How strong was Dabura?

[TheGmGoken]

I like to think that Dabura was at the same level as full-power Cell, while being at the Cell that Goku fought prior to possession. Since when looking at Vegeta's power-up, it only brought his level further within the power range of the SSj2 form. And when Cell powered-up, it didn't bring him up to SSJ2 Gohan's tier, where in neither case were they able to really damage him when shown to land a clean shot.

This seems very likely IMO. I never took it as SPC as SSJ2 Gohan(Kid) was still one of the strongest at that point. Even Piccolo some-what implies it. So I have him Dabura at 100% Original Perfect Cell and maybe stronger due to his magic.

[Hugo Boss]

Ooooooooooor, it's just an error. Gohan is NOT a SSJ2, his aura, his face, his lack of lightning, his hair all scream not SSJ2. Seriously I'll provide pictures:

Spoiler:

That was highly debatable in DB-PT and the main moderator settled the debate by talked about a interview where someone (maybe Toriyama himself) explain that flaw on manga's plot. Kaboom, can you give some information about it?

[Kaboom]

That was highly debatable in DB-PT and the main moderator settled the debate by talked about a interview where someone (maybe Toriyama himself) explain that flaw on manga's plot. Kaboom, can you give some information about it?

It's not anything that I'm aware of. I don't even know what "DB-PT" means.

[Hugo Boss]

That was highly debatable in DB-PT and the main moderator settled the debate by talked about a interview where someone (maybe Toriyama himself) explain that flaw on manga's plot. Kaboom, can you give some information about it?

It's not anything that I'm aware of. I don't even know what "DB-PT" means.

It's a Portuguese forum, like Kanzenshuu. The doubt is about the source of this interview. It's about Super Saiyan 2 that Gohan displayed in Buu Saga with regular Super Saiyan art.

[TheGmGoken]

Ooooooooooor, it's just an error. Gohan is NOT a SSJ2, his aura, his face, his lack of lightning, his hair all scream not SSJ2. Seriously I'll provide pictures:

Spoiler:

That was highly debatable in DB-PT and the main moderator settled the debate by talked about a interview where someone (maybe Toriyama himself) explain that flaw on manga's plot. Kaboom, can you give some information about it?

I doubt it was Mr. Toriyama himself. May I see the interview?

[Hugo Boss]

Ooooooooooor, it's just an error. Gohan is NOT a SSJ2, his aura, his face, his lack of lightning, his hair all scream not SSJ2. Seriously I'll provide pictures:

Spoiler:

That was highly debatable in DB-PT and the main moderator settled the debate by talked about a interview where someone (maybe Toriyama himself) explain that flaw on manga's plot. Kaboom, can you give some information about it?

I doubt it was Mr. Toriyama himself. May I see the interview?

Actually I wanna see it too, I just believed that the moderator was telling the truth because he commonly settle all questions about DBZ. The Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's topics ended with a single post, I can traslate the quote if you want.

[TheGmGoken]

Translation please.

[Hugo Boss]

Spoiler:

"(...) o que aconteceu é que o Akira Toriryama se esqueceu de detalhar a transformação com a Aura coberta de raios, tal como ele referiu numa entrevista. Se o Son Gohan se transforma livremente frente ao Kibito, porque não o faria frente ao Dabura que é alguém muito mais poderoso?"

"(...) what happened is that Akira Toriryama forgot to detail the transformation with aura covered in lightnings, as he said in an interview. If Gohan turns freely against Kibito, why not do it against Dabura, someone who is much more powerful [than Kibito]?"

The main post is on the forum and I copied that sentence from the last discussion we had a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the forum is currently under maintenance, but Prince (The Administrator) will complete the final adjustments to get it ready.

[TheGmGoken]

Spoiler:

"(...) o que aconteceu é que o Akira Toriryama se esqueceu de detalhar a transformação com a Aura coberta de raios, tal como ele referiu numa entrevista. Se o Son Gohan se transforma livremente frente ao Kibito, porque não o faria frente ao Dabura que é alguém muito mais poderoso?"

"(...) what happened is that Akira Toriryama forgot to detail the transformation with aura covered in lightnings, as he said in an interview. If Gohan turns freely against Kibito, why not do it against Dabura, someone who is much more powerful [than Kibito]?"

The main post is on the forum and I copied that sentence from the last discussion we had a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the forum is currently under maintenance, but Prince (The Administrator) will complete the final adjustments to get it ready.

I don't believe that Mr. Toriyama said that, sorry. No disrespect to him as I'm sure he's an intelligent dbz fan but it seems like he was doing damage control or just wanted the thread to stop. The way he states it in very similar to how most Youtube fans say "Toriyama stated this". I truly doubt it was Mr. Toriyama who said that. I doubt it was an interview. Sorry but there's no proof of this unlike someone can provide be some. I don't think he said that.

Edit: Yeah sorry for the "wording" of his name but sorry every time y'all fix it I have to change it. Sorry but red is a bad color to look at lol. Can y'all just keep it bold and remove the color. It's less painful for the eyes ya know.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't believe that Mr. Toriyama said that sorry. No disrespect to him as I'm sure he's an intelligent dbz fan but it seems like he was doing damage control or just wanted the thread to stop. The way he states it in very similar to how most Youtube fans say "Toriyama stated this". I truly doubt it was Mr. Toriyama who said that. I doubt it was an interview. Sorry but there's no proof of this unlike someone can provide be some. I don't think he said that.

Yes, I understand it, and he succeeded, but looking at it I wanted to search for a good source and most of my doubts brought me here.

[TheGmGoken]

I don't believe that Mr. Toriyama said that sorry. No disrespect to him as I'm sure he's an intelligent dbz fan but it seems like he was doing damage control or just wanted the thread to stop. The way he states it in very similar to how most Youtube fans say "Toriyama stated this". I truly doubt it was Mr. Toriyama who said that. I doubt it was an interview. Sorry but there's no proof of this unlike someone can provide be some. I don't think he said that.

Yes, I understand it, and he succeeded, but looking at it I wanted to search for a good source and most of my doubts brought me here.

Yeah I did a quick search. Found nothing. I'm going start a thread to see if anyone else can find it.

[RandomGuy96]

Ooooooooooor, it's just an error. Gohan is NOT a SSJ2, his aura, his face, his lack of lightning, his hair all scream not SSJ2. Seriously I'll provide pictures:

His hair actually supports him being a SS2. When he was explicitly a SS, like when sparring with Gohan, he had a different hair style than when he fought Dabura (most importantly, he had only one bang), just like the one he had at the tournament. Also, the sparks are never noted to be essential to the Super Saiyan 2 form; we've seen non-SS2s with a sparking aura (Vegetto, Nappa, Cell), and in many panels (such as the fight with Cell) Super Saiyan 2s are drawn without them. Hell, we've seen SS3s drawn without the lightning aura as well (Goku during the Pure Buu fight), yet we can still tell that it's a Super Saiyan 3 by the hair. So no, this is nothing but a subjective visual comparison. Certainly not a concrete fact.

So I go by plot logic and guidebook statements. First, what does the Daiz say?

On top of having a battle power equal to Cell's, he is also skilled in magic

he fought an even battle with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

Now, just to address something: Daizenshuu 2 NEVER says that Gohan wasn't a SS2 vs Dabura. It just stated that it DEBUTED in volume 37. It didn't put the "+" sign that it did for other forms that had multiple appearances, but then again, it didn't do the same thing with Vegeta's Super Saiyan form or Gohan's ultimate form. So saying "The Daizenshuu contradicted itself on the Dabura issue" is just a lie. All it did was not put in a vague implication that wasn't consistent within the section anyway, and wasn't applied to other forms that obviously occurred in more than one volume. The ONLY official guidebook statement we have says that he was a SS2, which is consistent with the only other outright statement we got on Dabura's power, that he has the exact same battle power as Cell.

Second, let's look at the manga.

First, we have Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2 of free will at the tournament, and Kibito and Kaioshin clearly sensing him.

Then, we have him fighting Dabura. Goku tells him to get angry and release his hidden power, like when he killed Cell. Weirdly, he doesn't simply say "just transform like you easily did back at the tournament and this guy will be no problem". After that he transforms and fights Dabura. Neither Goku nor Vegeta say "Hey, what the hell, why isn't he turning Super Saiyan 2?", which you'd THINK would be a much bigger deal than him apparently being rusty from lack of training. Goku doesn't even try to defend his son when Vegeta brings up his performance against Dabura, which would be pretty easy to defend ("He's only using half his power, when he transforms he'll easily defeat Dabura"). No, apparently Gohan suddenly being unable to turn SS2 isn't a big deal, even though they all just witnessed him easily do it on a whim hours ago.

After that comes the scene with Fat Buu. Buu shows up and is not as bad as everyone makes him out to be; Gohan says "he's strong, but not so strong that there's nothing I can do" and says that he needs to access his hidden power to win. Dabura on the other hand calls Buu trash. More importantly, after Buu powers up, he two-shots Dabura, which greatly shocks Gohan. He damn near craps himself. Okay, why is he impressed? He already established that he needs to be an enraged Super Saiyan 2 to beat Initial Fat Buu, so this Initial Fat Buu is at least SS2 tier, even if you think that his "enraged" Super Saiyan 2 is only equivalent to his normal Super Saiyan 2 (since he still calls him incredibly strong and only says that he won't be completely helpless). Nothing should be changed by this; he should already know that Buu can one-shot Dabura. Yet, he apparently doesn't. Also, from a Doylist perspective, why would Buu power up here if he could already ROFLSTOMP Dabura?

Finally, Kaioshin tells Kibito that he has no idea how incredible Gohan is, even though the Gohan he's calling incredible is weaker than the one that Kibito sensed.

So, in conclusion, if Gohan was a SS:

Gohan was an idiot who gave zero fucks about his friends and mentors being murdered before his eyes, and chose not to go SS2 for no reason.

Kaioshin has short term memory loss. So does Kibito.

Goku and Vegeta are idiots.

Goku and Vegeta compare SS Gohan (teen) to enraged SS2 kid Gohan.

Goku brings up Gohan's rage boosted power from seven years ago when trying to motivate Gohan, even though said power is completely unnecessary and Gohan has already demonstrated that he can turn SS2 at will, which is apparently overkill for Dabura.

Dabura is an idiot.

Everyone forgot how to sense ki.

Dabura < SS Gohan < SS2 Gohan < Enraged SS2 Gohan =< Initial Fat Buu < Dabura

And that's why I think he was a SS2. Feel free to disagree, but I'm tired of the Daizenshuu misconception and the constant "he had no lightning, he was a SS, end of argument" excuse.

[PerfectFreeza]

It's possible, that his hair grew and change a bit in between the training and Budokai.
Not that I don't agree, but just saying.

[Kaboom]

Complex analysis of manga implications and guidebook inconsistencies are not necessary.

THIS is all that's necessary:

Spoiler:

How is Gohan drawn? Like the first one. So he was a Super Saiyan 1. It's that easy.

Toriyama is not a complex man when it comes to these things. There's a clear and distinct art difference between the two forms within the original work. There is no good reason to think he'd draw Gohan looking like one thing when he truly actually intended for him to not be that thing. The obvious trends in the art are right in front of your face, and it's all you need. Anything more than that just needlessly complicates things.

Now can we please stop bringing this inane non-discussion up over and over again? Like, forever? Please?

I'm so tired of it. So very, very tired.

[RandomGuy96]

I like how you throw out your opinion around like fact, say that I'm overcomplicating things because I'm disagreeing with your opinion, imply that I'm stupid for not agreeing with it ("It's obvious", "it's right in your face", "anything more than this is needlessly complicated"), and then state you don't want to talk about it anyway. That's the equivalent of saying "I'm right" and then sticking your fingers in your ears.

A subjective visual comparison is not enough to say that he's Super Saiyan without a doubt, as the Daizenshuu contradicts it (twice) and a lot of the dialogue makes no sense if he was only a Super Saiyan.

If you're tired of this discussion, then you don't have to take part in it.

[TheGmGoken]

It's that easy.

Spoiler:

Now can we please stop bringing this inane non-discussion up over and over again? Like, forever? Please?

I'm so tired of it. So very, very tired.

I can see it now. 1 - 4 weeks from now. Someone makes a topic saying was Gohan SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabura? Or they state he was SSJ2 in the post.

Edit: Wait a second. Wasn't it around this time that Mr. Toriyama changed Gohan's SSJ2 Design? Broly the Second Coming was made in the middle of 220 and 221. Which is around the time the manga chapters and anime episodes with Gohan vs Dabura was made.. So it might be possible he was SSJ2. I'm leaning towards SSJ. But I can understand why some will debate it.

[Kaboom]

It's not my opinion. It's Toriyama's, as expressed when he actually drew and wrote a character showing us what each form looks like. Here, I'll link it again, just to be safe.

Spoiler:

I mean, it's right there. A clear demonstration, in the original manga, showing us what Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2 look like compared to each other. The only way to make this whole Gohan debacle any easier to figure out would be for Gohan himself to be in those panels. (Hey... I think I've got me a quick Photoshop project for tomorrow.)

So again, the author consistently drew things a certain way for the entirety of the arc up to that point, and as if that wasn't enough on its own, he actually later drew and wrote a character to say, "here, look. This is what this form looks like, and this is what this other form beyond it looks like." How could anyone possibly argue against that? Why even bother trying?

So yes. As far as concerned, the facts are obvious, and these constant repetitive debates about it are just meaningless noise. Meaningless noise that I unfortunately have to read in order to moderate. I don't really have the luxury of ignoring them, though your advice about not posting in them might be a good idea.

[TheGmGoken]

It's not my opinion. It's Toriyama's, as expressed when he actually drew and wrote a character showing us what each form looks like. Here, I'll link it again, just to be safe.

Spoiler:

So again, the author consistently drew things a certain way, and as if that wasn't enough on its own, he actually later drew and wrote a character to say, "here, looky. This is what this form looks like, and this is what this other form beyond it looks like." How could anyone possibly argue against that? Why even bother?

Cause people joined the stable caused WTP.

Even through it flats out shows us the weed(Daizenshuu) makes us high and we can't realize it

[Fionordequester]

How could anyone possibly argue against that? Why even bother trying?

Because it doesn't make any sense from an in-universe perspective. Why in the world would Gohan use anything but Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, an opponent noted to be "as strong as Cell", who had just murdered Piccolo and Krillin right in front of him, and who's death would mean Piccolo and Krillin reviving. There is absolutely NO reason why he could not or would not go SSJ2. He seriously wouldn't even once try powering up, and think "Oh no...why can't I go SSJ2? Oh well...". And even if there was, don't you think Goku and Vegeta would've looked at this, and thought "huh, why isn't Gohan going SSJ2 like he did at the tournament? Doesn't he want to win?".

And besides that, Toriyama's art style was constantly evolving, and besides that, the dude has always tended to be a bit forgetful. How do we even know that he wasn't simply going back and forth about how to draw SSJ2?

[TheGmGoken]

Because it doesn't make any sense from an in-universe perspective. Why in the world would Gohan use anything but Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, an opponent noted to be "as strong as Cell", who had just murdered Piccolo and Krillin right in front of him, and who's death would mean Piccolo and Krillin reviving. There is absolutely no reason why he could not or would not go SSJ2. And besides that, Toriyama's art style was constantly evolving, and besides that, the dude has always tended to be a bit forgetful. How do we even know that he wasn't simply going back and forth about how to draw SSJ2?

Maybe Gohan needed to be angry to go SSJ2. Since he became that rusty. Him going SSJ was because he master it. But it is possible he only went SSJ2 because he angry at the Budokai Tenkaichi