New Animation VS Old Animation

[JulieYBM]

Is it possible to animate 20-minute worth of a Dragon Ball episode with 3,500 cels, though? 24 cels in total is equivalent to one second worth of footage. A episode of Dragon Ball only needed 28,800 cels of drawings to produce it.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding by your statement, JulieYBM.

Oh, it very much is. Remember, the average budget of a TV animated episode is $100,000-300,000. This is how the money is spent (rookie key animators make $40-ish USD a cut/shot and tweeners make about $2-ish USD a drawing). Most television episodes, at least for longer-running titles, use about three-to-four thousand drawings an episode. Toei Animation keeps their TV episodes strictly to about three thousand drawings these days. Dragon Ball used about 3,500 drawings, Sailor Moon about 2,500, and Slam Dunk about 3,000. Angel Beats episode #1 used ten thousand drawings, but Shin Seiki Evangelion used only seven hundred. Conversely, Kan'nagi episode #1 used six thousand drawings, episode #2 used twelve thousand drawings due to Animation Supervisor Numata Seiya irresponsibly drawing forcing the episode to use too many drawings (the episode director even badmouthed Numata on the audio commentary, although it's the episode director's job to watch the budget). Most episodes of said series only used four-to-five thousand drawings. Episode #19 of Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist used ten thousand drawings, no doubt due to Kameda Yoshimichi's drawing the key animation and in-between animation for the scene where Roy burns a certain someone to death. For the first six or so minutes of Naruto Shippuuden #167 Yamashita Shingo drew 5,500 drawings.

[KentalSSJ6]

What I would give to see Yutaka Nakamura animate some Dragonball...

[Attitudefan]

What animation studios like to do today is filter the heck out of their footages so it doesn't look so 'clean'. They add lots of gradients that hide the lines and blur filters that give it a more organic look. If you watch anime from the early 2000s, you see that those filters are not present and the animation looks kind of empty and lifeless. Lots of people have that complaint about early digital anime. However, they learned from their mistakes and are able to hide the cleanliness of digital by filtering it to hell! See Steins;Gate for a good example. I do not hate the animation, lots of it looks great, but old animation has a nice charm and doesn't hide anything. Some of the best animation is from the 80's and 90's! Princess Monoke has some of the best animation I have ever seen

Most higher-budget non-toei anime look really good in this age. Where as Toei's work seems to get worse as age goes by. I havent seen GOOD DBZ animation since Budokai 2's opening.

I don't disagree with you at all. Animation looks fantastic these days, but old animation does have a charm to it and a very distinct style dissimilar to what is produced today.

What I would give to see Yutaka Nakamura animate some Dragonball...

That is why some really well produced animation today looks freaking awesome. I feel that much of the time, even in films, that animation companies still don't use the digital medium at its max potential. So much latent power, especially with talented animators and a good budget.

Toei's current products look awful when compared to some really high budgeted animation. I mean, what I love about Attack on Titan is how it looks so distinct and it doesn't look flat. That is one show that went all out and then some with their animation for a TV serial show.

[B]

Toei's current products look awful when compared to some really high budgeted animation. I mean, what I love about Attack on Titan is how it looks so distinct and it doesn't look flat. That is one show that went all out and then some with their animation for a TV serial show.

I'm not gonna defend Toei being cheap, because they are, but Attack on Titan, was, correct me if I'm wrong, planned for only 20-something episodes. It's super popular, and will most likely get another series, but for right now, that's it. Dragon Ball had no finite set end date. The plan was to keep it in perpetual motion until it stopped making money... and that was nine years.

Basically, a show that knows it's only going to produce so many episodes can balance a budget accordingly, and is going to look better than something that's made to fill air time.

EDIT: More good examples; FMA and SOUL EATER. Capped from the get-go at 50~ episodes.

[JulieYBM]

Long-running shows are still planned ahead of time. Back in fall I recall Date Hayato saying everything for Naruto Shippuuden was planned through the summer already. The problem is that these studios know nobody is going to want to buy a long-running series on home video. A late-night series that runs for three or six months is much more likely to be bought by Otaku on home video, so the production values are higher to match fan standards.

Shingeki no Kyojin: Attack on Titan was poorly planned, so much so that many corrections were made to the home videos. Wit Studio is a small studio and the series began airing a season too early. Episodes #4-5 aired severely unfinished or were delayed on numerous stations. Episode Director Tachikawa Yuzuru said he only had one month to work on episode #7. Tachikawa said "lack of animators and a poor schedule. He had only one month to work on his episode.". Look at the credits for the series. Episode #11 had six Animation Supervisors, five Animation Supervisor Assistants, Asano Kyouji as Chief Animation Supervisor and Ebara Yasuyuki as Action Animation Supervisor. For episode #19 WIT outsourced the episode to Daume, and Daume outsourced the episode to Wanpack.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this is my previous post, but a higher number of drawings is not the only thing that matters. After all, American cartoons usually have 10,000+ drawings an episode but the timing of the animation and other elements are bad. When people praise an animator, like Nakamura Yutaka or Matsumoto Norio, what they are praising is their sense of timing. The timing of the drawings decides whether something looks good or not. For American cartoons the timing is done by Timing Directors in America. In Japanese cartoons the key animators handle their own timing and layouts, working off of the storyboard and any dialogue they have had with the episode director. The most influential man in Japanese animation is still Kanada Yoshinori. Although Kanada has passed away his experimentations with timing and the positions he drew characters in completely changed the animation industry in Japan. Many action animators are influenced by his work, including Hisada Kazuya of Dragon Ball Z fame. The Kanada-style involves using timing to create motion while only using a few drawings.

EDIT 2: Fixed a typo.

[KentalSSJ6]

Another animator id love to see work on Dragonball is Takahiro Shikama, who does a lot of Sword Art Online.

[Scarz]

I would add my own two cents but after reading through most of this thread, a lot of the points I wanted to make has already been said. "Old animation = good, new animation = stiff and ungodly shiny"

I guess I can just save some of the awesome gifs that has been posted so far!

[Looneygamemaster]

JulieYBM: If you're going to make the claim that "Japanese animation is better directed than American animation" (something I heavily disagree with), you really should not be using DBZ as an example.

[KentalSSJ6]

I would add my own two cents but after reading through most of this thread, a lot of the points I wanted to make has already been said. "Old animation = good, new animation = stiff and ungodly shiny"

I guess I can just save some of the awesome gifs that has been posted so far!

Welcome to animation appreciation heaven - http://sakuga.yshi.org/

[JulieYBM]

Shikama is a beast. His effects animation applied to Dragon Ball would be gorgeous. Shikama also has a fine handle on the sketch-style that has been popular for a few years now.



Another recent star who I think would be a fine fit for our fair franchise is Hamaguchi Akira. Hamaguchi has been the go-to guy for Magi.



Hamaguchi's hand-to-hand combat is gorgeous here. The choreography is superb, but the timing of the animation creates a great sense of watching a Jackie Chan film in some respects. Hamaguchi's work is graceful while bringing a lovely weight to the forefront. His work with the movement of the hair is also a sight to behold.

JulieYBM: If you're going to make the claim that "Japanese animation is better directed than American animation" (something I heavily disagree with), you really should not be using DBZ as an example.

I have no problem saying Dragon Ball Z's use of 3,500 drawings is a lot better than 99% of Warner Bros. television or direct-to-video use of 10,000 and higher. I also have no problem saying plenty of modern Japanese cartoons completely blow Dragon Ball Z out of the water.

[Scarz]

I would add my own two cents but after reading through most of this thread, a lot of the points I wanted to make has already been said. "Old animation = good, new animation = stiff and ungodly shiny"

I guess I can just save some of the awesome gifs that has been posted so far!

Welcome to animation appreciation heaven - http://sakuga.yshi.org/

How did I not know about this?!

[Looneygamemaster]

I have no problem saying Dragon Ball Z's use of 3,500 drawings is a lot better than 99% of Warner Bros. television or direct-to-video use of 10,000 and higher.

There's where we disagree then. In terms of lighting, editing, pacing and gelling with the score, Warner's stuff is on a level of directorial sophistication that DBZ isn't even aware of.

[Captain-Sora]

JulieYBM: If you're going to make the claim that "Japanese animation is better directed than American animation" (something I heavily disagree with), you really should not be using DBZ as an example.

I assume he's making a comparison strictly between television shows, in which case it varies. Obviously, classic and high-budget animation for theatrical features from the likes of Disney and such are obviously in a whole other league, with outstanding fluidity, perfect timing, a real sense of weight and form, and complex character "acting" and gestures.

[JulieYBM]

JulieYBM: If you're going to make the claim that "Japanese animation is better directed than American animation" (something I heavily disagree with), you really should not be using DBZ as an example.

I assume he's making a comparison strictly between television shows, in which case it varies. Obviously, classic and high-budget animation for theatrical features from the likes of Disney and such are obviously in a whole other league, with outstanding fluidity, perfect timing, a real sense of weight and form, and complex character "acting" and gestures.

Eh...I don't know about that. I (myself, me, personally) can't recall a big Disney film ever matching the work of what we see in the 2009 Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist or the 2011 film. When I think of Kameda Yoshimichi's work in that series I feel like I'm reliving the wrathful anger of Al Pacino or another high-caliber actor. I say it a lot, but it's not the number of drawings, but the manner in which they are used. Sometimes still scenes with little movement pack far punch due to the manner in which a cut is framed or drawn. Idol M@aster episode #18 from episode director Yokoyama Akitoshi features limited movement outside of the dancing scenes, but the layouts are so gorgeously laid out that the episode has a level of storytelling all unto itself. This is inverse to what makes a lot of Dragon Ball episodes so good. While the use of the limited number of drawings is sharp, the use of music, sound effects, and acting produce the same level of excitement a Yokoyama directed episode of any series gives me. Disney films to me feel more like they're not expressing anything, they're just bebopping around for kids with short attention spans. Movement is good, but movement that means something is even better.

[KentalSSJ6]

2-D animation of Frozen.



*Sigh* What could have been...

[DarkPrince_92]

2-D animation of Frozen.



*Sigh* What could have been...

Right?! Also I didn't bother with this one, but I was sad when Disney dropped the 2D department.

[Ajay]

*Sigh* What could have been...

Right?! Also I didn't bother with this one, but I was sad when Disney dropped the 2D department.

Frozen is a masterpiece as is. There's plenty of merit to 3D animation and having it made in 2D would add nothing to it aside from perhaps some aimless nostalgia factor.

[Captain-Sora]

Disney films to me feel more like they're not expressing anything, they're just bebopping around for kids with short attention spans. Movement is good, but movement that means something is even better.

A lot of that motion does mean something, though. All these subtle yet complex gestures are meant to give a sense of life and depth to the character's actions, and really show what they're actually thinking. The amount of thought put into giving these characters' distinct mannerisms and making sure every small move has a point to it is astronomical. It ultimately plays a lot in the overall presentation and adds a good deal of character and personality to a scene, even though we don't realize it. Something as simple as a conversation between two characters can lose a lot of impact when rendered much more limited and basic. That's not to say you can't get the same point across(most of the time), but that small hint of reality and extra effort goes a very long way into make said conversation that much more compelling and evocative, and that's what makes the animation of those high profile films all the more special. Films like Disney's Tarzan and especially Dreamworks' Spirit, both of which rely a lot of character animation without dialogue, wouldn't have worked nearly as well if they had been approached with a more minimalistic style.

When I think of a film that utilizes full character motion that wasn't nearly as effective as it could have been, it would be Akira. As huge as that film was for anime, and how grand and detailed it all looked, a lot of the actual character animation itself was choppy, and comprised of so much random jerking and flailing about. It was very inconsistent. Outside of any scene where characters are supposed to be restrained and not too active, the characters rarely actually moved like real people. It's understandable, seeing as it was a rare instance of a Japanese feature using full animation and they probably weren't very experienced with such a style, but regarding the topic at hand about whether there is a point or not to all that complex animation Disney goes out of their way to pull off, I'd say Akira serves as a better example of not actually taking advantage of the style used, whereas every bit of movement a Disney film does matter in the grand scheme of things.

[GarrettCRW]

EDIT: I forgot to mention this is my previous post, but a higher number of drawings is not the only thing that matters. After all, American cartoons usually have 10,000+ drawings an episode but the timing of the animation and other elements are bad. When people praise an animator, like Nakamura Yutaka or Matsumoto Norio, what they are praising is their sense of timing. The timing of the drawings decides whether something looks good or not. For American cartoons the timing is done by Timing Directors in America.

America currently uses Timing Directors because nobody has animated a TV cartoon in the US in its entirety since Filmation shut its doors (read: was forced to shut down by those scumbags from L'Oreal) TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO. A lot of these guys have experience as animators and directors. (One example I point to is Marsh Lamore, who was a timing director for Disney throughout the '90s and early 2000s, but spent the prior two-plus decades as an animator and director at Filmation.) The result is that a lot of our cartoons are animated by piss-poor talent, even more so now that Toei and TMS don't provide outsourcing for US studios like they did in the '80s and '90s. The inaction that DBZ is a bit unfairly known for in some circles is also one of the little cheats that brings down the cel count per episode (the rather excessively long openings, end credits, recaps, and NEPs being some of the bigger cheats IMO).

[JulieYBM]

EDIT: I forgot to mention this is my previous post, but a higher number of drawings is not the only thing that matters. After all, American cartoons usually have 10,000+ drawings an episode but the timing of the animation and other elements are bad. When people praise an animator, like Nakamura Yutaka or Matsumoto Norio, what they are praising is their sense of timing. The timing of the drawings decides whether something looks good or not. For American cartoons the timing is done by Timing Directors in America.

America currently uses Timing Directors because nobody has animated a TV cartoon in the US in its entirety since Filmation shut its doors (read: was forced to shut down by those scumbags from L'Oreal) TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO. A lot of these guys have experience as animators and directors. (One example I point to is Marsh Lamore, who was a timing director for Disney throughout the '90s and early 2000s, but spent the prior two-plus decades as an animator and director at Filmation.) The result is that a lot of our cartoons are animated by piss-poor talent, even more so now that Toei and TMS don't provide outsourcing for US studios like they did in the '80s and '90s.

One would kind of expect that the Timing Directors have some level of experience as actual animators, but I think the role's presence is a bit insulting. The key animators at the South Korean studios are the ones doing the actual animation, they ought to be deciding and playing with the animation. Even if their timing isn't the best it would still be better than the Timing Directors in America who have become all too stagnant in their techniques and do not even bother to collaborate with the key animators to see what kind of exciting movement they can create. This is my American patriotism speaking, but what baffles me the most is that episodes have nine months for production and $300,000-500,000 an episode yet they move or look no better than an episode with $100,000 budget. It really surprises me that we're spending that much on our animation with so little in results. It's not like the children watching will notice if the cel count for animation drops. I think it'd be cool to see the budgets slashed so we could try giving each show the occasional 'in-house' episode. Well, assuming there's enough animators left at WBA...

The inaction that DBZ is a bit unfairly known for in some circles is also one of the little cheats that brings down the cel count per episode (the rather excessively long openings, end credits, recaps, and NEPs being some of the bigger cheats IMO).

I don't see what's wrong with that if it means hitting the high-points right (which Seigasha, early Last House and Studio Cockpit managed on Dragon Ball Z). If you can stop a nuclear detonation with chewed bubblegum and a paper clip I don't see how that is anything to look down on.