"Explain why DBZ is bad."

EXBadguy · Post by **EXBadguy** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:46 am

I only agreed with a couple of your points(Death issue and Humans taking a chance), other than that, all I have to say is WHO GIVES A FUCK?!

Okay, so you give a fuck about a perfect story, but lemme tell ya something, not everyone does. Heck, most people tend to overlook the plotholes and inconsistencies, cuz they don't matter and they're not big. Most anime series have plotholes here and there but still get loved and get called good. So you mean to tell me that all the love worldwide for DBZ, all the character drawings, and DBZ Kai was for nothing? And last time I checked, DBZ Kai was rated #2 in Japan(behind One Piece) and the average age was around 10-25. I even know some people in their twenties are hyped up for the DBZ Kai Buu saga to air and I bet they think it's the worst saga and the best saga at the same time. DBZ is like some Disney movies like The Lion King, story may not be deep but to enjoy and consider good overall, even if it has minor faults. You may have a couple points, but you're no different from the rest of these anime elitists. Bragging about how proud you are not liking the plot like other people bragging about them liking better anime than them.

We all know that DBZ doesn't have the greatest plot in the world, but there's no need to come over here and spout more of your negativity. If you don't like the series, then SHUT UP AND GET OUT OF THIS FORUM! Every time I come over here it's always you saying "Inconsistency" this, "Inconsistency" that, "Plothole" this, "Plothole" that! Getting tired of your nonsense.

Hellspawn28 · Post by **Hellspawn28** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:55 am

The old DBZ movies and GT had really bad deus ex machinas, but the ones in the manga are nowhere as bad. Not to mention I seen worst in other series like Bleach

.

theawesomepossum777 · Post by **theawesomepossum777** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:20 am

There is one thing that is annoying me about this, and it is the overuse of "DBZ." DBZ, DBZ, DBZ! If this is an analysis of what makes "DBZ" so bad, then why don't you analyze the first half of the story, Dragon Ball? It seems you are talking about the anime because of you only mentioning Dragon Ball Z. When talking about the plot as a whole, you should use the manga as your basis. With the manga, you do not have to worry about two separate divisions. Also, do you watch/read any other manga and/or anime? If so, do you watch/read One Piece? I would find almost all of the same problems with that series as you would find with DB. Less powerful crewmates like Nami and Robin are given almost no important fights in turn for the other more pleasurable "plot." You know what I am talking about. Also, stakes seem to be raised when there really is no danger.There are characters in the story who are made out to be dead in the story to then be revealed how many chapters later to be actually alive.The Alabasta Arc was the worst offender of this. There might as well be Dragon Balls in One Piece. See? I can "analyze" too! Oh, and please factor art into this. With the manga format, art is just as important as the story.

Friezacooler · Post by **Friezacooler** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:28 am

Bad as in Micheal jackson's song? cause DBZ characters are bad ass

KentalSSJ6 · Post by **KentalSSJ6** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:33 am

EXBadguy wrote:I only agreed with a couple of your points(Death issue and Humans taking a chance), other than that, all I have to say is WHO GIVES A FUCK?!

Okay, so you give a fuck about a perfect story, but lemme tell ya something, not everyone does. Heck, most people tend to overlook the plotholes and inconsistencies, cuz they don't matter and they're not big. Most anime series have plotholes here and there but still get loved and get called good. So you mean to tell me that all the love worldwide for DBZ, all the character drawings, and DBZ Kai was for nothing? And last time I checked, DBZ Kai was rated #2 in Japan(behind One Piece) and the average age was around 10-25. I even know some people in their twenties are hyped up for the DBZ Kai Buu saga to air and I bet they think it's the worst saga and the best saga at the same time. DBZ is like some Disney movies like The Lion King, story may not be deep but to enjoy and consider good overall, even if it has minor faults. You may have a couple points, but you're no different from the rest of these anime elitists. Bragging about how proud you are not liking the plot like other people bragging about them liking better anime than them.

We all know that DBZ doesn't have the greatest plot in the world, but there's no need to come over here and spout more of your negativity. If you don't like the series, then SHUT UP AND GET OUT OF THIS FORUM! Every time I come over here it's always you saying "Inconsistency" this, "Inconsistency" that, "Plothole" this, "Plothole" that! Getting tired of your nonsense.

You REALLY need to calm down there dude.

samuraix123 · Post by **samuraix123** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:43 am

EXBadguy wrote:I only agreed with a couple of your points(Death issue and Humans taking a chance), other than that, all I have to say is WHO GIVES A FUCK?!

Okay, so you give a fuck about a perfect story, but lemme tell ya something, not everyone does. Heck, most people tend to overlook the plotholes and inconsistencies, cuz they don't matter and they're not big. Most anime series have plotholes here and there but still get loved and get called good. So you mean to tell me that all the love worldwide for DBZ, all the character drawings, and DBZ Kai was for nothing? And last time I checked, DBZ Kai was rated #2 in Japan(behind One Piece) and the average age was around 10-25. I even know some people in their twenties are hyped up for the DBZ Kai Buu saga to air and I bet they think it's the worst saga and the best saga at the same time. DBZ is like some Disney movies like The Lion King, story may not be deep but to enjoy and consider good overall, even if it has minor faults. You may have a couple points, but you're no different from the rest of these anime elitists. Bragging about how proud you are not liking the plot like other people bragging about them liking better anime than them.

We all know that DBZ doesn't have the greatest plot in the world, but there's no need to come over here and spout more of your negativity. If you don't like the series, then SHUT UP AND GET OUT OF THIS FORUM! Every time I come over here it's always you saying "Inconsistency" this, "Inconsistency" that, "Plothole" this, "Plothole" that! Getting tired of your nonsense.

Whoa there buddy!

No need to get that upset because all it'll do is get you a strike against your account. I honestly believe that ''For him'' He's being intellectually honest with himself. He admitted that he likes the show but sees the flaws within it and the writing. BUT! I know the real purpose of this topic as I posted 1 page back. It's all about getting a rise out of people...and it seems to be working.

I don't believe for a second that people wanted him to create a topic to destroy their favorite series. that wouldn't make sense. just don't let it get to ya.

Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:43 am

EXBadguy wrote:I only agreed with a couple of your points(Death issue and Humans taking a chance), other than that, all I have to say is WHO GIVES A FUCK?!

Okay, so you give a fuck about a perfect story, but lemme tell ya something, not everyone does. Heck, most people tend to overlook the plotholes and inconsistencies, cuz they don't matter and they're not big. Most anime series have plotholes here and there but still get loved and get called good. So you mean to tell me that all the love worldwide for DBZ, all the character drawings, and DBZ Kai was for nothing? And last time I checked, DBZ Kai was rated #2 in Japan(behind One Piece) and the average age was around 10-25. I even know some people in their twenties are hyped up for the DBZ Kai Buu saga to air and I bet they think it's the worst saga and the best saga at the same time. DBZ is like some Disney movies like The Lion King, story may not be deep but to enjoy and consider good overall, even if it has minor faults. You may have a couple points, but you're no different from the rest of these anime elitists. Bragging about how proud you are not liking the plot like other people bragging about them liking better anime than them.

We all know that DBZ doesn't have the greatest plot in the world, but there's no need to come over here and spout more of your negativity. If you don't like the series, then SHUT UP AND GET OUT OF THIS FORUM! Every time I come over here it's always you saying "Inconsistency" this, "Inconsistency" that, "Plothole" this, "Plothole" that! Getting tired of your nonsense.

This is NOT the proper way to address someone you disagree with. Whether you feel there's value in their opinion or not, you have no authority to tell them they don't belong here. Take a chill pill, please. This thread has avoided being hostile so far and I don't want to start dishing out account strikes.

EXBadguy · Post by **EXBadguy** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:47 am

Alright, alright. I apologize. Didn't mean to go that crazy here. But in all seriousness, thatdbzguy, if you honestly don't like the series, why are you here? If you honestly don't know why you like the series, then you better find your answer, quick.

Gaffer Tape · Post by **Gaffer Tape** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 am

Yeesh. Reading some of the responses to this thread has made me very afraid to continue Dragon Ball Dissection.

I really want to defend my love of Dragon Ball, but when I keep seeing responses like, "You need to turn off your brain to enjoy it"... from those DEFENDING it, it makes me wonder if I should bother. Honestly? I mean, you don't need to go around burning out your brain cells trying to find the allegories to Tsarist Russia in Eureka's Castle, but if you can't think of a better defense than to say "don't think about it", then, sheesh, aren't you just proving thatdbzguy's point? I'm of the mind (no pun intended) that you should never not be thinking. Even in something as simple as Dragon Ball, you should still be thinking. And if inconsistencies and logical leaps are so bad in Dragon Ball that it requires you to shut off your brain to get through it, then is it worth defending? Hell, for all of its faults, even I don't think that's necessary. If it was, I wouldn't enjoy it. We're creative folk. Surely we can come up with actual merits for Dragon Ball (because there are many) to counter these alleged faults rather than either telling him to get out or saying, "Yeah. But so what?"

Now, if I'm not mistaken, I do recall thatdbzfan saying that he thought the earlier parts were better, and that it's only the Z era that rankles him so. Maybe I'm misremembering, but if that's the case... so he seems to like one part of a franchise better than others. What's wrong with that? I too think the quality of the series took something of a dive towards the end, and the majority of the problems he's referring to regarding plot holes, tonal inconsistencies, poor character usage, and repetitive stories can be found there. Not to say I think it's worthless, but it's not uncommon for people to think a series has either "jumped the shark" or "grown the beard." From Star Trek reviewers I watch, Confused Matthew loves the majority of Deep Space Nine but thought the final season was garbage with deus ex machinas and contrived plot twists out the wazoo. SFDebris loves the majority of The Next Generation but thought the first season was an excessively preachy and bland knockoff of the original series. I think the J.J. Abrams films are empty and vacuous pieces of crap. Most people hate Enterprise. So, yeah. Even fans of a franchise can and often do think large portions of it are crap. Then again, if I'm wrong in remembering that he likes the earlier parts better, then please dismiss this paragraph.

But like Mike said earlier, it's fascinating to think about a possible disconnect between good storytelling and our love for Dragon Ball. Let's explore that. What genuine merits does the series have that keep it endearing? Or do other people see us the same way we see fans of Michael Bay films? This is really good stuff to explore. Let's not ruin it by getting defensive and taking it all personally.

Kid Buu · Post by **Kid Buu** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:05 am

See I agree with Gaffer Tape; I really like the series until Namek. The Cell and Buu arc have their moments, but overall did not really age well for me. Even Namek starts to have a few problems once Goku shows up. Doesn't mean I hate the franchise.

Dalesy · Post by **Dalesy** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:06 am

As someone who does actually think there's value in labeling things as "objectively" good or bad, I couldn't disagree more about how you're approaching grading the series.

The first thing you need to realize is that there's no such thing as true objectivity in anything. This is a show made by humans, and perceived by humans, and we are subjective creatures. The closest we can get to objectivity is to aggregate the critique of those who understand the series and have approached it in a thoughtful way (taking into account the creator's intent and the standard it enters in its medium, not letting personal taste affect the critique beyond reason, etc).

It's plain to see that the vast majority of people who have watched or read Dragon Ball and have a vocal opinion on it seem to think it's at least okay as a series. Most people recognize its flaws and can accept that there are a number of issues with the series. However, it seems that most also agree that there's more good than bad. Taking into account the creator's intentions (as you should in a thoughtful critique), DB accomplishes pretty much everything it sets out to do. It's not attempting social commentary. It's not attempting to set a new standard in writing or acting. It's simply attempting to be entertaining, which most critics and informed viewers seem to agree that it is. The plot has its low moments, but it also has plenty of highs to balance them out. The acting isn't always deserving of an award, but it does a good enough job to complement the art and story nicely.

Despite what you may personally believe, the show is not the subject of ridicule by the average intelligent viewer. It wouldn't be so widely beloved if everyone with a thought in their head could see that it was garbage, as you seem to purport. At least from what I've seen, it's regarded as a pretty good series for what it is. It does the job required of it by its intentions and medium.

Now, this isn't to say that the show is good on a truly objective level. However, if we only concerned ourselves with true objectivity, we'd know absolutely nothing about anything. The only way to approach objectivity is to survey those who have a meaningful input. It's not truly objective, but collecting the predominant opinion is as close as we'll come. And sorry to say it, you're not of the predominant opinion.

EXBadguy · Post by **EXBadguy** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:08 am

Kid Buu wrote:See I agree with Gaffer Tape; I really like the series until Namek. The Cell and Buu arc have their moments, but overall did not really age well for me. Even Namek starts to have a few problems once Goku shows up. Doesn't mean I hate the franchise.

I have to ask though, what is the thing the makes the the Namek/Frieza saga the best. I can see some reasons, but what is the real reason why it's highly rated.

Saiga · Post by **Saiga** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:09 am

@GafferTape Agreed completely on the first point/paragraph, that's been really bugging me actually. I didn't know what to say about it, but you put it so well.

Onto the second, though... while he hasn't said much about the earlier parts of the story, it does appear that he likes it more than "Z". But that's not what he's talking about, and that's not what the problem is. Lots of people prefer the earlier story, especially around these parts, so I don't think people are going to get ganged up on for that. The problem is that he's pushing forward this idea that Dragon Ball Z is objectively bad, and telling people to "open their eyes" - he'll accept people enjoying it, but not them finding it good:

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

Kid Buu · Post by **Kid Buu** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:13 am

EXBadguy wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:See I agree with Gaffer Tape; I really like the series until Namek. The Cell and Buu arc have their moments, but overall did not really age well for me. Even Namek starts to have a few problems once Goku shows up. Doesn't mean I hate the franchise.
I have to ask though, what is the thing the makes the the Namek/Freeza saga the best. I can see some reasons, but what is the real reason why it's highly rated.

There's just so much tension in the beginning. We've got three parties (Kuririn, Vegeta, Freeza) who all have the same objective. The characters actually have to be smart here as they know they are outclassed; which is something the Cell and Buu arcs lack a lot of the time. However; it has its fair share of problems. The first is the shoving of Goku in the spotlight when Vegeta worked fine as protagonist. I know its Goku's series, but seeing TWO "Wait for Goku" matches felt really dull. In addtion; the near death power-up felt like a cheap plot device to boost characters powers.

theawesomepossum777 · Post by **theawesomepossum777** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:14 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Yeesh. Reading some of the responses to this thread has made me very afraid to continue Dragon Ball Dissection.

I really want to defend my love of Dragon Ball, but when I keep seeing responses like, "You need to turn off your brain to enjoy it"... from those DEFENDING it, it makes me wonder if I should bother. Honestly? I mean, you don't need to go around burning out your brain cells trying to find the allegories to Tsarist Russia in Eureka's Castle, but if you can't think of a better defense than to say "don't think about it", then, sheesh, aren't you just proving thatdbzguy's point? I'm of the mind (no pun intended) that you should never not be thinking. Even in something as simple as Dragon Ball, you should still be thinking. And if inconsistencies and logical leaps are so bad in Dragon Ball that it requires you to shut off your brain to get through it, then is it worth defending? Hell, for all of its faults, even I don't think that's necessary. If it was, I wouldn't enjoy it. We're creative folk. Surely we can come up with actual merits for Dragon Ball (because there are many) to counter these alleged faults rather than either telling him to get out or saying, "Yeah. But so what?"

Now, if I'm not mistaken, I do recall thatdbzfan saying that he thought the earlier parts were better, and that it's only the Z era that rankles him so. Maybe I'm misremembering, but if that's the case... so he seems to like one part of a franchise better than others. What's wrong with that? I too think the quality of the series took something of a dive towards the end, and the majority of the problems he's referring to regarding plot holes, tonal inconsistencies, poor character usage, and repetitive stories can be found there. Not to say I think it's worthless, but it's not uncommon for people to think a series has either "jumped the shark" or "grown the beard." From Star Trek reviewers I watch, Confused Matthew loves the majority of Deep Space Nine but thought the final season was garbage with deus ex machinas and contrived plot twists out the wazoo. SFDebris loves the majority of The Next Generation but thought the first season was an excessively preachy and bland knockoff of the original series. I think the J.J. Abrams films are empty and vacuous pieces of crap. Most people hate Enterprise. So, yeah. Even fans of a franchise can and often do think large portions of it are crap. Then again, if I'm wrong in remembering that he likes the earlier parts better, then please dismiss this paragraph.

But like Mike said earlier, it's fascinating to think about a possible disconnect between good storytelling and our love for Dragon Ball. Let's explore that. What genuine merits does the series have that keep it endearing? Or do other people see us the same way we see fans of Michael Bay films? This is really good stuff to explore. Let's not ruin it by getting defensive and taking it all personally.

It is just that he keeps on only mentioning the Z-portion of the series as its own thing is what is bothering me. He is likely basing pacing problems on the anime since the manga is not half as bad in terms of that. I like your Star Trek analogy a lot because it is so true in comparison to Dragon Ball! I think the first arc of Dragon Ball is meh. The 21st Budokai is great for its gags. Most of the Red Ribbon Army arc is good. The 22nd Budokai is the best budokai overall for me. The Piccolo Daimao is very different (in a good way) compared to every arc before it in my opinion. The 23rd Budokai is only good for its art and fight choreography in my opinion. I did not even scratch the more popular portion of the story, and I had varying opinions on each arc. Don't be afraid to continue Dragon Ball Dissection!

Just don't be surprised if I debate you on various plot points in the series.

Seriously, though, I don't try to be a fanboy of the series. I think we are all a little too close-minded in opinions relating to the series.

Friezacooler · Post by **Friezacooler** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:16 am

TS, those aren't good points to criticize dragon ball Z for at all. The show is self explanatory your argument is nothing but flawed, characters make mistakes in reality so don't be surprised if characters infiction make mistakes too as nothing is perfect, Cell had to experience that the hard way. nuff said.

EXBadguy · Post by **EXBadguy** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:19 am

Kid Buu wrote:
EXBadguy wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:See I agree with Gaffer Tape; I really like the series until Namek. The Cell and Buu arc have their moments, but overall did not really age well for me. Even Namek starts to have a few problems once Goku shows up. Doesn't mean I hate the franchise.
I have to ask though, what is the thing the makes the the Namek/Freeza saga the best. I can see some reasons, but what is the real reason why it's highly rated.
There's just so much tension in the beginning. We've got three parties (Kuririn, Vegeta, Freeza) who all have the same objective. The characters actually have to be smart here as they know they are outclassed; which is something the Cell and Buu arcs lack a lot of the time. However; it has its fair share of problems. The first is the shoving of Goku in the spotlight when Vegeta worked fine as protagonist. I know its Goku's series, but seeing TWO "Wait for Goku" matches felt really dull. In addtion; the near death power-up felt like a cheap plot device to boost characters powers.

Which is honestly one of the reasons why I think the Cell Saga is the best because Gohan took over, stepping up from a whiny kid to a powerful warrior.

Friezacooler · Post by **Friezacooler** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:32 am

Dragonball >> DBZ Frieza Saga >> Saiyan Saga >> Andriod Saga >> Cell Saga >> last half of Buu saga >> First half of Buu saga>> last half of GT >> BOG >> First half of GT.

KentalSSJ6 · Post by **KentalSSJ6** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:36 am

Friezacooler wrote:Dragonball >> DBZ Freeza Saga >> Saiyan Saga >> Andriod Saga >> Cell Saga >> last half of Buu saga >> First half of Buu saga>> last half of GT >> BOG >> First half of GT.

Thats really not helping anything.

You just listed your preferences and not how or why DBZ is bad.

theawesomepossum777 · Post by **theawesomepossum777** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:55 am

EXBadguy wrote:Which is honestly one of the reasons why I think the Cell Saga is the best because Gohan took over, stepping up from a whiny kid to a powerful warrior.

Except Gohan's change was not built up to at all until he entered the RoSaT. Let us not mention the awful time travel subplot that Toriyama wrought onto himself with Trunks. Time travel was never meant to be written in the haphazard way Toriyama writes. It's like when a souflee can explode in your face if you did not read the whole recipe from beforehand. That is how Toriyama writes, and it did not mix well. Finally, the artificial humans and Cell are the most boring "villians" in the manga in my opinion. The Cell
arc is my second-to-least favorite arc in the series. My true least favorite is the Boo arc.
However, that is my subjective view on the last two arcs. Someone could now refute my points; contributing their own subjective views on those arcs. That is how subjectivity works. What I do not get is that the OP is only viewing "DBZ" objectively. I think DB is a great series overall in my subjective view. I enjoy it, and I think it is great. It cannot be objectively a bad series to move on with. If it was, why does it get new fans, young and old, every year? AjayLikesGaming recently posted a thread about a newcomer's experience so far of the Z-portion of the series with Dragon Ball Z Kai. This new fan's reception is positive so far. That person's opinion certainly was not based on nostalgia because of her being a newcomer essentially.

That is all I am going add to this topic. Good night!

Kanzenshuu

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