Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

[RandomGuy96]

Abo and Kado are stronger than 1st form Freeza, and are nowhere near 100% Freeza. That's the form Tarble mentally pictures when talking about their strength. Though I wonder exactly how he knew that. He can't sense ki, and his scouter should have broke.

Perhaps he was speaking in a vague "there's no way anyone could ever hope to defeat him/them!" sense, rather than in terms of raw numbers?

I think the statement is too specific for that to be the case. He could've just said "they used to be as strong as the Ginyus, and now they've become even stronger, and no one can stop them!" rather than "they used to be ranked with the Ginyus, but now they've become even stronger than Freeza!".

[gojirason]

I just read through some Manga scans, it appears only ONE of the Kai's weakened Buu,

I know that's what the Viz says, but Herms has gone through this, that's not what the original says, it's rather vague because there's no true plural in Japanese—which I know from my personal experience as true too.

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The dub contradicting the Viz just goes to show how ambiguous the statement is.
Again I have to ask, if Kaioshin and Kibito can't be used to give Buu energy, Buu literally CANNOT absorb Vegetto, and Dai Kaioshin made him weaker, why is South Kaioshin the black sheep against all indication that it's just a Kaioshin thing (and also in terms of just making Buu way stronger than he should be for how strong Kaioshins are given the Z Sword thing)? Especially now that it's absolutely confirmed they have a different type of ki? Setting up South Kaioshin to be such a huge outlier in any area, let alone two despite any indication of the sort makes the opposite of sense.

Think of it this way. If you were to absorb someone and noticed it made you weaker, WOULD you make the SAME mistake TWICE by going on absorbing yet another Kai making you even weaker?? There's no logic in this. Also, Buu clearly has a mastered Ki sensing ability. He zapped himself exactly where Goku and Vegeta were located after going on a multi planet rampage across the galaxy. So please don't tell me he can't tell his own power from a previous point in time.

Buu wasn't purely motivated by power. He acquired a heart and a mind out of it.
Again, Evil Buu was not panicking that he would lose power, and Goku and Vegeta noted that very specifically. He explicitly freaked out because "I won't be "me" anymore!", which was almost definitely lead up to "“H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”". He was going to lose his sense of identity and knowledge. His love of candy, his cunning, his ability to speak and think and feel, his acquired memories (which we know he has from his mental attacks at Gohan).

Would you surrender those for power? Everything you are and love and think?

What he actually remembers if anything from being from Pure Buu is questionable at best, but whether it's genuine memory, just an idea of what it was like like some sort of severe alcohol impaired memory, or a complete void is unknown. If his motivation was purely power he would just spit out Dai Kaioshin at least and he didn't. He liked himself, and that's not really something to blame him for in terms of wanting more power.

As for the comparison between Gohan and Goku.... Remember when Goku powered up to SSJ3 against Fat Buu, and Kabito stated that Saiyan powers aren't meant to be felt from this far away? (From the planet of the Kais) Now flash forward when Gohan is owning Super Buu effortlessly. Clearly Goku can sense Gohan's ki from that exact same planet Kabito stated would be too far to sense anybody else. Get where I'm going? Anyone who says Gohan is inferior to SSJ3 Goku has nothing to back this up. Plus, Goku's reaction of Gohan unleashing his potential, should say something as well.

I don't recall saying anything about anybody being sensed from Kaioshin realm.
I don't even know why you brought it up; you're not saying Goku wasn't sensed are you? Because that's horribly untrue if you are. Goku's reaction doesn't really say much definitive either. It's also (strangely) possible that Goku somehow grew stronger for the final battle, I won't try to explain what happened in that regard, because I don't really know, I just know what the final result was.

It's a little rude to say "nothing to back it up" when I just listed out a bunch of sources that say under no uncertain terms that Goku is the strongest; twice in Daizenshuu 2, Vegeta's word in the final battle, implication that Gotenks did not surpass Goku in Daizenshuu 7, while at the same time every single source only ever refers to Gohan being stronger than Gotenks (not established stronger than Goku), what's shown in the anime on more than one occasion, and even a statement by Toriyama in an interview stating that Goku is the strongest in the universe. One could say the interview was being vague, but if Goku's not stronger than Gohan in the end, then Goku literally hasn't been the strongest since Freeza. I'm not sure it really makes a whole lot of sense, but neither does anything surrounding Gotenks, and that's what I'm told. I'm trying not to over-complicate the series's ability to end on a high note for the main character.

Honestly, one doesn't need to think Goku > Gohan to realize Pure Buu > Evil Buu, it just so happens that some of the same sources that call Pure Buu stronger than Gohan just happen to refer to Goku as second strongest—there's more for both Goku and Pure Buu on that front anyway. The fact that it stands even after removing more than one source of proof demonstrates how solid the ground it stands on is.

It's kinda like the SSJ1 or 2 Gohan vs Dabura thing. I can see the opposition's angle, and indeed I was a part of the Super Buu side years ago, but only one of the two is stated fact. Things just started being a lot clearer to me once I stopped looking at the series like a big collection of power levels (or specific art techniques) and just looking at like a story.

It's the Ancient Root of All Pure Evil reverting to it's Original Unassuming True Form, being treated as a bad thing compared to the situation before and an Attempt at Fixing Things going to "Things just got Worse", Buu stated to have lost power in the past and stated by other characters to be powering up, then getting into a Climactic Final Battle with the Shonen Main Character with All of Humanity needing to Combine Their Power for a Last Attack with the Universe on the Line.

The Tropes are so thick you could cut them with a knife. If with all of the above being true, the anime directly commentating on his relationship to other forms of Buu as "he's stronger" with no directly contradicting information present, and being backed up by everything to the level of EVERY. SINGLE. Video game making him without question stronger than Evil Buu, something more official than those sources comes along and proves that Evil Buu is stronger than Pure Buu, I'll eat my boot.

[Darkprince410]

I just read through some Manga scans, it appears only ONE of the Kai's weakened Buu,

I know that's what the Viz says, but Herms has gone through this, that's not what the original says, it's rather vague because there's no true plural in Japanese—which I know from my personal experience as true too.

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The dub contradicting the Viz just goes to show how ambiguous the statement is.
Again I have to ask, if Kaioshin and Kibito can't be used to give Buu energy, Buu literally CANNOT absorb Vegetto, and Dai Kaioshin made him weaker, why is South Kaioshin the black sheep against all indication that it's just a Kaioshin thing (and also in terms of just making Buu way stronger than he should be for how strong Kaioshins are given the Z Sword thing)? Especially now that it's absolutely confirmed they have a different type of ki? Setting up South Kaioshin to be such a huge outlier in any area, let alone two despite any indication of the sort makes the opposite of sense.

Think of it this way. If you were to absorb someone and noticed it made you weaker, WOULD you make the SAME mistake TWICE by going on absorbing yet another Kai making you even weaker?? There's no logic in this. Also, Buu clearly has a mastered Ki sensing ability. He zapped himself exactly where Goku and Vegeta were located after going on a multi planet rampage across the galaxy. So please don't tell me he can't tell his own power from a previous point in time.

Buu wasn't purely motivated by power. He acquired a heart and a mind out of it.
Again, Evil Buu was not panicking that he would lose power, and Goku and Vegeta noted that very specifically. He explicitly freaked out because "I won't be "me" anymore!", which was almost definitely lead up to "“H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”". He was going to lose his sense of identity and knowledge. His love of candy, his cunning, his ability to speak and think and feel, his acquired memories (which we know he has from his mental attacks at Gohan).

Would you surrender those for power? Everything you are and love and think?

What he actually remembers if anything from being from Pure Buu is questionable at best, but whether it's genuine memory, just an idea of what it was like like some sort of severe alcohol impaired memory, or a complete void is unknown. If his motivation was purely power he would just spit out Dai Kaioshin at least and he didn't. He liked himself, and that's not really something to blame him for in terms of wanting more power.

As for the comparison between Gohan and Goku.... Remember when Goku powered up to SSJ3 against Fat Buu, and Kabito stated that Saiyan powers aren't meant to be felt from this far away? (From the planet of the Kais) Now flash forward when Gohan is owning Super Buu effortlessly. Clearly Goku can sense Gohan's ki from that exact same planet Kabito stated would be too far to sense anybody else. Get where I'm going? Anyone who says Gohan is inferior to SSJ3 Goku has nothing to back this up. Plus, Goku's reaction of Gohan unleashing his potential, should say something as well.

I don't recall saying anything about anybody being sensed from Kaioshin realm.
I don't even know why you brought it up; you're not saying Goku wasn't sensed are you? Because that's horribly untrue if you are. Goku's reaction doesn't really say much definitive either. It's also (strangely) possible that Goku somehow grew stronger for the final battle, I won't try to explain what happened in that regard, because I don't really know, I just know what the final result was.

It's a little rude to say "nothing to back it up" when I just listed out a bunch of sources that say under no uncertain terms that Goku is the strongest; twice in Daizenshuu 2, Vegeta's word in the final battle, implication that Gotenks did not surpass Goku in Daizenshuu 7, while at the same time every single source only ever refers to Gohan being stronger than Gotenks (not established stronger than Goku), what's shown in the anime on more than one occasion, and even a statement by Toriyama in an interview stating that Goku is the strongest in the universe. One could say the interview was being vague, but if Goku's not stronger than Gohan in the end, then Goku literally hasn't been the strongest since Freeza. I'm not sure it really makes a whole lot of sense, but neither does anything surrounding Gotenks, and that's what I'm told. I'm trying not to over-complicate the series's ability to end on a high note for the main character.

Honestly, one doesn't need to think Goku > Gohan to realize Pure Buu > Evil Buu, it just so happens that some of the same sources that call Pure Buu stronger than Gohan just happen to refer to Goku as second strongest—there's more for both Goku and Pure Buu on that front anyway. The fact that it stands even after removing more than one source of proof demonstrates how solid the ground it stands on is.

It's kinda like the SSJ1 or 2 Gohan vs Dabura thing. I can see the opposition's angle, and indeed I was a part of the Super Buu side years ago, but only one of the two is stated fact. Things just started being a lot clearer to me once I stopped looking at the series like a big collection of power levels (or specific art techniques) and just looking at like a story.

It's the Ancient Root of All Pure Evil reverting to it's Original Unassuming True Form, being treated as a bad thing compared to the situation before and an Attempt at Fixing Things going to "Things just got Worse", Buu stated to have lost power in the past and stated by other characters to be powering up, then getting into a Climactic Final Battle with the Shonen Main Character with All of Humanity needing to Combine Their Power for a Last Attack with the Universe on the Line.

The Tropes are so thick you could cut them with a knife. If with all of the above being true, the anime directly commentating on his relationship to other forms of Buu as "he's stronger" with no directly contradicting information present, and being backed up by everything to the level of EVERY. SINGLE. Video game making him without question stronger than Evil Buu, something more official than those sources comes along and proves that Evil Buu is stronger than Pure Buu, I'll eat my boot.

1) If the Daizenshuu helps to establish that it's just the Dai Kaioushin that weakened Buu, then that does more to support that both didn't weaken them than the anime suggesting that both did weaken them.

2) Vegetto wasn't absorbed by Buu because he put up his aura to block the absorption effect, not because Buu physically couldn't absorb him. Sure, Buu's internal environment did dispel the effects of the earrings, but that doesn't mean that Vegetto might not have been absorbed correctly if he hadn't used the aura. The manga basically confirms though Goku's dialogue though that South Kaioushin did strengthen Buu, as he makes a direct comment towards Buu having weakened to the point that they could finally do something against him, whereas he established they couldn't when it came to Evil and South Kaioushin Buu.

3) You're going with just one interpretation of the Daizenshuu entry, whereas if you look at the context of the entry as well as the info we see in the manga, rather than it being something along the lines of Gotenks only surpassing Vegeta after he reached Ssj3, it could strongly be argued that the Daizenshuu entry is meant to suggest that Gotenks in his base form surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta, thus having not surpassed Goku in the context of that entry (since Ssj3 Goku would still be stronger than base Gotenks), but would still have Gotenks several times stronger than Goku.

This is supported by the notion that Ssj Gotenks, before the Room of Spirit and Time, would need to be stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta for either Goku or Piccolo to even suggest Gotenks being strong enough to beat Fat Buu. Goku established they should be, and Piccolo and the others never once questioned or commented against that fact when Ssj Gotenks first formed. Later, when the boys had finished training in the Room of Spirit and Time, and Gotenks formed while in his base, Piccolo was amazed by how powerful they had become, and suggested that they might have a chance as they are in their base form. Now, despite the fact we know they weren't powerful enough in their base, for him to suggest they could stand a chance against him, when he was certain that pre-RoSaT Ssj Gotenks wouldn't stand a chance against him, indicates a huge increase in power, and easily enough to put him above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus fulfilling the Daizenshuu entry.

The manga already establishes that Ssj Gotenks had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta, so the only way for the Daizenshuu entry to really work is if he had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta while in his base form.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I don't even know why you brought it up; you're not saying Goku wasn't sensed are you? Because that's horribly untrue if you are.

Nope, I wasn't saying that. Just laying it out there that it seems like only the power sources coming from Goku and Gohan were able to be sensed from that planet. The way Kabito carried on about Goku's power during the SSJ3 transformation, its as if he couldn't feel anybody else's energy (maybe besides Buu's). Both of their powers were large enough that the ki signals shot out to further reaches of the cosmos. That was more of my point.

[Darkprince410]

I don't even know why you brought it up; you're not saying Goku wasn't sensed are you? Because that's horribly untrue if you are.

Nope, I wasn't saying that. Just laying it out there that it seems like only the power sources coming from Goku and Gohan were able to be sensed from that planet. The way Kabito carried on about Goku's power during the SSJ3 transformation, its as if he couldn't feel anybody else's energy (maybe besides Buu's). Both of their powers were large enough that the ki signals shot out to further reaches of the cosmos. That was more of my point.

Taking that into account, there's also the fact that Goku fully expected to be able to sense Ssj Gotenks from Kaioushin Kai, prior to the boys entering the Room of Spirit and Time. That means that he expected Ssj Gotenks to be an Ssj3 tier.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Maybe once the full color manga gets to the Boo saga, Akira Toriyama could perhaps clear some confusion up in the "Q&As with Shueisha & Toriyama" sections. I mean is it seriously too much to ask for the author himself to clarify the power of Boo? And don't give me that bullshit that he just "forgot" because with that logic, then he forgot how powerful Cell or Freeza is, and if you think that, then Battle of Gods isn't as consistent as everyone here thinks it is. Would it seriously be the end of the world if the subject was finally brought up in one of his modern interviews? Lol. I mean don't get me wrong. This has always been a fun subject, but if I were Toriyama, I would have gave the fans an answer long ago.

I myself agree with Evil boo > Pure boo, but only until the Z sword topic comes up as well as Goku/Vegeta's thoughts on the idea of Pure boo returning after his defeat and doing everyone in, which wouldn't add up to Gohan/Gotenks being > Pure boo which therefore contradicts Goku saying he is no match for Evil boo yet saying that he can manage Pure boo without fusion. The Z sword topic seems to make the Evil boo supporters come up with this theory that the South kaioshin never attempted to pull it.
I do believe that South kaioshin had Pure boo on edge which is why he absorbed him. But I don't think it had to do with his raw power. I think South Kaioshin's magic is what increased his ki dramatically. Remember when East kaioshin used his magic against SSJ2 Gohan at the budokai and Gohan couldn't escape it despite Gohan being several times stronger? I think it could have been sort of like that with South kaioshin and Pure boo, except that the extent of his magic was way more powerful.

[Hugo Boss]

I recall some guidebook's statement about Kid Boo being the strongest of his time, I don't remember if it is Daizenshuu or another anime comic. Either way, if South Kaioshin is not capable of pulling the Z Sword out, how much power could he add to Pure Boo to the extent that he jumps from SS3 Goku's level to above Super Boo's level of strength?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think it was ever stated that he tried. Only that countless Kaioshin's have tried to but couldn't.

Not saying he did or didn't. Just saying there's no way to know for sure. I also doubt absorbing the Kaioshin's would be a simple additional process. They seemed to have weird effects on Boo.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I don't think it was ever stated that he tried. Only that countless Kaioshin's have tried to but couldn't.

Not saying he did or didn't. Just saying there's no way to know for sure. I also doubt absorbing the Kaioshin's would be a simple additional process. They seemed to have weird effects on Boo.

Which is why I think that in terms of raw power, South Kaioshin is weaker than Pure boo. What gave Pure boo a hard time defeating him was his god like feats.
East kaioshin is clearly capable of stopping SSJ2 Gohan in his tracks as proven at the Budokai regardless of Gohan being far stronger. South Kaioshin being the strongest one, by default, made Boo's power rise to such an intensity due to his godlike abilities whereas Dai Kaioshin's happy nature which would also be godlike is what decreased his power.
These godlike features are what gave South Kaioshin the upperhand therefore resorting into Boo absorbing him. He absorbed Dai Kaioshin because he simply had no self control still. This is my interpretation and I will stick to it unless proven false otherwise. Because I simply can't see any basis anywhere in the manga saying that South Kaioshin never pulled the Z sword.
With this interpretation, it's still safe to say that Buff boo > Evil boo > Pure boo.

[gojirason]

1) If the Daizenshuu helps to establish that it's just the Dai Kaioushin that weakened Buu, then that does more to support that both didn't weaken them than the anime suggesting that both did weaken them.

But it doesn't.
It says that Buu's ferocity and power were diminished when he absorbing Dai Kaioshin. It says nothing to the effect of "this one weakened him and this one didn't/this one made him stronger".

I'm about to go ask a question in the translation thread, since I'm looking at the Daiz 7 entry for Buu and I'm not quite seeing it the way Herms translated it for certain, and I want to double check before I make any claims in that regard.

2) Vegetto wasn't absorbed by Buu because he put up his aura to block the absorption effect, not because Buu physically couldn't absorb him. Sure, Buu's internal environment did dispel the effects of the earrings, but that doesn't mean that Vegetto might not have been absorbed correctly if he hadn't used the aura.

I shouldn't have to say anything past the bold. If his body dispels the fusion, he can't keep the fusion absorbed. It's not as if his body dislikes fusion entirely, it certainly didn't dispel the Metamorese fusion despite the bond being much weaker. It only started acting funky once the Kaioshin entered the equation. The implications of which are being completely handwaved as irrelevant for some reason.

The manga basically confirms though Goku's dialogue though that South Kaioushin did strengthen Buu, as he makes a direct comment towards Buu having weakened to the point that they could finally do something against him, whereas he established they couldn't when it came to Evil and South Kaioushin Buu.

That's not true at all. Nowhere was his power mentioned there, just his physical size, and it's clearly meant to be proved wrong 5 seconds later with them not being able to do anything about him destroying Earth.

In either event it's flat out contradicted by "knows-the-situation-better-will-and-now-offer-exposition" Kaioshin who only started freaking out after Buff Buu started shrinking. He watched him get buff quietly, but didn't freak out until he started losing body mass, and completely lost it when Buu was done transforming. If Dai Kaioshin was the only one who caused him to lose his savagery and Buff Buu is also more powerful than Pure Buu there's absolutely zero reason to start freaking out when he started getting weaker and freak out even more when he finishes transforming; it would make him an actual inexcusable retard, and not what he is—the most knowledgeable person on Majin Buu about to get into exposition on him in which the subject of him having gotten weaker in the past comes up at all, and leaves Elder Kaioshin sweating at the implications.

The other issue entirely is that Buu went from massive exertion to completely calm, and we've already seen Buu suppress himself past what they can feel reliably—both Fat and Evil Buu, actually. Goku and Vegeta were also complaining about him still changing and how they'd wish he'd knock it off after he started shedding weight. If his ki was going down I'd imagine they'd be in a better mood and not want it to actually stop.

Everything about the scene is clearly intended to Goku and Vegeta's ignorance while the reader sees Kaioshin freaking out literally side by side from panel to the next. It's a classic example of dramatic irony if I've ever seen one.

dramatic irony, in literature, a plot device in which the audience’s or reader’s knowledge of events or individuals surpasses that of the characters. The words and actions of the characters therefore take on a different meaning for the audience or reader than they have for the play’s characters. This may happen when, for example, a character reacts in an inappropriate or foolish way or when a character lacks self-awareness and thus acts under false assumptions.

How much more blatant can it get?

3) You're going with just one interpretation of the Daizenshuu entry, whereas if you look at the context of the entry as well as the info we see in the manga, rather than it being something along the lines of Gotenks only surpassing Vegeta after he reached Ssj3, it could strongly be argued that the Daizenshuu entry is meant to suggest that Gotenks in his base form surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta, thus having not surpassed Goku in the context of that entry (since Ssj3 Goku would still be stronger than base Gotenks), but would still have Gotenks several times stronger than Goku.

I'm sorry but no. Under absolutely no reasonable circumstances could the statement be construed to mean that Base Gotenks is better than SSJ2 Vegeta, and the only way it could possibly be construed that way is to try and get it to mean what you want it to mean and not what it actually says.
"Gotenks" means "Gotenks in his weakest form and not in general" and "Vegeta" means "Vegeta in his strongest form and not in general"? You might as well say "Goten is stronger than Goku" and actually mean it, and expect the reader to read between the nonexistent lines; obviously it means SSJ Goten and Base Goku. Obviously when it refers to both characters with the same forms in the exact same general fashion it means different forms for the two different characters.

When Vegeta called Gohan and Dabura weak, was he really saying he could kick their ass in base?

In regards to Goku it says quite a bit through omission. Why say Vegeta? Why say better than the second best? Why not specify the forms if it's apparently referring to a specific combination of forms to compare? Nevermind that it's a constant trend that "person x's strength" ALWAYS refers to their full power, as that's obviously the most relevant.
Then you end up ignoring that parts of Daizenshuu flat out state Goku is the strongest.I don't need to be dealing with "just one interpretation" to see that's the reason they said "stronger than Vegeta" but not Goku.

This is supported by the notion that Ssj Gotenks, before the Room of Spirit and Time, would need to be stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta for either Goku or Piccolo to even suggest Gotenks being strong enough to beat Fat Buu.

Something we're never shown he actually could do.
Piccolo had seen Evil Buu's power before he entered the RoSaT and he suggested that Gotenks could beat him in base but only matched him as a Super Saiyan 3. Why on earth should I take that seriously?

Goku established they should be,

His exact words when pressed were that it's a dangerous bet, like it's not a safe decision to make at all. He's already made it perfectly clear (in the same statement he says it's a dangerous bet) that he thinks it's more important that they're self reliant than they actually succeed, since there might eventually be someone worse and it's none of his business as a dead person.

and Piccolo and the others never once questioned or commented against that fact when Ssj Gotenks first formed. Later, when the boys had finished training in the Room of Spirit and Time, and Gotenks formed while in his base, Piccolo was amazed by how powerful they had become, and suggested that they might have a chance as they are in their base form. Now, despite the fact we know they weren't powerful enough in their base, for him to suggest they could stand a chance against him, when he was certain that pre-RoSaT Ssj Gotenks wouldn't stand a chance against him, indicates a huge increase in power, and easily enough to put him above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus fulfilling the Daizenshuu entry.

Even if all of that is true, there's no way the Daizenshuu meant something so ridiculously unintuitive and specific without any indication of such.

"A little stronger than Vegeta" shouldn't be enough to make Piccolo think he could beat Fat Buu anyway, let alone Evil Buu, so it still doesn't match anyway.

The manga already establishes that Ssj Gotenks had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta, so the only way for the Daizenshuu entry to really work is if he had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta while in his base form.

It didn't establish anything, it proposed a bunch of things that were never shown to be reliable. Especially Base Gotenks ever being greater than any Buu.

I do believe that South kaioshin had Pure boo on edge which is why he absorbed him. But I don't think it had to do with his raw power. I think South Kaioshin's magic is what increased his ki dramatically. Remember when East kaioshin used his magic against SSJ2 Gohan at the budokai and Gohan couldn't escape it despite Gohan being several times stronger? I think it could have been sort of like that with South kaioshin and Pure boo, except that the extent of his magic was way more powerful.

The problem with this is that his physical strength was his defining trait. His magic also has all of nothing to do with Buu's ki being greater if one views Evil Buu > Pure Buu.

It HAS to be his ki (which creates an entirely different set of issues on its own), and his ki has everything to do with his character-defining physical strength. Not his magic.

The greatest indication of how we fought is the filler, and he never used any magic there; he just used physical strength and ki attacks against a Buu that was toying with him.

We never see East Kaioshin fight with, or even use magic either. Even the godly version Materialization Sorcery is mentioned in the Daizenshuu as not actually being magic for them (which makes a great deal of sense with the "gods of creation" revelation), like it is for Akkuman and Dabura. And no, Elder Kaioshin's abilty to draw out hidden power and the potara are never classified as magic either.

Also Gohan could escape if he was stronger still; Kaioshin admitted doubt on holding Gohan at all, and he only needed to do so briefly when he was off guard. Goku was much stronger than Chaotzu at the 22nd Budokai too, but he wasn't stronger enough to brush off his chounoryoku, whereas Nappa was. Unless Kaioshin was actually close to Buu in a way that Gohan wasn't, it's incredibly unlikely that was enough.

You also create a situation where Fat Buu could beat Pure Buu due to having the "magical" abilities obtained from South Kaioshin, despite being weaker, or where South Kaioshin is stronger than Fat Buu, and neither one of those is not even remotely feasible.

I'm happy you see the issues with assuming South Kaioshin never tried his hand at the sword, but this is still just a different attempt to rectify the evidence with the conclusion instead of the other way around.

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Before this can be discussed any further it needs to explained WHY Babidi cannot use godly ki to restore Buu's power, and why exactly that doesn't apply to South Kaioshin despite applying to all the others. It's not something to be randomly handwaved, because other than that one implication to be connected later, there's literally zero purpose in pointing out it's unusable, similar to how there's zero purpose in pointing out Buu's ki was rising. Do you really think Toriyama was writing tons of random plot points that have absolutely no connection to the plot?
While they're at it they also need to explain why the un-sensible godly ki made Buu stronger to the senses. Or why that ki was sensed connected to Buu after it had been disconnected.
Even if South Kaioshin's godly ki made Buu stronger despite all indications, it should not have been sensed. That's a glaring issue in what is already a shaky assumption that makes no narrative sense either.

[Darkprince410]

1) Why would it make specific mention of what the Dai Kaioushin did to Buu's power if South Kaioushin's influence on him produced a similar effect? Logically speaking, if it only mentioned that absorbing the Dai Kaioushin negatively affected Buu, then no other absorptions affected him negatively.

2) Without actually seeing Vegetto get absorbed, we can't say for certain what would have happened. Because he put his barrier up and exposed himself to Buu's atmosphere after dropping it, we don't know what would have come into play had the absorption actually worked successfully.

3) Vegeta was the one that mentioned Buu's size. Goku though made specific mention to the fact that Buu was finally at a point to where they could manage to do something. When he and Vegeta were inside Buu's body, after they had reverted him to normal Evil Buu, he commented that Buu had grown weaker and that he was "almost there", as in almost to the point of being weak enough for them to be able to fight him on their own. Later, when Pure Buu formed, Goku exclaimed "We did it!" and that they'd be able to manage something now. Why would he say, "We did it!" unless something they were working towards (i.e. weakening him to the point that they could fight him on their own) finally came to be. Evil Buu, by Goku's own admission, was still too strong for them, but Pure Buu was at a level where he thought he could do something on his own.

Furthermore, Goku's not the kind of fighter to take his enemy's size into account in determining their strength. He knows that size doesn't matter, and wouldn't make any assessment of Buu's strength based solely on his size.

Besides, Kaioushin has been shown repeatedly to be extremely unreliable in terms of assessing strength (Vegeta vs. Pui Pui, Goku vs. Yakon, feeling that everyone would need to jump Dabura if they were to have a chance of winning, etc), so for him to be panicked over this form of Buu doesn't really mean much. Likewise, it could be argued that his fear of Pure Buu wasn't in terms of his strength, but his unpredictability, as well as the fact that it was that form of Buu in particular that killed what was essentially his family. Any person that came across the killer of their entire family would undoubtedly feel extremely anxious and nervous, being more an irrational fear based on personal experience than just a general threat.

4 and onward) As said, given that there's every bit of evidence supporting that Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta before the boys enter the Room of Spirit and Time, the only way the Daizenshuu entry would work is if it meant that base Gotenks had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta afterward. Goku thought it was a gamble yes, but he was still confident that once the boys mastered the fusion dance, they'd be able to beat Fat Buu, even going as far as to say that they wouldn't need the Room of Spirit and Time. When Ssj Gotenks actually physically forms, Piccolo certainly didn't say anything to suggest that he was anything less than what Goku had said he'd be. Likewise, take into account that Piccolo outright states that Evil Buu is more powerful than Fat Buu (thus making him far more powerful than Ssj2 Vegeta), and that Ssj Gotenks (before the Room of Spirit and Time) wouldn't stand a chance against Evil Buu. Then, when the boys fuse while inside the Room of Spirit and Time, Piccolo comments that they might actually have a chance, and this is without him knowing that they could transform after fusing.

Yes, Piccolo wasn't fully aware of just how powerful Evil Buu truly was, but he still established by his own words that Evil Buu was stronger than Fat Buu.

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

That Ssj Gotenks wouldn't stand a chance against him

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

And then that base Gotenks might stand a chance against him.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Given this, we have pretty clear evidence that Piccolo felt that Gotenks' base after the boys trained in the Room of Spirit and Time was well above that of Fat Buu's strength, which in turn puts his base above Ssj2 Vegeta's strength.

[Hitiro]

I am honestly surprised this is still a topic. No matter how much we argue the point people will refuse to consider the points raised and try to construe the evidence to fall into their beliefs about the characters strength. The whole Evil Boo vs. Pure Boo argument is basically the Superman vs. Goku of this franchise.

[Drayenko]

Not really. It is expressed clearly in the manga. If some people want to be blind they sure can, but that doesn't change what the manga shows.

[Hitiro]

Not really. It is expressed clearly in the manga. If some people want to be blind they sure can, but that doesn't change what the manga shows.

Same happens in Goku vs. Superman threads where people ignore valid evidence. A lot of Superman fans often say because Goku never demonstrates planet busting that he can't do it. Despite Goku exceeding every character that has shown some sort of busting feat(Roshi, Piccolo, Freeza). They also ignore things like punching ability versus strength feats. We all know that Goku doesn't hold a candle to Superman in terms of sheer strength. But sheer strength doesn't mean Superman can punch any better than Goku. The speed of the battles in Dragonball seem to suggest that Goku is above Superman in terms of punching ability.

Not that Goku can beat every Superman iteration, there are a lot of OP Superman versions out there that Goku would get destroyed by. But saying Goku couldn't beat any of them is pretty funny.

So that's how I see this thread right now. No matter how much we argue over the facts there are going to be fans who construed those facts to make their favourite character have the upper-hand. Whereas the sensible people clearly understand where these characters stand.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Not really. It is expressed clearly in the manga. If some people want to be blind they sure can, but that doesn't change what the manga shows.

I agree. I've yet to find a manga panel of Goku saying "this boo is stronger than the previous boo and I admit to underestimating him based off of his size, but I can beat him if I gather my ki which means I lied when I told you that I couldn't defeat the Evil boo when we were inside Majin boo's body, so I am actually stronger than Gohan and Gotenks."

[DannyDBZfanforever]

It is quite obvious that Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks. I hope one day,Shueisha, tell us how big is the difference. Many people think that SSJ Gotenks is equal in power to the Full Power SSJ 3 Goku, and SSJ 3 Gotenks is eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. In my opinion, the difference is not so Big.

[dbgtFO]

It is quite obvious that Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks. I hope one day,Shueisha, tell us how big is the difference.

Doubtful.
Though revealing it in one of the those Q&As or Toriyama Answers featured in the Full Color Comics would be the ideal place for that.
Chances are we'll get more obscure information like #16 is actually based on Dr. Gero's long lost son!

[OWmyDragonBallz]

It is quite obvious that Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks. I hope one day,Shueisha, tell us how big is the difference.

Doubtful.
Though revealing it in one of the those Q&As or Toriyama Answers featured in the Full Color Comics would be the ideal place for that.
Chances are we'll get more obscure information like #16 is actually based on Dr. Gero's long lost son!

If they actually revealed the power of the characters of the Boo saga in the Q&A section, it would be incredible. Have they discussed powers before in the full color manga interviews?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

It is quite obvious that Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks. I hope one day,Shueisha, tell us how big is the difference. Many people think that SSJ Gotenks is equal in power to the Full Power SSJ 3 Goku, and SSJ 3 Gotenks is eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. In my opinion, the difference is not so Big.

I have SSJ3 Gotenks 8-10 times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. I don't know why people think that Post rosat base Gotenks is equal to or greater than his Pre rosat SSJ state. Since when has it been established that your base could reach that magnitude. Especially in so little time?
When Goku and Gohan trained in the ROSAT, did Goku's base state surpass his pre rosat SSJ? It's quite the same logic here. It makes no sense.

If you believe this logic, then you believe that Base Goku > Freeza.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Can we assume that the transformation SSJ increases in the same proportion the fusion and the base form of a simple saiyan?

Base Goku x 50 = SSJ Goku
Base Gotenks x 50 = SSJ Gotenks????

In the movie Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!, I do not see much difference between Base Gotenks and SSJ Goku. Aka takes a few blows from Gotenks, but Aka is not defeated by Gotenks. Rather, SSJ Goku stops the attack of Aka with a Kamehameha and Goku defeats Aka with a single punch.

Plus:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

This is from Herms.

look at this "We’re almost there!"This little phrase shows that the difference may not be so big (between SSJ 3 Goku and SSJ 2 Vegeta Vs Evil Majin Buu)