Battle Of Gods Base Goku Is Weaker Than Frieza?

[Son_Gohan]

Super Saiyan was still regarded to be in a league of its own at the time, it doesn't do the story justice by putting Piccolo at such a level when there isn't a need for it; the only point where Piccolo should rightfully be at SSj level of strength is when he fuses with Kami then becomes referred to as a "Super Namekian".

Piccolo's confidence was over their chances of victory, not over his power itself; nothing establishes that he was planning on fighting the Androids alone. When it came time for the battle to ensue, Goku even tells Piccolo and Tenshinhan to stay out of it, indicating they were preparing to fight them together. I think Krillin's statement comes more from the fact that the Androids were foretold to outmatch a Super Saiyan in power, and Piccolo was beating on someone that was assumed to possess such strength. This misapprehension came from the fact they couldn't sense #20's power and happened to be a case of mistaken identity, since he wasn't the Android Trunks had warned them about.

[Darkprince410]

Darkprince410, Freeza is stronger than what he was on Namek so he should be at least equal to SSjin Goku because he was not leagues below him until his stanima started dropping, Goku was quite stronger than Trunks so no way he is less than 200,000,000 IMO

Again, I am not talking about Piccolo when he fought Android 20
When Goku, Piccolo and Gohan left Goku's home to go to the island, Piccolo says he has a bad premonition but he was confident in his power. That was when he still thought they were going to meet the same androids Trunks told them about

Krillin even says Piccolo is SSjin level and the weakest SSjin hee had felt was SSjin Trunks

The Daizenshuu establishes him as being 120,000,000 on Namek with no indicator of fatigue or his stamina having been depleted, so for all intents and purposes, that was his maximum he was able to exhibit before his stamina took a hit. There's no actual indicator that Freeza was even correct in his assumption, and it wouldn't be surprising if he wasn't given that he had overestimated his strength several times against Goku and the others in the past. He's an arrogant individual, and his boasts don't hold much weight in the grand scheme of things. Sure, it's safe to say he's stronger than he was on Namek, but to instantly put him above Ssj Goku on Namek just because of an unconfirmed statement is a stretch.

Piccolo's comment wasn't about his power, but about their overall chances of winning. He even says that in his initial question against Goku, asking him if he thought that they (the Z Senshi) had any chance of winning, and then said that he was uneasy, but still confident about their chances. This was taking into account having Goku and everyone else there after three years of training, not just his own strength.

[goku the krump dancer]

Goten and Trunks are as powerful as they are because they work off each other. Goten says they sparred a lot. That's many years of sparring, and we've seen the results of sparring between Goku and Gohan when they were in the ROSAT for LESS than a year.

Even taking that into account I highly doubt a game of "showdown" between the two kids was anything akin to some hardcore training between Goku and Gohan in the Time Chamber or any other time we see characters train/spar together.

[rereboy]

Super Saiyan was still regarded to be in a league of its own at the time, it doesn't do the story justice by putting Piccolo at such a level when there isn't a need for it; the only point where Piccolo should rightfully be at SSj level of strength is when he fuses with Kame then becomes referred to as a "Super Namekian".

Piccolo's confidence was over their chances of victory, not over his power itself; nothing establishes that he was planning on fighting the Androids alone. When it came time for the battle to ensue, Goku even tells Piccolo and Tenshinhan to stay out of it, indicating they were preparing to fight them together. I think Krillin's statement comes more from the fact that the Androids were foretold to outmatch a Super Saiyan in power, and Piccolo was beating on someone that was assumed to possess such strength. This misapprehension came from the fact they couldn't sense #20's power and happened to be a case of mistaken identity, since he wasn't the Android Trunks had warned them about.

Kamicollo was as strong as #17, who is slightly stronger than #18, who defeated SSJ Trunks with just a couple of blows, who was stronger than when he had killed Freeza. Kamicollo was definitely in a higher tier of power compared to the SSJs before they went to the ROSAT. There's probably less of a difference in power between Piccolo before the fusion and the Saiyans before ROSAT then between Kamicollo and the Saiyans before ROSAT.

[Son_Gohan]

Kamicollo was as strong as #17, who is slightly stronger than #18, who defeated SSJ Trunks with just a couple of blows, who was stronger than when he had killed Freeza. Kamicollo was definitely in a higher tier of power compared to the SSJs before they went to the ROSAT. There's probably less of a difference in power between Piccolo before the fusion and the Saiyans before ROSAT then between Kamicollo and the Saiyans before ROSAT.

The difference being there was no need for Piccolo to be at SSj level prior to fusing with Kami; only afterwards does the story demand it. Increases of such magnitude are not inconceivable when dictated by plot.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Even if Piccolo was able to reach the level of power displayed by Super Saiyans yrs back, they would still be in a league of their own, since they've also been training. Super Saiyan isn't a static level. If Piccolo reached, say, 150 million while the other Super Saiyans were way beyond that, it in no way diminishes the importance of Super Saiyan. Piccolo made a stupendous increase after training with Super Saiyan Goku--that much is a given.

[rereboy]

Kamicollo was as strong as #17, who is slightly stronger than #18, who defeated SSJ Trunks with just a couple of blows, who was stronger than when he had killed Freeza. Kamicollo was definitely in a higher tier of power compared to the SSJs before they went to the ROSAT. There's probably less of a difference in power between Piccolo before the fusion and the Saiyans before ROSAT then between Kamicollo and the Saiyans before ROSAT.

The difference being there was no need for Piccolo to be at SSj level prior to fusing with Kami; only afterwards does the story demand it. Increases of such magnitude are not inconceivable when dictated by plot.

I forgot to mention that Piccolo, before fusing, completely dominated #20 who had absorbed a Big Bang attack from SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo's suppressed power.

Considering that #20's power at that point shouldn't be all that different from #19, who sick SSJ Goku couldn't destroy before becoming too weak, Piccolo, necessarily, can't be THAT far behind the SSJs.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Except Vegeta's attack was a standard Ki blast, not a Big Bang attack. I think Piccolo is strong, but he's still dwarfed by the 3 Ssjs.

[rereboy]

Its true that it wasn't a big bang attack. I was remembering incorrectly. Still, it was an attack meant to destroy that whole area and one that even made Krillin worry about his safety and the rest of the guys, even though it wasn't aimed directly at them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

And Freeza with a BP of 530,000 destroyed an entire planet, 10 times as dense as Earth. Destroying an area isn't impressive at this point.

[rereboy]

And Freeza with a BP of 530,000 destroyed an entire planet, 10 times as dense as Earth. Destroying an area isn't impressive at this point.

Which is why I mentioned Krillin and his reaction. Areas of destruction aren't very consistent. Vegeta's Big Bang that killed #19 seemed to destroy an area even smaller than the one Vegeta meant to destroy with this attack. I just mentioned the area because it implies by itself that it wasn't a minimal attack.

[hleV]

I, too, think that people overrate pre-fusion Piccolo (and thus, the initial androids).

Which is why I mentioned Krillin and his reaction. Areas of destruction aren't very consistent. Vegeta's Big Bang that killed #19 seemed to destroy an area even smaller than the one Vegeta meant to destroy with this attack. I just mentioned the area because it implies by itself that it wasn't a minimal attack.

Destroying a bigger portion of the area would've helped reveal the enemy had he been within the range (I think that was the point). I honestly don't think that you can compare the power of ki attacks like that.

[rereboy]

I wasn't. I merely mentioned the area because that implies that it wasn't a minimal attack. Krillin's reaction is more telling.

[kuartus4]

What I don't get is how trunks can still hang with goku and vegeta, when the latter two have been training for 3 years, yet for trunks, who was weaker than yardrat goku, it has only been 6 months since his first trip back in time, meaning trunks should not be noticably stronger in the android saga than he was in the mecha frieza saga. Makes no sense since it is implied the three super saiyans are not too different from one another in power. How did trunks get as much gains in six months as goku and vegeta in three years?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He was definitely weaker than Vegeta, but was most likely stronger than the level of power Goku displayed up to that point. Since Trunks would likely be in the middle of the comparison, they all appeared to be close in power--based on Tien's POV.

Maybe he upped the intensity of his training? Or maybe after taking this trip, he needed 3 yrs to gain energy like he did after defeating the Androids of his time.

[kuartus4]

He was definitely weaker than Vegeta, but was most likely stronger than the level of power Goku displayed up to that point. Since Trunks would likely be in the middle of the comparison, they all appeared to be close in power--based on Tenshinhan's POV.

Maybe he upped the intensity of his training? Or maybe after taking this trip, he needed 3 yrs to gain energy like he did after defeating the Androids of his time.

Someone here said that trunks said it took six months to recharge the time machine after his first trip back in time.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It was stated to be 8 months by Bulma after she first completed it, but then it was later said the time machine required 3 yrs of energy to travel back into the past. Trunks just tells him that it takes a "long time" for the time machine to gain enough energy for a round trip, but that he'll come back to help in 3 yrs if he can.

So, it comes down to what you believe.

[Son_Gohan]

Even if Piccolo was able to reach the level of power displayed by Super Saiyans yrs back, they would still be in a league of their own, since they've also been training. Super Saiyan isn't a static level. If Piccolo reached, say, 150 million while the other Super Saiyans were way beyond that, it in no way diminishes the importance of Super Saiyan. Piccolo made a stupendous increase after training with Super Saiyan Goku--that much is a given.

Though emphasis was being placed on the very form itself, rather than just focusing on an individual's strength within it. The viewpoint being conveyed at the time through characters' statements was that simply having the form puts you far above those without it:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-3
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Chapter: 360 (DBZ 166), P12.5
Context: Trunks goes to check on the situation in Ginger Town
Trunks: Don’t worry, I can become a Super Saiyan. The androids are the truly fearsome ones, after all.“

The Saiyan evidently cannot reach that realm of power through sheer training in their natural state; it only becomes accessible through the transformation. So why should Piccolo get any special treatment in that regard? If he reaches SSj Goku's power on Namek from 3 years of training that already makes him strong enough to defeat Freeza. Yet Freeza's level is established to be significant not only in that arc, but as late as the Majin Buu era. It doesn't comply story-wise for Piccolo to jump up in power that fast so needlessly.

Fusing with Kami was depicted as Piccolo's version of Super Saiyan: it is accessed in a similar manner, boosted his power to a different dimension of strength, changed his Ki from its previously recognizable state, even giving him the same aura as a Super Saiyan. It basically parallels the transformation, there's no sense in him being comparable to one prior to then.

I forgot to mention that Piccolo, before fusing, completely dominated #20 who had absorbed a Big Bang attack from SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo's suppressed power.

Considering that #20's power at that point shouldn't be all that different from #19, who sick SSJ Goku couldn't destroy before becoming too weak, Piccolo, necessarily, can't be THAT far behind the SSJs.

How strong androids #19 and #20 were is its own subject of debate. All I'll say is that, #19 absorbing Goku's Super Saiyan energy then draining a substantial amount of SSj Vegeta's energy while adding it to his own, yet still getting out-powered by him doesn't suggest the pair being that strong initially.

Had Vegeta tried to destroy #20 in that instance perhaps it could be viewed as more significant, but it was just a generic Ki blast intended to level the terrain. Even Nappa could do that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

And Freeza with a BP of 530,000 destroyed an entire planet, 10 times as dense as Earth. Destroying an area isn't impressive at this point.

Which is why I mentioned Krillin and his reaction. Areas of destruction aren't very consistent. Vegeta's Big Bang that killed #19 seemed to destroy an area even smaller than the one Vegeta meant to destroy with this attack. I just mentioned the area because it implies by itself that it wasn't a minimal attack.

It's called expanding energy. How do you think these guys destroy planets?

[rereboy]

And why you are ignoring the part where I say that I agree that aren't consistent but I mentioned it only because a large area usually means that it wasn't a minimal attack...?

You are developing the habit of posting unnecessary replies to my posts. It kind of looks that you don't even read them with much attention.