not necessary.

Super Saiyan 2 on the other hand, actually does seem to fit with the story, unfortunately. Lol.

One would think that the version of Cell who fought Gohan and Goku would be somewhere around a good chunk of his power considering his respect for Goku and his blazing aura being emitted as if he were actually using some real effort to maintain the power.

Some people like to use a 4 or 5x boost but what does that make Cell then? Using only 25% of his power with an aura like that ? I don't know. While Cell's power up was massive is it really needed to be bigger than a 75-100% gap similar to Freeza's power? Probably not.

As well as Cell is able to physically move Gohan when he punches him as well. Sure Gohan can wreck him in a couple of shots but it's not like he can tank him like Semi Cell can tank 16. Which imo signifies that Semi Cell is stronger than 16 by a wider margin than Gohan was to Cell.

So all in all, I really don't see any issues with using the official multipliers considering that they do work, but I don't mind people who adjust them to their views.

You simply need to throwaway only a couple of comments to make everything work perfectly. And that ain't bad.